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New Start

After 30 years of lurking, dreaming and drooling, Ive finally retired from one of my two jobs (USAFRes), have kids out of the house (ish), and finished a knashing due dilliegence process. Results - final decision made to build an RV-10 using both QB kits available. I have lots of concerns about skills and ability and problem solving. Not so much about motivation. Many things I have succeeded at in life were due to the fact that I just refused defeat - hopefully that will carry me through this. Kit purchase is in progress. I do have a couple of questions I could use some guidance on...

1) Tools. In addition to the complete set of Cleveland RV build tools, what else would you recommend? I see people using drill presses etc. I do plan on a pneumatic riveter.
2) Air Compressor. I may farm out paint but want the option. Is there a consensus on minimum gallons, output, hp etc...? Any particular brand/model?
3) Work Shop. I have a 24X24 extra detached garage. Insulated, heated and cooled. Lighting is decent. Would you recommend moveable floor worklamps? Work tables - recommended size and height?
4) Probably one of my biggest concerns is the ?I don?t know what I don?t know?. Please feel free to share any ideas for planning, organizing, executing etc...
5) Documenting. KitLog Pro? Something else?
6) RV builder courses. Which one?

I am in Perry GA, a couple hours south of ATL. If any of you are within driving distance and want a gopher boy when doing the unfamiliar, like fiberglass etc..., I?ll be happy to help or just observe.

Special thanks to Van?s East Coast Rep Vic Syracuse for patiently allowing my spousal unit and I to crawl all over both airplanes and for having the patience to answer my endless questions. Look forward to the journey and participation in the forum.

VR

Hutch
 
I believe that Synergy Air will be opening a southern division at Newnan airport (KCCO) on or about July 1 of this year. You might want to consider at least taking the fundamentals and empennage class with them.

I traveled from the Atlanta area to Eugene for two weeks every month most of this past year to complete an RV-7A project. I had previously built an RV-10 tail and fuselage with them and plan to complete the -10 with them once they open down here.

If you can afford the time and the money, in my opinion - there is no better way to get a quality build in a reasonable amount of time.
 
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Many things I have succeeded at in life were due to the fact that I just refused defeat

THIS is the most important tool you have! Many times in the 17 years it took me to finish, I heard jokes and comments about my never finishing the project. Even close friends recommending that I sell the kit....well, that all quit and turned into praise in November 2016. My personal motto? Too stupid to quit!

As for all the rest of the tools, I'll let the others chime in on that, but you've already go the most important "tool" you need! Best wishes on your journey!
 
Welcome to the madness!
Tools: When someone says ?tool X is a must-have?, it usually isn?t. e.g., I built a 10 without a drill press. You?ll figure out what you need.
Compressor: if you want to paint you?ll need a high air flow rate. Also if you use an air drill or cut off tool. Rivet guns use little air. ?Oil-free? compressors are probably better for painting but they sure are loud.
Documentation.Keep a builders log of some sort. Take lots of photos, with yourself in them when possible. DARs seem to love them.
 
Tools

Though not necessary, I have found these to be valuable in my build:

DRDT dimpler. Very quiet, consistent dimples. I started with a C-frame "wack-a-mole" and then bought the DRDT. Can't tell a difference in dimple quality.

Drill press. Allows you to drill perfectly perpendicular holes over and over.

Scotch bright wheels. one on grinder, small one for die grinder.

1x42 tabletop sander.

Pneumatic squeezer.

Digital level.
 
Welcome to our special world where everybody has an opinion and not too many of them agree. :)

Here are MY recommendations.

1. Pneumatic squeezer with at least 3 yokes. Longeron yoke is my most often used. 4" and a 2" (I think) for tight spaces.
DRDT2. Its much quieter, faster and makes more consistent dimples. Consistent properly formed dimples are key to a good rivet set.

2. Get a big oiled compressor. They are much quieter while running and if you decide to paint you are going to have to buy an air/oil separator and an air dryer anyway. That air compressor is going to run a lot so the quieter the better. The larger the tank the less it will run.

3. Most important light I have is the LED head mounted light I wear on my forehead! Otherwise lots of overhead ambient light is enough.

4. Do something every day...even if its only 5 minutes of work...do something.

5. The easiest way to document is to use your plans. Simply write the date next to the step when you complete it. I also use a blog but thats more for friends and family. Its also nice to have pictures to show the FAA when it comes time to get your repairman's cert but its not required.

6. EAA courses are very handy...especially the electrical course.



1) Tools. In addition to the complete set of Cleveland RV build tools, what else would you recommend? I see people using drill presses etc. I do plan on a pneumatic riveter.
2) Air Compressor. I may farm out paint but want the option. Is there a consensus on minimum gallons, output, hp etc...? Any particular brand/model?
3) Work Shop. I have a 24X24 extra detached garage. Insulated, heated and cooled. Lighting is decent. Would you recommend moveable floor worklamps? Work tables - recommended size and height?
4) Probably one of my biggest concerns is the ?I don?t know what I don?t know?. Please feel free to share any ideas for planning, organizing, executing etc...
5) Documenting. KitLog Pro? Something else?
6) RV builder courses. Which one?
 
While I'm not building a -10 (I am building a -3B), I've some friends who are, using the QB kits. That said as a caveat, here are my answers.

1. VAF has many threads about tools that are worth reading and that will probably guide you. Tungsten bucking bars are much superior to steel and well worth the money. Cleaveland's dimple dies are superb, but the drill bits I got from them sure weren't. I now get mine from Gen-Av-Hdwr.

2. The bigger the tank, the less often it'll need to run. You may need 220 V to run it.

3. The size ought to be large enough, but it won't be anything more than that. Pay attention to tool and part management.

Lighting needs to be very good. I suppose that you can have too much lighting but I've never seen that.

4. VAF is your friend. Don't hesitate to ask. If there is a decent builder near you who can visit with you once in a while, that's priceless. They don't need to be a -10 builder as long as they are or have built an RV.

5. I use VAF. See the "My Build Project" section. Learn how to post photos.

6. No idea.

Good luck!

Dave
RV-3B, Skinning the fuselage
 
never have to many tools

I though I would need my drill press that I all ready owned, in hindsight have used very little. The 14" band saw has seen a lot of use. There is a lot of fiberglass work on a 10. a dremel too, orbital sander and a bench top belt sander come in handy. I used the DRT dimple tool love it, my 70 year old shoulders thank me. Built two EAA benches. Bought a Harbor Freight bench.

https://www.harborfreight.com/60-in-4-drawer-hardwood-workbench-69054.html
Good choice, four drawer storage for the little tools you use the most the clamp at the end works great holding a part while you rivet a another part to it. You can't always get the wife to come help that much.
Harbor freight tools work fine will last the build. use Cleveland's deburing tool that fits in a hex driver buy two HP https://www.harborfreight.com/60-in-4-drawer-hardwood-workbench-69054.html best buy for deburing
Have fun
 
For Fiberglass

I highly recommend PermaGrit tools for working with fiberglass. They make the job substantially easier...
 
Looks like people have covered most of what I would recommend.

As my -7 is for now literally an "in house" build I've made an extra effort to please my housemates by setting up the quietest shop possible.

A fellow builder of a lesser aircraft type turned me on to this compressor.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/California-Air-Tools-15-Gal-2-0-HP-Ultra-Quiet-and-Oil-Free-Air-Compressor-15020C/205773204

All told it's about as loud as a vacuum cleaner while running.
It should also be noted this compressor in truly in the house as seen (hopefully) from the picture below. (Note... apparently I need to work out the image thing again.)

I bought the cheapest bench-top drill press that looked reasonable. It has already been useful for a number of things.

You can't go wrong with a Weller WES51 soldering iron. Works great, and the tips are cheap. I recommend it to anyone getting into electronics and/or de-vinyling aircraft skins!

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Thanks for your responses. I took a lot of notes. I did go by Harbor Freight and checked out the recommended workbench, 20% off brought it to $128, so I picked that one up. Think I will build a couple of the EAA benches also. Can?t get a SportAir RV workshop until June, so until then I?ll be setting up shop, tooling, and playing musical chairs with multiple motorcycles, ATVs, dirt bikes and tractors. I?m fortunate that in addition to my main garage, which we use as a garage, I have a 24X24 workshop/garage and three other outbuildings...
 
Rely on support from Van's. I almost always found them useful. Follow the manual and their suggestions.
Try not to get hung up on how expensive things are when building an airplane. Once I came to grips with the concept, it's an airplane, the financial aspects were less bothersome.
Make sure before you buy you can get it out of the space you will build it in.
Make sure your significant others support your craziness.
Treat the experience like you would a college degree; at the beginning you never know everything you will need, it will be expensive, but you will be much more confident in the plane you fly in and you will be able to help others with their problems.
Resolve that completion will only occur if you regularly stick with it.
Eat the elephant one bite at a time. Many times I told myself, each rivet set or step completed was a tiny airplane in itself.
 
New Start reply

First - welcome! I can't say enough how amazing this group has been throughout my build process. I could not possibly agree more with one of the other folks here who mentioned the greatest tool you have is VAF. This forum is priceless going forward and full of incredibly helpful, and highly non-judgmental builders. That last part is key - never, never, never feel like you shouldn't ask because it's stupid. Chances are, someone else made the exact same mistake and they can talk you through it. I think you have some excellent answers already, but I figured I'd toss a few other things out there from the perspective of someone who isn't much further along (wrapping up the empennage now and wings get here in about three weeks!). So in answer to your questions, here is what I've learned and by all means it is merely what works for me.

1) I highly agree with another builder that said anyone who tells you something is indispensable is probably lying, so I'll simply point a few things out. The only two items I swear by are the DRDT dimpler and a tungsten bucking bar. The tungsten is so consistent it is hard to not fall in love with it. Outside of this, I would emphasize that more important to which tools you buy, quality will matter more. Tools wear out with repetition and building an airplane is nothing if it isn't repetition. Don't buy cheap bandsaw blades. You'll gouge the aluminum parts or worse, yourself. Drill bits are disposable - so when they dull, dispose and buy more. You can get them from Aircraft Spruce for about $2 each. Get plenty.
2) I split the difference. I don't have a 60 gallon compressor bolted to my garage floor, but I have a nice larger compressor that is good for spraying and running my air drill for long periods of time. Plenty of builders on here get away with pancake compressors - this is more of a personal choice so go with what you're comfortable with.
3) Well, I'm officially jealous of your workshop. You're set. Look up plans for the EAA Chapter 1000 work tables if you haven't already. Excellent design, durable, and cheap. Lots of builders here use them, I do.
4) Yeah - I'm still learning this too. My biggest lesson perhaps comes at the extremes. On one side, the fear and need for perfection will be incredible. You'll feel defeated the first time you mar a surface or something doesn't look perfect. You'll email and call Van's and more often than not they will say build on, but do it anyways. On the other hand, you will also go on incredible streaks that build incredible confidence, so remember to know when to call a foul on yourself.
5) I use an online blog for friends and family to keep track of. More than sufficient.
6) I just took the EAA Sport Air Workshops class for electronics this past November. Early, yes. But I intentionally took it before I'd need to do any wiring so I could start planning out my build. This is a spectacular course.

Keep in touch, happy building, and I do hope any portion of these ramblings was useful!
 
Congratulations on starting the RV-10 building journey. I have found it to be both rewarding and sometimes maddening, but overall well worth the efforts.

Regarding tools, don't get too concerned with buying everything you need before the empennage kit arrives. There are of course many specialized tools you will need immediately for the empennage, but most of those are included in the Cleveland kit you have purchased. I started out with a similar set of tools, and have added to these during the build as new types of work required additional specialized tools.

I started with a couple of the EAA work benches plus one other similar but more square bench made from leftover wood, and have been very happy with just the 3 work benches. I also installed a number of additional overhead fluorescent shop lights, and added a couple more as the project progressed. And I still make frequent use of flashlights. I would also suggest a good set of shelves for storage of parts, and a set of small parts bins with partitions for all the smaller nuts, bolts, rivets, etc. I started out with 3 for the empennage, and am now up to about 14 of them as I am getting near completion. Again, you don't have to buy them all at once.

As for larger tools, I found the following to be very valuable. You can succeed without these, but I found them to make life much easier and the build more enjoyable as a result:
- DRDT: Most needed during all the sheet metal work. Not as important as you get to the finishing kit.
- Pneumatic squeezer with 2 jaws. I probably could have used some additional specialty jaws a few times, but not often enough that I bought more. I found my squeezer used through this website.
- A good oil lubed, belt driven air compressor with a large tank. Much quieter than the cheaper compressors, but well worth it for lower noise and less frequent running, while still not running out of air. After a lot of research, I bought the Quincy 26 gal. vertical 2 hp compressor from Lowes. (Just checked and I don't see it listed anymore on Lowes website, but still available from Northern Tool.) I originally planned to re-wire it for 240 volt, but tried it on 120 volt and haven't had any troubles so left it there. Just focus on compressor output in CFM @ 90 psi rather than horsepower (this one is pretty good at 7.4 CFM @ 90 psi).
- A benchtop band saw is very useful. You could probably survive without it, but I'm glad I had one.
- A slow speed bench grinder (Rikon makes a reasonably good 8" one) with a 3M Scotch Brite wheel (wheel supplied with the Cleveland tools kit). I haven't found the smaller hand tool wheels supplied to be very useful though.
- A good tool box with base cart. I ended up buying a second base drawer unit later as I accumulated more tools and outgrew the original tool box combo. Keeping your tools well organized and put away at the end of each day makes finding them much easier when you need them, which saves time overall. Also, I recommend building a shelf under your EAA benches to hold sandpaper, gloves, paint sprayers, clamps, etc.
- A good quality pneumatic rivet puller (for pop/blind rivets). Pulling these with the hand puller is doable, but takes a lot more time and effort, and I found the finished rivets weren't as consistent as with the pneumatic puller. I originally bought the Harbor Freight puller as others said it was fine, but after returning 2 different ones for credit that didn't work right, I went with a bit more expensive but much higher quality puller, and have been very happy with it. It also has a smaller profile which gets into places the H.F. puller wouldn't have.
- I have found a good Dremel tool to be invaluable in working on all the fiberglass parts of the RV-10. You won't need one right away, but there is an awful lot of fiberglass trimming and cutting later in the build, and after trying several different methods I settled on the Dremel as best. I have mostly used it with the cheap diamond cutting disks from H.F., but also sometimes find the Dremel brand diamond cutting disk (larger diameter than the HF disks) to work better. I also have used it with the small sanding drums quite a bit. But buy the extended exchange warranty (mine was from Lowes) as I've gone through 2 of the Dremel motors during the build. All that fiberglass dust does a number on the tool over time, and when it quits you don't want to wait weeks for Dremel to repair it and send it back.
- In addition to the small 1/4" pneumatic drill, I have a 3/8" battery drill that I also use quite often. I mostly use the pneumatic drill as it is small, light, and good for most tasks. But for larger step drills and for keeping a reamer handy to quickly use when riveting and a rivet doesn't quite fit right it has been well worth having. I just used the one I already owned, but have had to buy new batteries for it.

I have learned many times over the years (often the hard way), it is best to invest in a good quality tool. In my experience, cheap tools can be very frustrating to use and often give poor results and do not last. For some one-time use applications they may be fine, but in most cases you are much better off spending more $ for a quality tool.

Hopefully something in this longer than planned message will be helpful. Any questions as you go are cheerfully answered by the participants of this invaluable VAF group. Or send me a PM if you want a single answer.

Enjoy the build!
 
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