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Hangar waiting list woes

M

millwright

I'm New Here
I live in a rural area and fly to the Bay Area for work. I have a hangar at the airport close to work since I stay there all week. I have been on a waiting list as #4 in line for a hangar at home for 1.5 yrs.. I was not too concerned with leaving my C-150 outside in the rain and snow, but recently bought a RV-4 and I am much more concerned now. Of the 6 county hangars, 5 have planes and 1 has a cooking trailer in it. I have asked the tenants that share the hangar without a plane if they would allow me to share the expense of the hangar and put my plane inside on the weekends. I have not received any feedback from them. I then contacted the county and spoke with the Airport Manager who is really the Supervising Engineer, the airport is just one of his responsibilities. I explained my concern to him and he said he would NOT do inspections on the hangars to see if they are used for aviation purposes. It is very easy to see why there is not any movement in the waiting list for hangars. I then asked if the county was going to add any hangars. He stated, not at this time but the county would probably lease me ground for a portable hangar.

I dont know what to do, Does anyone else have an Airport Manager that is too nice and "doesn't want to be the bad guy"?

I am looking into portable hangars at the moment, but don't want the added expense at this time. Looks like it is my only option though.
 
Does this airport currently or in the past receive any FAA funding/grants/etc.?

If so, there are some complex rules around situations like this.

If they ever took any money to build those hangars, most likely there is a requirement to use em for aircraft and not cooking trailers....

Google "Sponsors Assurance Agreement" for some interesting reading...
 
The Dreaded Waiting List

If you're #4 and have already been waiting 1-1/2 years, even bumping the trailer out isn't going to do you much good. If they're offering space for a portable, I'd take a hard look at that, otherwise you should probably look elsewhere. If federal funding is involved in new construction and nothing is currently in the works, forget that as well.
My last choice would be to leave the plane exposed to the weather.
Terry, CFI
RV9A N323TP
 
Supply and Demand

It is interesting to see the other side of the coin on hangar rentals. I just moved our project from Petaluma (O69) to San Carlos (SQL). San Mateo County takes a very hard line on aircraft usage for the hangars. You must have an airworthiness certificate. If you do not, you get to pay DOUBLE the hangar rent (mine is over $900/month right now because the plane isn't quite done). You must demonstrate that you have an aircraft in the hangar, either in the form of all of the parts of the aircraft, including the engine, or an airworthiness certificate. You have to show proof that the plane is in annual, and if it is not, you have 6 months to get it into annual, or you get booted.

Petaluma doesn't seem to know or care what goes on in the hangars. Both airports have waiting lists for the hangars, although for San Carlos it is considerably longer. It took me almost 6 years to get a spot. Now that I have it I'll probably keep it forever.

If it was me, and I was #4 on a waiting list for 6 hangars, and the airport manager offered to let me put up a hangar on the county property with an appropriately long lease (20-50 years no rent, they keep the hangar and get to charge property tax), I'd strongly consider calling #1-3 on the list and see if they wanted in on either one large hangar or a row of T hangars. Otherwise you're basically waiting for 6 people to pass away is my guess....
 
millwright said:
I was not too concerned with leaving my C-150 outside in the rain and snow, but recently bought a RV-4 and...
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Snow in the Bay Area?

I am fully expect to be moving to the Bay Area in the "not-too-distant future". Could be 6 weeks could be 6 months. But when I do I too am in your hangar situation. I'd split the cost of a temp hangar if you end up going that way. feel free to contact me offline 262-391-797three
 
krwalsh said:
San Mateo County takes a very hard line on aircraft usage for the hangars. You must have an airworthiness certificate. If you do not, you get to pay DOUBLE the hangar rent (mine is over $900/month right now because the plane isn't quite done). You must demonstrate that you have an aircraft in the hangar, either in the form of all of the parts of the aircraft, including the engine, or an airworthiness certificate. You have to show proof that the plane is in annual, and if it is not, you have 6 months to get it into annual, or you get booted.
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I'm sure this is their way to ensure that gas revenue is supported. Non-flying aircraft don't buy much gas do they?
 
Ditto on hangar waiting. I have be on the list for 4 years and #1 for nearly 2. I will be now looking at other airports.

I saw a hangar at Mt Hawley in Peoria with a camper and boxes stacked/packed nearly solid. Yes that is wall to wall, and floor to ceiling. Magnificent packing job. No airplanes to be seen. They do get public funds so I will be checking.

Good luck to us all.
 
Property Tax and Fuel

Mark Dickens said:
I'm sure this is their way to ensure that gas revenue is supported. Non-flying aircraft don't buy much gas do they?
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They also don't pay property taxes. I can assure you once I get the DAR to sign it off I'll get a property tax bill in the mail from the county.
 
apkp777 said:
Snow in the Bay Area?
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I am nearly certain that he was talking about a hangar at his "home" airport, not in the Bay Area. I am not aware of any airport around here that would let you build a hangar. Certainly not any of the San Mateo County airports, Palo Alto, nor Hayward. If I were you I'd put my name on a waiting list now, and expect to wait a long time, or start looking for a hangar share. An aircraft lift would make hangar sharing easy. For us EZ types we just slot them one under the other without a lift. Wow, could you actually fit 3 in a hangar with a lift and two EZs tucked in? Hmm...
 
Snow in bay area

The snow I was referring to is at my home airport in N. CA. I have a request in to the manager to get specific requirements on hangar. I know they require high wind and snow loads for a shop building. The way this guy is, I'll buy a used port a port and he'll tell me I can't put it up next to the other 4, 50 yr old port a ports on the field!
 
same with me

I'm moving up to Ashland, OR next month. I've been on a waiting list for a year. They also would lease me land for a private hangar, I just figured the cost would be prohibitive. Please post what you learn on portables.

BTW, I will be vacating a hangar at Reid Hillview (RHV) in San Jose. It has two other RV's in it. If anyone would like to take my spot, send me a PM.
 
Sorry, I didn't read your post clearly. Now I see that you are looking for hangar space in north CA and NOT in the Bay Area.

How has your commute been back and forth? That's something I am consider if/when I take a job at SFO.
 
Used to have this problem at Bowman, until "Something" happened and the city realized THEY would be on the hook for all the property in those hangars if the "non aviation" stuff began to burn... Now they inspect.
I think your airport "manager" wears too many hats and just doesn't realize his job probably hangs in the balance...
A friendly conversation might fix it...

millwright said:
Of the 6 county hangars, 5 have planes and 1 has a cooking trailer in it. I have asked the tenants that share the hangar without a plane if they would allow me to share the expense of the hangar and put my plane inside on the weekends. I have not received any feedback from them. I then contacted the county and spoke with the Airport Manager who is really the Supervising Engineer, the airport is just one of his responsibilities. I explained my concern to him and he said he would NOT do inspections on the hangars to see if they are used for aviation purposes. .
Click to expand...
 
FYI Bay Area

Just a FYI about Bay Area hangars -
here at KLVK (Livermore Muni), which is far enough out to require a lengthy commute (due to traffic) to Silicon Valley or San Francisco, the T hangar waiting list has 116 names on it. For a small T looks like the current wait is about 4 years.
 
I will be waiting also in the future, so where do these aircraft go, for a hanger to be available? Decommission, recycle, export?
 
The aircraft isn;t the issue

bret said:
I will be waiting also in the future, so where do these aircraft go, for a hanger to be available? Decommission, recycle, export?
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It doesn't matter where the plane goes. In San Mateo county, for example, the hangar is tied to an individual or individuals. Once that person either cannot keep the plane in annual or they pass away, the hangar becomes available. In my case I think there were about 50 or so people in front of me, and they turned at a rate of 6-8 per year. But San Carlos has probably 100-150 hangars and T-shades, so figure your rate proportionally.

Assuming I'm still flying decades in the future, the key is to get someone else on the waiting list, and when their name comes up they become a second named person on your hangar instead of taking a new one. That way maybe my kids will have the same hangar some day.
 
Same at LVK. There is one and only one name on the hangar lease, and he must also be on the aircraft registration (or a principle owner if owned by a corporation). If the lessee sells (and doesn't buy another airplane) or dies, the hangar goes to the next person on the top of the list.

LVK requires an aircraft to be in the hangar, but they do allow under-construction aircraft, as long as reasonable progress is being made. They do inspect for compliance.
 
apkp777 said:
Sorry, I didn't read your post clearly. Now I see that you are looking for hangar space in north CA and NOT in the Bay Area.

How has your commute been back and forth? That's something I am consider if/when I take a job at SFO.
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Flying in the north state is a piece of cake. Stay away from Beale AFB and fire TFR's and your good. Strong north winds occasionally but like most places morning and evening are lowest. Mountains add to the fun but I was in a C-150 and only drove when rain/snow was a factor.
 
Building hangars on leased airport property

Dan,

Several of us at Benton Airpark (O85) in Redding have over the recent past several years erected two privately owned 14,000 square nested T-hangar complex's on leased ground, a total of 20 hangars, 10 each complex. Although City of Redding officials did not make it easy, we were able to navigate the path with persistence and were ultimately successful. Each complex is owned by it's tenant pilots.

Since the County is generally known to be considerably easier to work with than City of Redding folks, I think you may find that leasing airport property and constructing a hangar is not as challenging as you might think. There are also numerous privately owned hangars on leased ground at Red Bluff.

We can discuss our experiences and lessons learned and think about popping over the hill to Benton sometime soon to see our complex's. There is a good cafe here as well.
 
posterman said:
Dan,

Several of us at Benton Airpark (O85) in Redding have over the recent past several years erected two privately owned 14,000 square nested T-hangar complex's on leased ground, a total of 20 hangars, 10 each complex. Although City of Redding officials did not make it easy, we were able to navigate the path with persistence and were ultimately successful. Each complex is owned by it's tenant pilots.

Since the County is generally known to be considerably easier to work with than City of Redding folks, I think you may find that leasing airport property and constructing a hangar is not as challenging as you might think. There are also numerous privately owned hangars on leased ground at Red Bluff.

We can discuss our experiences and lessons learned and think about popping over the hill to Benton sometime soon to see our complex's. There is a good cafe here as well.
Click to expand...

Thanks Paul, your the guy I need to talk to. I'm sending you a PM. Benton is nice, took my written there.
 
BobTurner said:
Just a FYI about Bay Area hangars -
here at KLVK (Livermore Muni), which is far enough out to require a lengthy commute (due to traffic) to Silicon Valley or San Francisco, the T hangar waiting list has 116 names on it. For a small T looks like the current wait is about 4 years.
Click to expand...

Fwiw, half a year ago (in February) I was able to rent a hangar at KOAK without any waiting, and they had another one free at that time. They are also remarkably cheap compared to other airports in the area - a 40 feet T-hangar costs around ~260/month. There also were a few hangars for sale.
 
... half a year ago (in February) I was able to rent a hangar at KOAK without any waiting, and they had another one free at that time...
Click to expand...

That's interesting. I have been on the waiting list at Oakland for a couple of years?
 
waiting for Oakland

...There was a waiting list for bigger hangars, though (the ones at port-a-port)...
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That must be it. There was a small Port-a-Port that came up once. They were unable to open the door to show it to me, it was stuck closed and the springs were too weak to hold the door up once I forced it open. No electricity other than on a nearby pole. It still had the structural cross pieces that I would have needed to lift the tail-wheel over. Since I refused that hangar, I guess they put me on another kind of list?
 
Just to revive this topic.

When I arrived in the Bay area in 2013, I was told that hangar waiting lists were 5 years or more. I managed to get a share in an executive hangar where I was at the back behind a Centurion and Bonanza at the front.

Last year I heard that the lists were now much shorter so put my name down 4 months ago. I've now been offered a T-hangar at Hayward after turning down one of the smaller old hangars.

The small T-hangars are going for $242/month and the medium for $340.

So if you're looking for hangarage in the Bay area it may be worth getting on the list now.
 
I recently moved to the Bay Area and managed to find a share of an extra large portoport hangar through the local EAA Chapter. Visit the airports you are interested in and talk to folks, you will probably find something.
 
You might also visit LVK. The city has just transitioned out of the FBO business. The new for-profit FBO is Three Rivers, and they MAY be interested in building more hangars. Call them if you're interested.
 
Hah! You guys don't know how good you have it. My name finally came up on the rental hangar waiting list at KIZA the other day... after 15 years. Of course the opportunity to bypass that process and buy a hangar there comes up occasionally. Average price: >$400,000. I am not exaggerating.

Erich
 
Interesting topic and very timely. I went through the land lease expiration and renewal of another 10 year land lease. I learned a lot about Assured Airports, take Federal money for anything to improve an airport and that airport is on the hook to play by the FAA rules for the next 20 years or pay back the prorated portion if the airport violates the agreement. As far as I can remember the briefing, it says that the airport is there to service and encourage aviation. Hangars are for a licensed (in annual) flying aircraft. Building or storing a non-flying aircraft is not a flying activity, final assembly of the aircraft is considered acceptable, no time frame mentioned. Recently the FAA put out a Clarification to that directive expanding the interpretation. Up to that time, some airports interpreted the FAA directive literally, nothing but an airplane, no tug, no tools, no nothing, couldn't even leave your car in the hangar while flying, and enforced it. Now you can have items that are "ancillary" in addition to the aircraft. The new interpretation mentioned a refrigerator as an example. I hope I remembered all this correctly, Dan from Reno.
 
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