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Building Questions

RGaines

Well Known Member
I have been following Jim Cone's progress on his pictures.

http://profile.imageshack.us/user/jim_cone/images/detail/#166/rv12wing41908009pt1.jpg

A bit of information about some of the pictures would be great:

Some of the cleco's look copper colored (#30) but others looked silver. Is that a reflection or are there mixed rivet patterns on the wings?

Jim's close quarters rivet tool is interesting. How is it used and how is it made, if it is a home made tool?

In one of the pictures it looks like a pick sticking in one of the holes. Is that a pick or some other tool?

I have wing kit #2 ordered so any information about the process is going to be a big help when it gets here. Sure is great that Jim is doing a "beta build" for the rest of us.

Richard
 
The silver "clecos" that I think you're seeing are the actual rivets. Pulled (blind) rivets have a stem that comes out of the head.
 
close quarter rivet tool

I have one of those swivel head pop rivet guns from sears. I took it to the grinder one day to make it fit close quarters, funny thing is I had to grind it down so far I can actually see the jaws working in it. That was several years ago and it is still working good.
 
I have been following Jim Cone's progress on his pictures.

http://profile.imageshack.us/user/jim_cone/images/detail/#166/rv12wing41908009pt1.jpg

A bit of information about some of the pictures would be great:

Some of the cleco's look copper colored (#30) but others looked silver. Is that a reflection or are there mixed rivet patterns on the wings?

Jim's close quarters rivet tool is interesting. How is it used and how is it made, if it is a home made tool?

In one of the pictures it looks like a pick sticking in one of the holes. Is that a pick or some other tool?

I have wing kit #2 ordered so any information about the process is going to be a big help when it gets here. Sure is great that Jim is doing a "beta build" for the rest of us.

Richard


I haven't figured out how to caption my pictures on imageshack or I would label them. All of the clecos are copper (#30). The other things you see sticking up are the stems from the rivets.

That is a pick you see in the picture. It is used to help line up the holes so you can put a cleco in the hole next to it.

That is a home made tool. It is made of steel because the previous three that I made out of aluminum broke. It is used to drive the pop rivets that are close to the rib webs. It allows the rivet puller to be at an angle to the rivet and still get a straight pull and get a good set on the factory head. If you just pull a rivet at an angle, the factory head will not seat squarely on the flange. This tool is actually a wedge that applies pressure to the side of the rivet that is towards the rib web so that it sets flat. I also found that it is very usefull to help push a rivet in a hole if the hole is not perfectly lined up. It gives you something to push on besides the little rivet head and the stem. You feed a rivet stem into the flat side and slide it down to the rivet head. Then you put the puller on the stem and push down to the tool and pop the rivet.

I am the guinea pig for the kit. So far, I am really impressed. There have been so few glitches with the kit that my progress is going very smoothly with very little head scratching. It is my hope that I find any little things that would make building less fun and help Van's fix them before you get your kit. It is a labor of love. The kit was only missing a couple of washers and some screws. Pretty impressive when you consider that it is new kit. The plans are very good, but you need to read them very carefully, especially when it says to leave open a rivet hole or an area that is to riveted later. They are marked with faint outlines and you need to study the drawings carefully so as not to miss them. For me, so far, so good.
 
Imageshack

Hey Jim... I kinda hate to ask, as I DO appreciate your posting of pictures. Any chance of you using another picture hosting site? I don't want to slow your progress down... but since you are almost done with your wings... you should have some time coming up before the next kit is ready! :D

I can't get the pictures to enlarge any when clicked on - all I get is the same size picture and the joy of an Imageshack Pop-UP! :mad: It would be helpful to be able to zoom in and see a little detail. :)

I'm a fan of Picasa... but I know there are others. There was a recent discussion on Imageshack... here: http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=27280&highlight=Imageshack

Respectfully submitted...

DJ

Grumble... grumble... I guess I better get some coffee and go to work! :p
 
Thanks a lot Jim!!

Jim ... thanks so much for posting all your RV-12 construction photos ... they are a joy to see ... and keep your words of wisdom coming!

If I could suggest www.photobucket.com to post your pictures ... they really do pop up in a much larger size ... especially for us old guys who haven't had 20/20 since the Carter Administration. :) It just takes a minute to sign up and you can upload many pictures with one click.

Thanks again for all your pictures!
 
Pre fluted ribs

Jim,
Am I seeing things, or are those pre-fluted ribs?
Jim (7A wings)

No, the ribs are not pre fluted. It takes about 19 seconds per rib to get them laying flat on the work bench. (I timed 10 ribs to get that average.) I admit that I know how to do it quickly and get an even flute between each hole because I teach metal working as a tech counsleor and in my educational sessions. The trick is to flute very little on each squeeze and press down as you flute. The rib will make a little knocking sound as you go along and when it it flat, the knock will stop. Turn the rib around and do the other side and you are done.
 
Contruction photos

Hey Jim... I kinda hate to ask, as I DO appreciate your posting of pictures. Any chance of you using another picture hosting site? I don't want to slow your progress down... but since you are almost done with your wings... you should have some time coming up before the next kit is ready! :D

I can't get the pictures to enlarge any when clicked on - all I get is the same size picture and the joy of an Imageshack Pop-UP! :mad: It would be helpful to be able to zoom in and see a little detail. :)

I'm a fan of Picasa... but I know there are others. There was a recent discussion on Imageshack... here: http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=27280&highlight=Imageshack

Respectfully submitted...

DJ

Grumble... grumble... I guess I better get some coffee and go to work! :p

Ok, I will set up Picasa tonight when I get home. I was never happy with Imageshack anyway, but that was one suggestion that was supposed to be easy to use. I will re-post some of the pictures on the Picasa site. I want to share my experience with you guys and I do take the pictures with a higher resolution than imageshack will allow so perhaps Picasa will do better. Look for the pictures tomorrow.
 
Thanks

Jim,

Thanks so much for the feedback to us future builders. I called Van's this am to see if they have an idea about shipping. They said a week or two. Won't be long now.

That is a very clever close quarters rivet tool.

Richard
 
Another Question for Jim Cone

Completed the wing spars today. After following the all the instructions and the rivet pattern in the last figure on the last page (wing spar) there are still some spaces that do not have rivets on the spar web. It looks like they should be there but there are no instructions to do so and the final drawing of the rivet pattern doesn't show it either.

Am I missing something? I called van's with the question and the guy said that had not seen the drawings yet, but had not heard of any problems from Jim.

Rich
 
Completed the wing spars today. After following the all the instructions and the rivet pattern in the last figure on the last page (wing spar) there are still some spaces that do not have rivets on the spar web. It looks like they should be there but there are no instructions to do so and the final drawing of the rivet pattern doesn't show it either.

Am I missing something? I called van's with the question and the guy said that had not seen the drawings yet, but had not heard of any problems from Jim.

Rich

Those holes are for the ribs that are riveted directly to the spar and not to the spar flanges that you riveted on the outboard section. I have found only a couple of minor glitches with the plans and the kit and they have already been addressed by Van's. I'm sure that you will get an update soon with the changes. One example is that the hole for the tie downs shows to drill to 3/16" and it should be 3/8". It is only a very few things like this that I have found. It is a great kit. It is very easy to build, nothing like a slow build RV of old. By the way, I posted more pictures today. The link is: http://picasaweb.google.com/JimCone1941/RV12Construction5608

Since I seem to have the only plans to answer questions, fire away and I will do my best to answer them.
 
Spar rivets

Jim,

Thanks. That helps a lot. My drawing did show that the tie down was a 3/8 so it must have been fixed before I got it.

When I cut the forward ribs there are parts of the tabs that must be cut (on the nose and back) of some. What tool do you use to make those cuts. The ones on the nose look very tight and I can't tell what to use. I don't have a metal bandsaw but if I did, I don't think it would fit.

Also in your new pictures, you mention priming some or part of the parts. What are you priming and how do you decide what do prime?

Another issue for me is the countersinking the flange of the stub spars. I have never done it so I may be going about it wrong. We machine countersink the flange but don't dimple the wing skin. I guess this pulls the skins into a bit of a dipple? My countersinking with a cage is very inconsistent. Is there a good technique for beginners to use.

Your help is much appreciated by me and all the other builders.

Rich
 
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Jim,

Thanks. That helps a lot. My drawing did show that the tie down was a 3/8 so it must have been fixed before I got it.

When I cut the forward ribs there are parts of the tabs that must be cut (on the nose and back) of some. What tool do you use to make those cuts. The ones on the nose look very tight and I can't tell what to use. I don't have a metal bandsaw but if I did, I don't think it would fit.

Also in your new pictures, you mention priming some or part of the parts. What are you priming and how do you decide what do prime?

Another issue for me is the countersinking the flange of the stub spars. I have never done it so I may be going about it wrong. We machine countersink the flange but don't dimple the wing skin. I guess this pulls the skins into a bit of a dipple? My countersinking with a cage is very inconsistent. Is there a good technique for beginners to use.

Your help is much appreciated by me and all the other builders.

Rich

Use left and right aviation tin snips. You will easily figure out which to use on which tab, because the snip gets in the way if you try to use the wrong one.

I only prime where flanges will be riveted to a spar or skin. You also have to prime the part on the flaperons that you make because they are not alclad.

The idea of the coutersink is to only remove enough material so that a rivet will sit flush when inserted in the hole. You need to adjust your cage so that when you push down on the collar, the pin and the cutter extend just far enough to do that. Look at a rivet from the side and then look at your countersink from the side with the collar retracted. The rivet and the cutter should look the same. Be sure to lock the collar after you make the adjustment. Each tooth on the adjustment collar is 1/2 of a thousandth of an inch. Start with the cutter at a shallow depth and make a cut. Then readjust a bit at a time and re-cut the same hole. When a rivet just sits in the hole with the head flush with the material, lock the collar. The skins are dimpled at the factory, except for three holes near the inboard edge that you dimple. Those dimples fit into the coutersunk holes. Hope this helps.
 
<SNIP>
I only prime where flanges will be riveted to a spar or skin.
<SNIP>

Jim, Thanks, I am interested in your thinking, not wanting to start a priming war, just YOUR reasoning.

Why only the flaperons? I did not see mention of priming the wing rib flanges and corrosponding surface on the inside of the wing skins? YOUR reasoning, or did I miss it?

Thanx,
Rudi.
 
Riveting in close spaces

If you want to see a presentation by the EAA on how to get a pop rivet in to a tight spot go to:
http://www.eaa.org/video/homebuilders.html?videoId=1531191588
Seems like the technique they present may be better than getting a rivet gun that operates in close quarters.
I also made a presentation last night at our local EAA chapter part of which was about building the RV-12. I mentioned the kit was inbound and that Avery Tools sells a tool kit for building the RV-12 for $1,300-ish dollars. The reponse was, as I read off some items, "I've got those, you can borrow it/them", and, "What we don't have, you can get at Harbour Tools". It sounded like nearly every tool I need is abailable from members of the chapter so I think I will accept their good offer. Worth checking with your local EAA chapter, if you are in one, or could be a good reason to join one.
Bart
 
Jim, Thanks, I am interested in your thinking, not wanting to start a priming war, just YOUR reasoning.

Why only the flaperons? I did not see mention of priming the wing rib flanges and corrosponding surface on the inside of the wing skins? YOUR reasoning, or did I miss it?

Thanx,
Rudi.


I did prime the flanges in the wing.

I know that it will take some time, but read the posts that I have made and you will see every step of the way, some building tips, and comments about priming. You will also see the pictures of my construction. The pictures on imageshack are not very good so don't bother with them. I have re-posted all of them on the Picasa site. There, you will see a tool that I made to pop rivets in tight places that is a better solution than the one shown on the EAA builders tips video, in my opinion.
 
Edge rolling needed?

Jim- have you found it necessary to use an edge roller to achieve good lap joints on the wing skins?
 
Rolling the edges

Jim- have you found it necessary to use an edge roller to achieve good lap joints on the wing skins?


I rolled one edge and it was ok, but it was hard to keep it even on the thin skin. I didn't roll the others and they turned out ok. I don't think that the pop rivets stretch the edges like hard rivets do.
 
Priming the Flanges

Jim - What primer do you use? Looking for something freindly. Rattle can or do you roll the primer on the flanges?

Marty, Davenport IA
Wings ordered! #88 (8-10 weeks, sigh!)
 
Jim - What primer do you use? Looking for something freindly. Rattle can or do you roll the primer on the flanges?

Marty, Davenport IA
Wings ordered! #88 (8-10 weeks, sigh!)

I mix up a small quantity of Sherwin Williams acid wash primer and paint it on with a small brush. The mixed primer will last for about two days before it is no longer recommended for use by the manufacturer. A little goes a very long way as you only put it on about two mils thick. A quart of solids and two quarts of acid will be more than enough to prime everything that you might want to prime. This is the same primer that Van's uses on the quick build kits.
 
Stall Warning Indicator

Any thoughts on omitting the Stall Warning indicator system. I have owned numerous airplanes including two RVs I've built and none with a Stall Warning. I don't really see the neccesity of it, just something else to maintain, besides it would be very difficult to repair/replace due to it's location. My intention are for this RV to be a Plain Jane EA-Built.
Gerry Chancey RV-9 & Cub(Both Flying)
RV-12 Under Construction
 
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Depends...

on how you build it. If you want to build as E-LSA it has to have what ever equipment the S-LSA has. If you go E-AB you can do what you want but your wing will still have the prepunch slot in the L.E. for the vane, and the covered access hole on the wing bottom (access for maintaining the stall sensor switch, etc.).
 
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