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iPad plus add on GPS module vs newer iPad

L

lucky

Well Known Member
Doesn't seem like there's been any discussion lately involving the iPad and actual in flight use and not much in the past either.

I am toying with the idea of getting one for my wife to use in the back of our RV8. I want it to have and ipad with GPS so she can have a 'big map' and follow along as she reads (she reads immediately after takeoff then falls asleeps usually within half an hour on our trips just like in the car - amazing when there's a World to look at...) or even fly the plane using the GPS driven '6 pack' info like the garmin x96 series of GPS systems have.

Googling hasn't produced a thing yet. Surely an RV type has tried, right????

My 'technical' questions are what add on GPS module works well with the iPad in an airplane and is there a '6 pack' avionics program I can load up to work with the GPS data? If not, is there a link to anything in development intended to do that very soon?
 
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I'll have to look at those links later...

but I suppose the underlying jist is that when the newer iPad model comes out (shortly) with the built in GPS we will start to see what I'm probably searching for...

I'm surprised because I thought people were already doing this same thing with their iphones and itouches and the ipad would obviously not be breaking new ground then.
 
Those links have lots of discussion (you will have to wade through a lot of posts however) on folks using ForeFlight and some other apps for charts and flight planning and the like, but the use as a moving map is problematic until the 3G version is out. However, once it does I'm sure it will be better than the iPhone for that application just on the basis of screen size alone. Note: I don't have an iPhone or an iPad so this is all conjecture on my part.
 
Foreflight works

I have used the Foreflight app in the plane with an iPhone. It works well, just hard to see on the small screen. I have the iPad 3g pre-ordered and it should be here by the end of the week so I will be trying it out soon with Foreflight. What I like about the foreflight app is that you download the charts on the ground before flight so you are not dependent on the cell network while in the air.

YMMV...
 
I thought the 'assisted GPS' would not be much use in flight either. I like the early iPad my wife got but I think I'll wait to get one for the aircraft.
 
I hope you're wrong about AGPS in the iPad :)

I don't see where the assisted GPS chip would require cell phone tower to operate. My comprehension is that there are advantages to being able to get data from your cell phone coverage in certain situations but not required to work in the first place.

http://gps.about.com/b/2010/01/27/apples-new-499-ipad-gps-maps-navigation-features.htm

The three Wifi+3G models (available in late April at $629, $729, and $829) will have fully functional AGPS chips built in that will use GPS satellite positioning, plus Wifi/cell tower positioning for greater accuracy in a wide range of conditions, including urban environments, which can block or bounce GPS signals.

Definition:
Assisted GPS, also known as A-GPS or AGPS, enhances the performance of standard GPS in devices connected to the cellular network. A-GPS improves the location performance of cell phones (and other connected devices) in two ways:

-By helping obtain a faster "time to first fix" (TTFF). A-GPS acquires and stores information about the location of satellites via the cellular network (see almanac) so the information does not need to be downloaded via satellite.

-By helping position a phone or mobile device when GPS signals are weak or not available. GPS satellite signals may be impeded by tall buildings, and do not penetrate building interiors well. A-GPS uses proximity to cellular towers to calculate position when GPS signals are not available.
 
From my experience, the GPS in my iPhone 3G is completely worthless for air use, based on rendering times and lack of accuracy... I do want to try out foreflight on an iPad when someone gets the setup though. It's be pretty sweet.

For moving map:

http://ifly.adventurepilot.com/

Thats what I want.

And pretty cheap too!
 
iPad in flight

I've made a few cross country trips, including to snf, with the iPad as my EFB. The wifi version doesn't have the gps, but my goal was to replace the paper in the cockpit. My glass panels with all their costly Gyppesson updates don't quite do that.

So far i've tried downloading pdf's from nacomatic and pdfplates. Both worked well, but neither offer more than approach plates. You can buy pdf's of sectionals and ifr charts from the faa site, but there's a charge per each. Both skycharts and foreflight seem to offer unlimited charts for keeping their subscription up. The subscription charges are nominal considering what can be saved versus buying paper, and the convenience and ease of downloading charts for your next trip is tremendous.

I've flown two long cross country flights with iPad+foreflight. Quick impressions:
- sunlight readability was adequate
- they've just nailed usability with the easy panning and zooming you can do with the flick of your fingers.
- foreflight's download manager for charts is very nice. It is easy to pick what you want/need for your next flight, and they give clear indications so you can tell what charts need updating. This feature alone is a big draw for going efb.
- vfr charts are good, but you have to zoom in kinda close for decent readability. It took me into the second trip to adapt to that.
- ifr charts and plates are very readable. Much better than vfr charts.
- fore flight has a great airport info page for quick access to all kinds of info about an airport. It's kind of like having your own 'airnav.com' in flight.
- fore flight has a neat feature to allow you to draw flight path on your chart. It works great, but for some lame reason they didn't think to add a feature to save routes.
- foreflight crashes from time to time, but its not much trouble to restart. Thankfully, iPad doesn't crash.
- lack of moving Map is a total non-issue for me. It's easy to pan around the charts, and the moving maps in my panel are enough. Again, the goal for me was to replace paper.
- battery life on the iPad is as good as they claim. No need to worry with the wires to keep this thing charged in flight.

Overall, I'd say I'm done with paper. I'll probably keep up my paper subscription for my home vfr/fir charts, but on trips outside of my home area, I will be fully electronic. Between iPad and Gyppesson, I'm covered.

I haven't tried sky charts yet, so that's next. Foreflight looks good so far, but skycharts has a lower price, so I'm going to evaluate that as well.

Sent from my iPad.
 
FYI: The 3G version of the iPad uses a different chip than the iPhone and supposedly it works better than the iPhone GPS chip:
http://www.appleinsider.com/article...hows_apple_using_lcd_frame_as_an_antenna.html

I'm heading out tomorrow to try it out myself.

Also: SkyChartsPro v1.8 now has support for G-Fi(tm) if you have the wifi version of the iPad or an iPod touch, but you still want a GPS location.

Device is required.
Its somewhat untested yet, so if you have one please let me know how it works out for you.
http://www.g-fi.com/

Overall - although you may say I'm biased but the iPad is a GREAT EFB - charts & plates available for your perusal, and all are stored on the device
(assuming you do download them).

Unless you have the 3G unlimited account, just remember to take home the device to WiFi when charts update - if you cache everything you're looking
at ~6GB of data...
 
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Guys: This may help if the ipad has bluetooth. I just bought a stand alone GPS unit, about the size of a camera li-on battery from Geeks.com with bluetooth, $30. No wires, self contained battery, just turn it on and lay it on the dash. Dan
 
Sadly Apple doesn't let you pair up external bluetooth GPS devices.
This is true for both the iPad and the iPhone and iPod touch.
There is still hope that OS4 will change that, but don't hold your breath.
You can jailbreak your device to get around this software limitation, but since that voids your warranty its obviously not for everyone.


guccidude1 said:
Guys: This may help if the ipad has bluetooth. I just bought a stand alone GPS unit, about the size of a camera li-on battery from Geeks.com with bluetooth, $30. No wires, self contained battery, just turn it on and lay it on the dash. Dan
Click to expand...
 
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iPad and bluetooth

guccidude1 said:
Guys: This may help if the ipad has bluetooth. I just bought a stand alone GPS unit, about the size of a camera li-on battery from Geeks.com with bluetooth, $30. No wires, self contained battery, just turn it on and lay it on the dash. Dan
Click to expand...

Have you tried pairing it yet with an iPad?
 
Ahh, politics....

OK, moderators, prove you're not politically biased & delete this purely political statement that has no relevance at all to aviation in any form, by someone without the courage in his convictions to back up his opinion with his name.

Charlie
(No, I'm not a Che fan; I just detest selective censorship.)
 
iPad Concerns

OK, the iPad looks like a great platform to use as an EFB, maybe even as a backup GPS/Moving Map for VFR/IFR en route charts. Nothing is going to be perfect, but looks like the iPad is state of the art for this purpose. Hopefully this will be the beginning of a permanent solution for paper charts in the cockpit.

Having said all that, my only concern is the 10,000' maximum operating altitude listed on the iPad's specs. I thought the hard drive was the part that was altitude limited--but the iPad uses flash memory only. What's the deal with the altitude? Anyone know? So I can't go above 10,000' with the iPad? Hmmm, not good.

P.S. I found the following comment on a blog about the iPad used as an EFB that I thought sheds a little light on my question above:

The 10,000' limitation is an artifact of the certification process; that's the maximum required operating altitude. And the limit, by the way, is air cooling capability.

The device will almost certainly function well above 10K', but it's not guaranteed to do so.

Sounded like good information to me.
 
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So just some random points from using an iPad 3G today.

The Broadcom BCM4750UBG AGPS in the iPad 3G seems way quicker to pick up a fix than the Infineon Hammerhead II in the 3GS iPhone version.
I got a fix in seconds, usually getting the initial fix can take up to a minute (using the 3GS iPhone).
I DON'T have the 3G data plan enabled, the AGPS works anyway.

If you use SkyChartsPro, the easiest way to find out if you're getting a GPS fix or a wifi/cell tower fix is to look at the reported altitude.
If altitude is non zero, its most likely GPS.

http://www.appleinsider.com/article...hows_apple_using_lcd_frame_as_an_antenna.html
 
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A couple comments about the iPad to follow glider's....

The screen image disappears if you're using polarized sunglasses.

The unit itself is pretty slippery, I have a "grip" on order, hope that fixes it.

Using SkyCharts Pro, the Sectionals are really excellent. The iPad lets me zoom out for the big picture and zoom in, perhaps somewhere else, really nicely, in a flash and that's better than paper. For me, that was the app that justified the iPad purchase.
 
someone has a iPad mount already - Scosche iKit

All the pieces for what I want are coming together.

It was just stated earlier it that the internal GPS chip works great without using anything related to wifi or ATT's network. Huge sigh of relief!

I now see a version of how this is going to be mountable in the plane and probably be able to run off ships power if desired.

Here's a youtube link to the iKit product.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SkltRqOF5k&feature=player_embedded


So the only thing missing is the killer app for my wants and that's a pseudo 6 pack type of display that runs off the GPS like the Garmin handhelds have to go along with the moving map software other's have reported that's already out there. Someone is going to make a lot of dough if they can get a slick program like that working first. And once they update the OS to have multitasking you can have a moving map along with a pseudo 6 pack and whatever else you want up. The backseater in my 8 is really going to love it. In flight movie, read ebook, moving map, listen to music, pseudo 6 pack instrument, etc. Now we just have to find a way to make it workable in sunlight. I think this will all also get solved. When you get to your destination you have a decent enough computer without taking along a laptop. Life is great!

Keep your eyes open for the 6 pack software and report back!
 
Your 6-pack application would probably need some angle sensing transducers. While the iPad probably has an accelerometer, it probably doesn't have the ability to sense angle as a gyro would.

That suggests that an external add-on module would be necessary.
 
David Paule said:
Your 6-pack application would probably need some angle sensing transducers. While the iPad probably has an accelerometer, it probably doesn't have the ability to sense angle as a gyro would.

That suggests that an external add-on module would be necessary.
Click to expand...

Ha, OK, you got me on a technicality but 6 Pack is the general 'expression' used but it's technically the virtual 5 instruments that you can do with GPS & software a al the Garmin x96 series. Just playing tilt games on it you can tell it obviously has a multi-axis accelerometer which can be integrated to give G readings as well and it also has a magnetic compass inside.

http://pinellaspilots.org/files/garmin-sixpack.pdf
 
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IPAD IPAD IPAD with approach plates debute at flightguide.com in May 2010 with GPS useage. Just saw it on flight guide.com web page. In color sectionals also as well as IFR plates.!!!!!!!!!! Ron in Oregon
 
IPAD IPAD IPAD sectional in color & IFR approach plts

Just saw the release of IPAD sectionals in color, IFR approach plates and special features like schrink and expand on sectionals. Really cool!!! Saw in on flightguide.com website release is set for this month!
 
Demo'd at Sun-N-Fun

The app was spectacular. Got to watch it demo'd several times and it was really well designed.
 
What does the FliteGuide app do that ForeFlight does not do? The ForeFlight app with data is $75 per year which is substantially less than FliteGuide's. And ForeFlight provides a lot of other info such as weather, etc. for flight planning. Foreflight is extremely easy to use and the charting is excellent.
 
flickroll said:
What does the FliteGuide app do that ForeFlight does not do? The ForeFlight app with data is $75 per year which is substantially less than FliteGuide's. And ForeFlight provides a lot of other info such as weather, etc. for flight planning. Foreflight is extremely easy to use and the charting is excellent.
Click to expand...
From a quick look, foreflight does not do realtime moving map so that's a dealbreaker for me if right.
 
You folks ought to take a look at SkyCharts Pro. It's a moving map, with Sectionals and a couple other map types that I don't use. Has the very useful touch-screen map scaling.

Your choice of portrait or landscape, of course, and the iPad lets you lock that, there's a switch on the upper right for that.

Double-tap an airport and the airport guide pops up.

It has terrain warning, too. Had to shut that off, I live in Colorado, fly only VFR, and like to play in the mountains.

If you've got 3G or wi-fi data, it gives you weather at airports that have it.

The data block at the bottom of the screen (bottom regardless of screen orientation) is a bit small, and the units aren't adjustable.

Right now the app is about $20 with NO annual fee.

I haven't had a chance to fly it yet (waiting for my new interior) but in the car it's fine.

I'm sure there's a bit more but this is as far as I've gotten.

I'm not associated with the product, merely a customer.
 
lucky said:
From a quick look, foreflight does not do realtime moving map so that's a dealbreaker for me if right.
Click to expand...

I believe it does do moving map. While I have not yet flown with it, when I drive in my car (with AT&T and Wi-Fi turned off), my position moves on the map. One drawback is it will not zoom in to an 'overzoom' condition like the Garmins do. But it will track your position on a VFR or IFR low or high enroute chart.
 
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I'm not sure Oshkosh is in my summer plans yet so the ideal comparison method for me would be if folks would take some representative video of the iPad running the different apps in flight, going through the different modes the application can execute, so we could compare them.

Or do good side by side compares with pics like this one between ForeFlight Mobile 3, Skycharts Pro, and GoodReader:

http://aviationmentor.blogspot.com/2010/04/ipad-efb-one-week-of-use.html

http://aviationmentor.blogspot.com/
 
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Would like to point out that if you already own the original fore flight iPhone app your annual renal rate is only $49.99. Not sure if that's every year or just for the first year.
 
FAQ on sky chart...

David Paule said:
You folks ought to take a look at SkyCharts Pro.
...
Right now the app is about $20 with NO annual fee.
Click to expand...

Per the FAQ on the skychart web site, you must pay $20 annually to keep downloading charts. Still quite reasonable.

For foreflight, the annual rate is $75 to skycharts $20. Frankly, compared to everything else in aviation, it is great to see both of these apps so reasonably priced. Even better that the ROI is so quickly realized. I never thought id be a paper saving tree hugger. At least I'm still filling the skies with lead and carbon monoxide.
 
glider said:
So just some random points from using an iPad 3G today.

The Broadcom BCM4750UBG AGPS in the iPad 3G seems way quicker to pick up a fix than the Infineon Hammerhead II in the 3GS iPhone version.
I got a fix in seconds, usually getting the initial fix can take up to a minute (using the 3GS iPhone).
I DON'T have the 3G data plan enabled, the AGPS works anyway.

If you use SkyChartsPro, the easiest way to find out if you're getting a GPS fix or a wifi/cell tower fix is to look at the reported altitude.
If altitude is non zero, its most likely GPS.

http://www.appleinsider.com/article...hows_apple_using_lcd_frame_as_an_antenna.html
Click to expand...


Could we get video of the gps in action? :)
 
So....

I am a little slow, but the ipad is tempting.
If I read correctly, it seems that if one buys the 3g version it comes with a gps chip. The 3g version is not activated when you buy it and you dont need to activate(pay monthly fees)right? The gps chip will work and if you ever feel the need for 3g, just email to activate with carrier. The gps working seems like its well worth the minimal upgrade to the ipad no? Am I missing a part of the puzzle or would it be silly not to buy the 3g version if gps will work in plane and car?
 
RickWoodall said:
I am a little slow, but the ipad is tempting.
If I read correctly, it seems that if one buys the 3g version it comes with a gps chip.
Click to expand...

Correct.

RickWoodall said:
The 3g version is not activated when you buy it and you dont need to activate(pay monthly fees)right?
Click to expand...

Right.

RickWoodall said:
The gps chip will work and if you ever feel the need for 3g, just email to activate with carrier.
Click to expand...

Right, except no e-mailing is necessary. You can sign up on the device and there is no commitment beyond one month. You can sign up for either data plan, as needed.

RickWoodall said:
The gps working seems like its well worth the minimal upgrade to the ipad no? Am I missing a part of the puzzle or would it be silly not to buy the 3g version if gps will work in plane and car?
Click to expand...
That would be an individual decision. It is well worth it to me, although in my opinion there are significant issues with using the iPad in a canopied RV.

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?p=431278#post431278

I love it in the car because it is usually shaded in the car.
 
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FYI: If you are worried about the AGPS in the iPad, SkyChartsPro as of v1.8 has support for G-Fi:
http://www.g-fi.com/

And yes, that's a 'normal' GPS chip in it, no AGPS.
Reports have it though that the iPad is a lot better than the iPhone, but I have yet to try it myself.
 
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I did a cross country trip yesterday and could not get GPS positioning. I was at 7000 feet with no Cellular service. On another trip I was at 3500 feet with some cell service and the GPS had me positioned on ForeFlights sectional just fine. On my Ipad we need some cellular coverage to get GPS. Bummer!
 
jeff beckley said:
I did a cross country trip yesterday and could not get GPS positioning. I was at 7000 feet with no Cellular service. On another trip I was at 3500 feet with some cell service and the GPS had me positioned on ForeFlights sectional just fine. On my Ipad we need some cellular coverage to get GPS. Bummer!
Click to expand...
Jeff,

My experience has been that a GPS application that needs to download data will not start up without coverage. Applications, like a GPS car navigator I have, that keep the data on the iPad, work fine.

Certainly a factor to watch for when evaluating applications.
 
The Ipad is certainly dazzling! Watching some of the videos on line showing its oepration had me panting.

Also, note that Google is rumored to be working with Verizon (much better coverage/network than ATT&T IMHO) on it's version of an Ipad. It'll hvae usb ports etc and probably based on the Android OS.

This year should be incredible for new devices!

Bob
 
Larry. I had the sectional downloaded already. As well as the low enroute charts. Both of them geosync just fine when I have some kind of cellular signal. Your auto navigation would work just fine because you are on the ground with cell service..
 
jeff beckley said:
Larry. I had the sectional downloaded already. As well as the low enroute charts. Both of them geosync just fine when I have some kind of cellular signal. Your auto navigation would work just fine because you are on the ground with cell service..
Click to expand...

Jeff, I wish I knew more about how things exactly work. In particular I am confused by ambiguous data about what happens when airplane mode is activated. Just now I tried to get a fix here in the living room with airplane mode on and could not but I could get a fix with three different apps with both cellular data and wifi data off. These apps work with pre-downloaded data.

I did use the car navigation app in the airplane the other day and it worked fine, but that was during some intermittent data coverage. In the car it works with wifi and cellular data off.

I think some of the confusion comes from if the iPad had a fix initially before losing data coverage.
 
Say Jeff....

jeff beckley said:
Larry. I had the sectional downloaded already. As well as the low enroute charts. Both of them geosync just fine when I have some kind of cellular signal. Your auto navigation would work just fine because you are on the ground with cell service..
Click to expand...

...if I have the low altitude IFR charts loaded, can I not simply 'pull' the chart along as I fly? After all, I have two moving maps in the 496 and 430W.

Best,
 
Larry. I did not turn on airplane mode. I read on this board somewhere that another dude found that they had to have the app loaded before losing cell service in order to get GPS data. That is strange. Unfortunately apple has blocked any kind of external bluetooth GPS receiver with the IPAD. Looks like I will be looking into Jailbreaking my Ipad as well.
 
I have been following all of these EFB discussions with much interest because my 3G iPad is in transit and I should have it soon. After doing a reasonable amount of research, my plan is to jailbreak the thing right out of the box. Now, I'm not suggesting that anyone should do this, just telling you that it's an option--and a pretty good one in my opinion!

I have been visiting all of the 'geek' sites and have determined (not proven, just satisfied myself) that jailbreaking is easy, safe, and reversible. Here's the gist of it: you need to do your own research to satisfy yourself, but if you just Google 'How to jailbreak an iPad', you're going to get a lot of information. The jailbreak process takes just a few minutes, is totally free, and you can accomplish it from the comfort of your own desktop. I plan on using the 'Spirit' jailbreak (SpiritJB.com) and then download either of two Bluetooth stacks from Cydia, RoQyBT GPS or BTstack GPS, either one just a few bucks.

First, you want to backup your current iPad state by synching with iTunes; that way, you can revert back to this previous state if you run into problems with jailbreaking or if you have a warranty issue.

Assuming you have already backed up your iPad, jailbreaking is just a matter of downloading the 'Spirit' software to your desktop, connecting the iPad to the desktop via the USB cable that comes with it, and running Spirit. When you're done, you will have a new app on your iPad called Cydia, which is the jailbroken app center, if you will. There you will find all kinds of unauthorized apps including the Bluetooth stacks that you will need so that your iPad will recognize your Bluetoothed GPS, which a lot of us already have in the cockpit. None of this is guaranteed to work, but expect, within reason, that it probably will. At least that's what I'm hearing. You can always restore your previous state by synching with iTunes again.

One of the cautions for jailbreaking is that you should not allow any firmware updates to migrate to you iPad until the jailbreak app is ready for the new version of firmware. This just means you don't accept firmware upgrades until the jailbreak crowd announces that they can 'break' the new version.

Obviously, you are also increasing the risk that some virus or malware may get on your iPad, but then you can always restore to previous state. It's a risk/reward thing, in my view.

I say all this in the hope that this might save someone a little time if you are frustrated by the lack of Bluetooth compatibility and are probably going to end up jailbreaking your iPad anyway.
 
Jail breaking IPAD

Thanks Tim and Pat for all of the info on jailbreaking. Probably a dumb question, but if you jailbreak the ipad, can you still use the Apple approved apps that you currently have installed. I am thinking you won't be able to download new apps from the traditional app store once jailbroken, but hopefully I am wrong :)
Thanks again,
Mark Hanley
 
flydoc said:
Thanks Tim and Pat for all of the info on jailbreaking. Probably a dumb question, but if you jailbreak the ipad, can you still use the Apple approved apps that you currently have installed. I am thinking you won't be able to download new apps from the traditional app store once jailbroken, but hopefully I am wrong :)
Thanks again,
Mark Hanley
Click to expand...

Mark,

All of your Apple apps will be just fine, and I am told you should not notice any difference in operation. You will get the Cydia icon after jailbreaking which will take you to all of the 'black market' apps. You should be able to download iTunes apps normally. I will follow up with a report after I receive my iPad.
 
jeff beckley said:
I did a cross country trip yesterday and could not get GPS positioning. I was at 7000 feet with no Cellular service. On another trip I was at 3500 feet with some cell service and the GPS had me positioned on ForeFlights sectional just fine. On my Ipad we need some cellular coverage to get GPS. Bummer!
Click to expand...

I have an iPad 3g with airplane mode off and have not activated the 3g service yet. I flew today and did not turn the unit on until reaching 3500'. The gps moving map worked fine with Foreflght and Skycharts Pro.
 
don't think so

jeff beckley said:
I did a cross country trip yesterday and could not get GPS positioning. I was at 7000 feet with no Cellular service. On another trip I was at 3500 feet with some cell service and the GPS had me positioned on ForeFlights sectional just fine. On my Ipad we need some cellular coverage to get GPS. Bummer!
Click to expand...

Flying high with iphone, a friend tested a gps app on the phone and it initially would not work. We rebooted phone and the gps started working great. It looks like the assisted GPS feature can get a bit confused when it loses the cell signal. I don't really know if reboot or some other incantation is required, but we did witness good gps tracking with no cell signal.
 
pierre smith said:
...if I have the low altitude IFR charts loaded, can I not simply 'pull' the chart along as I fly? After all, I have two moving maps in the 496 and 430W.

Best,
Click to expand...

Pierre,

I didn't see an answer to your question, and I am assuming that if the map is not georeferenced (has no GPS reference to center the chart on your position), that you would just drag the chart along with your finger as has been demonstrated in a couple of the videos of ForeFlight and SkyCharts Pro that are out there.
 
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