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5-point harness recommendations?

1

1flyingyogi

Well Known Member
I'm looking for a 5-point harness to replace my current 4-point, which is not doing a very good job of holding me in place. I just started aerobatic instructions last week and have a bruise on my left upper arm from hitting against the side and my head is hitting the canopy.

What are my options? Should I just ditch the current harness and buy a 5-point? (with ratcheting lap belt?) Or can I add a crotch strap to my existing harness and maybe a secondary lap belt also (either ratcheting or non-ratcheting)?

Maybe something like this? http://silverparachutes.com/acrobelt/

My other problem is that I'm spilling a ridiculous amount of oil all over the belly of my plane after each session. I'd like to get the Raven 1/2 Kit, but am not familiar enough to know if it's something I can install by myself. I used to work on cars when I was younger so I'm half decent with tools, but have no experience with aircraft. If anyone has some tips, I'd really appreciate it! Or let me look at your set-up if you're in Socal. ;) Thanks!

Brian
 
I've had Silver's acro belt in my Pitts for a couple of years now am pleased with the purchase. My RV4 and the S1S have about the same amount of cockpit room and the slightly less bulky acro belt seems to fit better. Unless you're into heavy negative maneuvers encountered in advanced and unlimited I'd advise the Silver acro belt.

Cheers, Hans
 
Hooker

I have the hooker harnesses, and the keep me in the seat. When I was flying the Pitts S2C, the harness had the ratcheting lap belt which I really liked, but no place easy to install that in a -4.
 
Hooker Ratcheting and 1/2 Raven

One of the best upgrades I made for aerobatics was my Hooker ratcheting harness. Prior to installing the Hooker, I had a standard five point harness. It was barely adequate to the task and quite uncomfortable during negative g maneuvers. The ratcheting harness secures me so firmly in the seat that I can leave my shoulder belts with a little slack. They don't even come into play. Whatever vendor you choose, I'd definitely recommend a ratcheting harness. The Hooker setup also includes a secondary (non-ratcheting) belt for added safety.
IMG_0972_zpsycmkhqv9.jpg

You should address your oil issue with either the Raven or Christen air/oil separator. I installed the Raven (commonly called the 1/2 Raven) system and it made an enormous difference in the cleanliness of the belly and oil loss. You'll still lose a little oil, especially if you do a series of figures that doesn't allow the separator to drain between them, but it is an order of magnitude better than what what you are seeing now. It's a pretty easy install. Cobbling together the hoses and fittings is the hardest part. Also, when you install the fittings in the separator, make sure they are tight enough when you get them to position you want them pointing. If not, be prepared to tap the hole further, don't over tighten!
IMG_0022_zpsfxetazhg.jpg

You can find some good information on both these subjects by searching either topic.

Best of luck,
Randy
 
Great info, guys. Thanks! Another question, is there anything fundamentally different b/t racing harnesses in aviation vs. those used in cars? The price difference is pretty dramatic. I'm thinking, as long as you can mount them, it doesn't matter, right?

Here's an example of some ratcheting and non-ratcheting harnesses for cars, which costs about 1/3 to 1/2 the price of aviation harnesses.

http://www.prpseats.com/product/ratcheting-harness/

http://www.jegs.com/i/G-FORCE/471/6240BK/10002/-1

http://www.jegs.com/i/G-Force/471/7...zpTP-IoyL2yexg3Q8Fl4ceVNoNf5D7PQw0aAny18P8HAQ
 
Padding!

1flyingyogi said:
Great info, guys. Thanks! Another question, is there anything fundamentally different b/t racing harnesses in aviation vs. those used in cars? The price difference is pretty dramatic. I'm thinking, as long as you can mount them, it doesn't matter, right?

Here's an example of some ratcheting and non-ratcheting harnesses for cars, which costs about 1/3 to 1/2 the price of aviation harnesses.

http://www.prpseats.com/product/ratcheting-harness/

http://www.jegs.com/i/G-FORCE/471/6240BK/10002/-1

http://www.jegs.com/i/G-Force/471/7...zpTP-IoyL2yexg3Q8Fl4ceVNoNf5D7PQw0aAny18P8HAQ
Click to expand...
The PRP product looks okay. The others, not so much. The biggest difference, I see between my Hooker Harness and the PRP is the padding for the waist straps. That makes a HUGE difference. Those thin little straps will be digging into you pretty good under a few negative gs. Remember, racing will NEVER subject you to more than 1g.
 
f14av8r said:
Those thin little straps will be digging into you pretty good under a few negative gs. Remember, racing will NEVER subject you to more than 1g.
Click to expand...

wikipedia said:
Turn 8 at the Istanbul Park circuit, a 190? relatively tight 4-apex corner, in which the cars maintain speeds between 265 and 285 km/h (165 and 177 mph) (in 2006) and experience between 4.5 g and 5.5 g for 7 seconds?the longest sustained hard cornering in Formula 1.
Click to expand...

Braking forces also approach and occasionally exceed 5 g in F1. Then there was that time Kenny Br?ck hit the fence in a Indy car and survived a 214 g crash. :eek:


To Randy's point, you will want padding on the straps for comfort. I fly with aerobatic Hookers (yeah yeah) similar to Randy's, and I'll add that the only downside is the wide double lap belts can be quite warm. The belts do their job very well, though.
 
If you intend to do a lot of aerobatics, the 3" Hooker with hip padding or similar. Very nice. Very $$.
However, I find 3" belts with all of the support to be a bit uncomfortable for just cruising around.
The 2" Crow is very comfortable and very easy on and off with the quick release buckle. Won't break the bank either. I would not recommend this buckle style if you intend to do any serious negative g's unless you have a secondary belt.
 
RBD said:
Braking forces also approach and occasionally exceed 5 g in F1. Then there was that time Kenny Br?ck hit the fence in a Indy car and survived a 214 g crash. :eek:


To Randy's point, you will want padding on the straps for comfort. I fly with aerobatic Hookers (yeah yeah) similar to Randy's, and I'll add that the only downside is the wide double lap belts can be quite warm. The belts do their job very well, though.
Click to expand...

Whoops, I meant to say no LESS than one g, meaning no negative, but I guess even that isn't true in a crash!
 
Mounting?

Randy,
Did you mount the ratcheting belt to the standard plans attach point? The reason I ask is because the Pitts and Decathalon attach points pull almost straight down, not back like would happen in the -4.
 
JonJay said:
If you intend to do a lot of aerobatics, the 3" Hooker with hip padding or similar. Very nice. Very $$.
However, I find 3" belts with all of the support to be a bit uncomfortable for just cruising around.
The 2" Crow is very comfortable and very easy on and off with the quick release buckle. Won't break the bank either. I would not recommend this buckle style if you intend to do any serious negative g's unless you have a secondary belt.
Click to expand...

Yeah, that's what's making it hard to decide. I'm just getting into aerobatics and so far I like it a lot, but not sure how far I want to take it. In it's current state, the plane has no inverted oil or fuel (I plan on getting the 1/2 Raven kit soon), and I do not plan on doing a whole lot of sustained negative G maneuvers. For now, I'll be happy to get to the point where I can do a decent job on the Primary sequence and just some recreational aerobatics, so I'm thinking the Crow harness will be ok?? I plan on using my current lap belt as a secondary.

Since more than half the time, I just cruise around with the wife, I think the Hooker harness would be a bit of a hassle and uncomfortable as you pointed out. I can always upgrade to that later on if needed. Plus Crow is just "down the street" from me and I can go pick it up in person. ;)
 
Saber25 said:
I've had Silver's acro belt in my Pitts for a couple of years now am pleased with the purchase. My RV4 and the S1S have about the same amount of cockpit room and the slightly less bulky acro belt seems to fit better. Unless you're into heavy negative maneuvers encountered in advanced and unlimited I'd advise the Silver acro belt.

Cheers, Hans
Click to expand...

why are the Silvers's not good for heavy negative maneuvers? Is it the lack of padding?
 
Last edited:
1flyingyogi said:
Yeah, that's what's making it hard to decide. I'm just getting into aerobatics and so far I like it a lot, but not sure how far I want to take it. In it's current state, the plane has no inverted oil or fuel (I plan on getting the 1/2 Raven kit soon), and I do not plan on doing a whole lot of sustained negative G maneuvers. For now, I'll be happy to get to the point where I can do a decent job on the Primary sequence and just some recreational aerobatics, so I'm thinking the Crow harness will be ok?? I plan on using my current lap belt as a secondary.

Since more than half the time, I just cruise around with the wife, I think the Hooker harness would be a bit of a hassle and uncomfortable as you pointed out. I can always upgrade to that later on if needed. Plus Crow is just "down the street" from me and I can go pick it up in person. ;)
Click to expand...

We've been flying with 3" Crow's in our RV-8 for almost a dozen years, and the same thing in our -3 for almost five. No issues, comfortable, inexpensive....I'll use Crow's anytime I have a choice!
 
How to argue with Dye?

Ironflight said:
We've been flying with 3" Crow's in our RV-8 for almost a dozen years, and the same thing in our -3 for almost five. No issues, comfortable, inexpensive....I'll use Crow's anytime I have a choice!
Click to expand...

At the great risk of arguing with a master - like Paul - I have to say this. There is NO SUBSTITUTE for a ratcheting harness. You simply cannot get the same level of restraint from a standard harness, I don't care who makes it. I don't know how much hard aerobatics Paul does but, if it's anything more than gentleman level, I'm surprised he isn't a ratcheting harness advocate.

I'm a nobody but, today I ratcheted myself into my RV-4 and excited a serious sequence of hard outside maneuvers. My butt never left the seat and my shoulder harnesses weren't digging into my shoulders.

If you are just goofing off and flying xctry, you don't need a heavy duty, dual point Hooker. If you want to get a little more serious, and be more comfortable, spring for the dual belt Hooker.

My 2c,
Randy
 
Single Attach Point

Michael Henning said:
Randy,
Did you mount the ratcheting belt to the standard plans attach point? The reason I ask is because the Pitts and Decathalon attach points pull almost straight down, not back like would happen in the -4.
Click to expand...

Hi Mike,
This is a judgement call. I attached both belts to the same, standard, attach point. Some argue that the belts should be attached to individual attach points to improve redundancy. Frankly, I'm not all that concerned with my attach point failing. A latch failure, or inadvertent acuation is a much more likely risk scenario in my mind. So, I went with a dual belt, setup using a single attach point.
Hope that helps,
Randy
 
f14av8r said:
At the great risk of arguing with a master - like Paul - I have to say this. There is NO SUBSTITUTE for a ratcheting harness. You simply cannot get the same level of restraint from a standard harness, I don't care who makes it. I don't know how much hard aerobatics Paul does but, if it's anything more than gentleman level, I'm surprised he isn't a ratcheting harness advocate.

I'm a nobody but, today I ratcheted myself into my RV-4 and excited a serious sequence of hard outside maneuvers. My butt never left the seat and my shoulder harnesses weren't digging into my shoulders.

If you are just goofing off and flying xctry, you don't need a heavy duty, dual point Hooker. If you want to get a little more serious, and be more comfortable, spring for the dual belt Hooker.

My 2c,
Randy
Click to expand...

I totally support everyone having their own opinion Randy - I simply express what has worked for me. Nope - I don't do the Tucker routines - hurt too much at my age. I currently fly Acro that is fun for me - loops, rolls, cubans, clover leafs, etc.

Paul
 
Abraham said:
why are the Silvers's not good for heavy negative maneuvers? Is it the lack of padding?
Click to expand...

Yes, it appears the hooker does have a bit more lap belt area to help with higher negative G forces. My ratcheting Silver has held me in place up to -6 g's and it can be felt in the upper thighs and lap area. I suspect the wider hooker would distribute that load over more inches and be a bit more comfortable. So it's a trade off in having a slightly less bulky set up verses one that offers a bit more support. For the RV type of acro I don't see the heavier belt being a necessity.

Cheers, Hans
 
crotch strap attachment

Where do you attach the crotch strap on the spar? Do you use one of the horizontal bolts that orient longitudinally or the bolt at the front of the spar that is vertically oriented? (See attached photo)

And I guess my seat cushions will also need to be modified. I was thinking of bringing it to an upholstery shop and have them make a small cut-out for the crotch strap to slide through? I guess I can cut it out myself also, but it may look too professional..

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3XXrCYpP8gua05OZlNMbHVMSzg/view?usp=sharing
 
Crotch Strap Mounting

Mine attaches to a bracket on the back of the spar. See photo. You may not have to modify your seat cushion. Just loop the crotch strap over the front of the cushion. If your harness is working properly, particularly if it's a ratcheting harness, your crotch strap won't normally have much if any load on it.

IMG_1002_zps134ue0p0.jpg
 
Thanks Randy. I'll try looping it over the front of the cushion, but judging from how far forward the cushion goes, I might have to end up modifying it.

f14av8r said:
Mine attaches to a bracket on the back of the spar. See photo. You may not have to modify your seat cushion. Just loop the crotch strap over the front of the cushion. If your harness is working properly, particularly if it's a ratcheting harness, your crotch strap won't normally have much if any load on it.

IMG_1002_zps134ue0p0.jpg
Click to expand...
 
Silvers

Abraham said:
Anyone have an answer??
Click to expand...

I didn't see any post in this discussion that suggested the Silver harness wouldn't be a good choice. My point is that, whatever manufacturer you choose, if you are serious about aerobatics, you should get a ratcheting harness. The Silver harness looks very similar to the Hooker and would probably work just as well.
 
my new harness is excellent!

I just got back from test-flying my new G-Force 5-point harness. It's 3" wide, has a spring loaded tensioning thing (I don't know what it's called) to prevent slippage, and for my purposes (recreational, beginner-level aerobatics with only occasional, quick negative-G maneuvers), it's excellent! During slow rolls, my harness held me in place perfectly. Once strapped in and tightened up, it stayed nice and tight the entire flight with no need to re-tighten.

To me, it seems like the perfect "in-between" harness (not as hefty and uncomfortable as a Hooker ratcheting harness, but more robust than some of the other non-ratcheting harnesses in aviation, like the 2" Crows). Of course, I'm saying this without having tried the other two, but just based on what others have reported. It's a bit bulkier than my stock Vans 4-point harness, but is 10x better at holding me in place for aerobatics. I'm completely satisfied. =)

If anyone is interested, I can try to find the link. G-Force makes many different harnesses, but this particular one is perfect for me (and anyone else who's doing beginner to intermediate-level aerobatics (and maybe even higher??)

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3XXrCYpP8guU0FRX0IwMk1iblU/view?usp=sharing
 
f14av8r said:
One of the best upgrades I made for aerobatics was my Hooker ratcheting harness. Prior to installing the Hooker, I had a standard five point harness. It was barely adequate to the task and quite uncomfortable during negative g maneuvers. The ratcheting harness secures me so firmly in the seat that I can leave my shoulder belts with a little slack. They don't even come into play. Whatever vendor you choose, I'd definitely recommend a ratcheting harness. The Hooker setup also includes a secondary (non-ratcheting) belt for added safety.
IMG_0972_zpsycmkhqv9.jpg

You should address your oil issue with either the Raven or Christen air/oil separator. I installed the Raven (commonly called the 1/2 Raven) system and it made an enormous difference in the cleanliness of the belly and oil loss. You'll still lose a little oil, especially if you do a series of figures that doesn't allow the separator to drain between them, but it is an order of magnitude better than what what you are seeing now. It's a pretty easy install. Cobbling together the hoses and fittings is the hardest part. Also, when you install the fittings in the separator, make sure they are tight enough when you get them to position you want them pointing. If not, be prepared to tap the hole further, don't over tighten!
IMG_0022_zpsfxetazhg.jpg

You can find some good information on both these subjects by searching either topic.

Best of luck,
Randy
Click to expand...

HI Randy,

Could you possibly show me more pictures of your hooker? Especially the lap belt...thanks
 
G-force link?

Like the g-force setup from the pics, can you tell me which setup you ordered?
Thanks!

1flyingyogi said:
I just got back from test-flying my new G-Force 5-point harness. It's 3" wide, has a spring loaded tensioning thing (I don't know what it's called) to prevent slippage, and for my purposes (recreational, beginner-level aerobatics with only occasional, quick negative-G maneuvers), it's excellent! During slow rolls, my harness held me in place perfectly. Once strapped in and tightened up, it stayed nice and tight the entire flight with no need to re-tighten.

To me, it seems like the perfect "in-between" harness (not as hefty and uncomfortable as a Hooker ratcheting harness, but more robust than some of the other non-ratcheting harnesses in aviation, like the 2" Crows). Of course, I'm saying this without having tried the other two, but just based on what others have reported. It's a bit bulkier than my stock Vans 4-point harness, but is 10x better at holding me in place for aerobatics. I'm completely satisfied. =)

If anyone is interested, I can try to find the link. G-Force makes many different harnesses, but this particular one is perfect for me (and anyone else who's doing beginner to intermediate-level aerobatics (and maybe even higher??)

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3XXrCYpP8guU0FRX0IwMk1iblU/view?usp=sharing
Click to expand...
 
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