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Fuel selector

Chedal

I'm New Here
I would like to install the fuel selector FS20 type7 instead of the type2 suplied by Van's. The type7 is much more ergonomic than the 2: left tank on the left, right tank on the right et OFF on the rear.
Before to order the fuse kit I would like to know if somebody has already made this installation.
Than'ks.
 
Looking at the -7 part, I see no reason why you couldn't make it work, but there are two problems. First, the fuel lines specified in the plans will not work with it as the -7 part has a different orientation of in and out ports. Second, the orientation of the mounting flange is 180° around from the -2 part. You will have to rework the mounting plate as well as make up fuel lines on your own.
 
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I looked at it and preferred it for the same reason but if I recall correctly, plumbing is harder and not nearly as straight forward as this type. I figured I will get use to it. Time will tell.
 
The type 3 has also different orientation of the ports and I guess that it'll be more difficult with the right entry on the front.

Luc Chedeau
RV 14 building emp
France
 
Luc---using a 7T valve in the RV14 'can' be done, but it will take some creative tube bending to connect the wing tubes to the valve. The 7T with the 90* elbows facing aft are at 45* to the tunnel sides. That means that the 'original' designed wing tubes would have to be changed to matched the new valve configuration. Its pretty tight in that area.
The bend after the flare would have to be very close to the aft side of the nut to clear the sides. An "S" bend back to center the aft to mimic the original design.

Grab some extra 3/8 tubing to make some patterns. Eat lunch first, you may be there awhile! Best plan is to stay with the 2T valve that Vans supplies.

Tom
 
This post is a follow up to everyone who emailed and asked us about the Type 7 valve in the RV14. It is a lot more complicated than the standard valve, due to the bend complexity as well as the tight clearances needed to make it work. However, we love challenges and coming up with solutions for them. On that note, we have been quietly working on this with the help of an RV14 Beta tester.

It may be a few months before we are ready for the release of this kit, as we are working to ensure we have not only CNC bent rigid tubes, but also a drill template to locate the valve correctly in correlation to the original mounting brackets.

There are a few small changes yet to be made, but we are getting very close.

Here is a video showing the bending of the new tube and the general geometry of the final tube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJ34Km2Qly4&feature=youtu.be

Pricing on the new kit has not yet been officially set, but we anticipate a release price of $299.95. Like the current cabin fuel kit we offer, this one will include 3 Rigid tubes and one flex hose. In addition, it will include a valve mounting drill template to correctly locate the new valve.

Though we anticipate that a majority of builders will want to stay with the stock valve configuration, we also anticipate that there will be many builders that would like a solution that allows them to utilize this valve configuration.

Happy building,
Steve
 
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Duplex Valve for a 14 FI engine

What are my options for a duplex valve for my 14 FI Thunderbolt Lycoming 390? Engine arrives in Feb-march. Thanks
 
What are my options for a duplex valve for my 14 FI Thunderbolt Lycoming 390? Engine arrives in Feb-march. Thanks

Give us a call tomorrow and we will be happy to discuss the duplex installation for the -14 with you.

In short, we have an option, but it is not a full drop in installation like our standard cabin fuel package for the -14. The reason for that is that it typically would be installed in conjunction with the EFII or SDS systems and we have seen different setups on those.

We focused more on the firewall forward hose kits for the -14 because of the variety of different configurations that we have seen people doing on the aircraft. We have seen lots of Thunderbolt engines, FM150 fuel servos, Single and Dual PMAG installations, Backup Alternators, and upright oil filter adapters. All of these configurations affect the fuel and oil hose lengths/configurations.

I look forward to talking with you about the options,
Steve
 
I'd think long and hard before making changes to Van's design in the fuel selector area, primarily because of the tight space - as Tom and Steve have mentioned. Once the fuel lines and fuel selector/filter/pump are installed, routing wires/tubing through the area is very "interesting". Getting the harness from this area to the control sticks is next to impossible (If I were building again I'd install these harnesses before installing any of the fuel system). I ended up cutting the harness and installing an extension so I could just route the bare wires - even this process required some creative "fishing" of wires through the structure. Adding more fuel lines, especially with bends, in this area would make the process even more challenging.

The current design is proven to work well with "stock" engine - my question would be what is the advantage of a duplex system? And I'm one of those who's made some changes - Beringer brakes/wheels, remote oil filter, single PMAG, etc. I'm using TS Flightlines/ Aircraft Speciality hoses/lines everywhere I can: we've done quite a bit of "back and forth" (Tom Swearingen and I are best buds these days).
 
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I'd think long and hard before making changes to Van's design in the fuel selector area, primarily because of the tight space - as Tom and Steve have mentioned. Once the fuel lines and fuel selector/filter/pump are installed, routing wires/tubing through the area is very "interesting". Getting the harness from this area to the control sticks is next to impossible (If I were building again I'd install these harnesses before installing any of the fuel system). I ended up cutting the harness and installing an extension so I could just route the bare wires - even this process required some creative "fishing" of wires through the structure. Adding more fuel lines, especially with bends, in this area would make the process even more challenging.

The current design is proven to work well with "stock" engine - my question would be what is the advantage of a duplex system? And I'm one of those who's made some changes - Beringer brakes/wheels, remote oil filter, single PMAG, etc. I'm using TS Flightlines/ Aircraft Speciality hoses/lines everywhere I can: we've done quite a bit of "back and forth" (Tom Swearingen and I are best buds these days).

This is the reason that we don't have the duplex tubes available for automatic ordering on the website. We like to have a conversation with customers about everything that the duplex tubes entail. It does add a lot of tubing/complexity.

The standard RV14 pre bent fuel lines have been a very popular item and make plumbing the fuel system easy.

There are situations where a duplex valve is necessary. For the majority of RV14 aircraft, the duplex valve is not the best solution.

The development we have been doing on the Andair Type 7 valve has been interesting. It is also a non duplex valve, but has a different Left/Right/Off configuration that is more appealing to some. But, fitting the tubes in the tunnel would be challenging endeavor without a special bender/die setup.

Our goal with these has always been to make plumbing the fuel system as easy as possible, for those who want the stock setup as well as those that want to make changes to it.

Steve
 
I would like to install the fuel selector FS20 type7 instead of the type2 suplied by Van's. The type7 is much more ergonomic than the 2: left tank on the left, right tank on the right et OFF on the rear.
Before to order the fuse kit I would like to know if somebody has already made this installation.
Than'ks.

Grind off the pointer on the selector valve, route the incoming lines to the "opposite" side, and use the handle on the selector as the pointer. Now, when the handle points left, you're on the left tank and vice versa.
 
Duplex Valve for a 14 FI engine

Turner, thanks for the input. I am pretty sure I am going to need return lines for my EFI/EFII system and that will require a duplex fuel valve. I know it's going to tight but I wanted fuel injection and since this will probably be my last build (Unless an RV-18 comes along) wanted to have it. I know a duplex valve makes it even tighter but I am pretty sure I need it. Any comments would be more than welcome especially from a 14 builder who has FI.
 
Turner, thanks for the input. I am pretty sure I am going to need return lines for my EFI/EFII system and that will require a duplex fuel valve. I know it's going to tight but I wanted fuel injection and since this will probably be my last build (Unless an RV-18 comes along) wanted to have it. I know a duplex valve makes it even tighter but I am pretty sure I need it. Any comments would be more than welcome especially from a 14 builder who has FI.

Help me understand how the "EFI"EFII" system is different/better than the Airflow or other fuel injection systems that don't require duplex valve? I'm aware that some systems have fuel return - like the Bonanza that I flew - so I understand how duplex valve works. In the Bonanza the main advantage of the return system was the ability to circulate fuel for hot starts.
 
Fuel Injection is standard on the 14. I find Van?s fuel selection valve simple and slick, hyper easy to operate. A snap to install. Locking pin. Looks good.
What?s not to love.
I give it a 9.5 (10) on the perfect scale.

R
 
Help me understand how the "EFI"EFII" system is different/better than the Airflow or other fuel injection systems that don't require duplex valve? I'm aware that some systems have fuel return - like the Bonanza that I flew - so I understand how duplex valve works. In the Bonanza the main advantage of the return system was the ability to circulate fuel for hot starts.

I guess this is another one of those never ending debates...like slider VS. tip-up. I think it?s more of a ?pick your poison? decision. I?m doing the EFI/EFII system in my -7 build. I think it?s the simplest and most modern setup with the most adjustability of any other type of fuel injection and ignition system that?s available to us today....but I?m sure others will disagree. There?s lots of threads/debates here on VAF regarding this.

Mark
 
Is this not the standard?

Grind off the pointer on the selector valve, route the incoming lines to the "opposite" side, and use the handle on the selector as the pointer. Now, when the handle points left, you're on the left tank and vice versa.

I thought the FAA has mandated that the biggest end of the fuel selector has to be the indicator after many accidents due to fuel selector on wrong tank. Are you implying the homebuilt community has not heeded this lesson?

I am about to start my fuel system and and really interested in this subject.
 
Help me understand how the "EFI"EFII" system is different/better than the Airflow or other fuel injection systems that don't require duplex valve? I'm aware that some systems have fuel return - like the Bonanza that I flew - so I understand how duplex valve works. In the Bonanza the main advantage of the return system was the ability to circulate fuel for hot starts.

(Second edit: The Continental style system has the advantage of circulating fuel for hot starts, but that's not the *reason*. It's required for the system to work.)

The 'Bendix style' (mechanical) injection uses the engine driven diaphragm pump. That style pump uses a spring to push the fuel, so the pump itself sets pressure (via the strength of the spring). (edit: The engine's drive just 'cocks' the pump by compressing the spring, then the spring does the work of pushing the fuel.)

The auto-style electronic injection systems use electric, *positive displacement* (think about how the oil pump works) pumps, that pump a constant volume of fuel which is *much* higher than the engine consumes in normal operation. Because the pump is positive displacement, pressure must be set by an external regulator, which 'bleeds off' the extra fuel to maintain setpoint pressure. The extra fuel has to go somewhere, and because there's a risk of heated fuel causing vapor lock if plumbed back to the pump input, almost everyone runs this extra fuel back to the tank.

That help?

Charlie
 
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The 'Bendix style' (mechanical) injection uses the engine driven diaphragm pump. That style pump uses a spring to push the fuel, so the pump itself sets pressure (via the strength of the spring). (edit: The engine's drive just 'cocks' the pump by compressing the spring, then the spring does the work of pushing the fuel.)

The auto-style electronic injection systems use electric, *positive displacement* (think about how the oil pump works) pumps, that pump a constant volume of fuel which is *much* higher than the engine consumes in normal operation. Because the pump is positive displacement, pressure must be set by an external regulator, which 'bleeds off' the extra fuel to maintain setpoint pressure. The extra fuel has to go somewhere, and because there's a risk of heated fuel causing vapor lock if plumbed back to the pump input, almost everyone runs this extra fuel back to the tank.

That help?

Charlie

Yes it helps, but I'm not sure I understand the advantage over standard systems like Airflow etc. Fuel economy? Reliability? Serviceability? Not trying to be argumentative here, just want to learn from others.
 
Yes it helps, but I'm not sure I understand the advantage over standard systems like Airflow etc. Fuel economy? Reliability? Serviceability? Not trying to be argumentative here, just want to learn from others.

For me, the answer to everything that you mentioned above...is yes! I think the ?advantages? are different for different reasons for each individual builder.

For me, it was the move away from old to new technology, almost no moving parts, adjustability/tune-ability, ease of installation, and almost no chance of vapor lock, which translates into easy engine starts.

One again, I think that every builders comfort level is different and what they feel the most comfortable with. I don?t think there?s anything at all wrong with the Airflow Performance or Bendix style fuel systems...or even carburetors as far as that?s concerned. The mechanical systems have been around for a long time and have obviously proven themselves over the years, so like I said, I think for the most part, it just boils down to personal comfort level and preference.

Mark
 
If you've had to live with Bendix style systems with mags, through all kinds of operating conditions, compare those experiences with your experiences with your modern car, in the same circumstances.

Once the new style system is properly set up, it will give the same experience as your car; it'll just start and run, without all the varying voodoo many of us have had to employ to get the old style stuff running.

That alone would be enough to motivate me. But you then get to improve cyl balance with button pushes, instead of laborious injector swapping, and the ignition advance features give better fuel economy, if you're willing to run lean of peak.

Consider that even little industrial engines, watercraft, cycles, etc etc have almost all migrated to electronic engine controls. I certainly wish my 10 year old UTV had it; it would make cold starting a thing of the past.

Charlie
 
I?ve NEVER heard of anyone that?s gone back to any of the old-school mechanical systems (fuel, ignition, or both) once they?ve experienced a modern EFI/EFII system. I think that alone speaks volumes.

Mark
 
EFII systems

Since I have bought the EFI/EFII system I probably should know more about this but I made the decision I wanted the latest technology (There will be more in my lifetime I'm sure) and since the automobile guys have been doing this for 20 years + wanted a system where I did not have to be adjusting air mixture controls but used FADEC mapping. (When was the last time you had to adjust your mixture control on your car?) I fly giant scale turbine jets using FADEC and love this ease of use. (Yes I know this a different system since we don't fly over 1,000 ft. AGL but have flown these in the Denver area with same results at sea level) Since the 390 is fuel injected already it was not this option I wanted but also the use of a lack of mixture control. Many years ago I talked with a builder using the system on his 14 and he was 100 times more knowledgably than me and I signed up. Today he has over 100 hours (Since I last communicated with him) and loves it. It might be a tomato tomoto argument but we all agree that VAF is the best community of aviation enthusiast in the world. I like using the latest technology and eventually it improves the system (I have 2 EV vehicles that I drive) even though it's more emotional than a scientific decision. The other opinion I received that I have not taken to the bank is this system will be compatible with the 100LL fuels of the future and I liked this play. Since I live in the Midwest I'm leery of Auto gas with ethanol that we should not have ever started using in our fuel systems but we might be stuck with this error and EFII gives me options in the future.

Looking for more comments from builders (Especially RV-14) that have made the leap of faith to go with 2 controls not 3 for there airframes.
 
Morning all. Sorry but I've got chair lag--not jet lag---from sitting with Suzanne all day yesterday getting a transfusion. Think I;ll just keep a big pillow in the car---just in case!

EFI injections may or may not have advantages over a mechanical injection. Certainly ECU controlled mixtures are or may be an advantage to some. I think that once you get past the install with its extra plumbing and wiring, then quite possibly there is an advantage. Ross at SDS has done an awesome job of developing this type of setup for many years.

For the builder or owner of the various planes, these systems are NOT drop in as the aircraft werent originally designed with them in mind. The RV14 may or may not be an exception with the return port in the tanks. The planes were designed with the overall availability of engines and parts to make an 'economical' aircraft. But for those that want to use these systems, Steve and I have done packages from RV4 through RV14, with the RV7 and RV10 being the most common. Double the plumbing, usually in tight places, and this extra plumbing has to interact with other systems originally designed for the plane. Wiring and flight controls sometimes come into play.

AS Flightlines, the Joint Venture of Aircraft Specialty and TS Flightlines has spend a considerable amount of time, effort, and some expense to prototype these packages and have beta testers check them; sometimes multiple testers, because not everyone route things the same way. We did it because you asked for it, and frankly it was a challenge!

At any rate, the common part that everyone will need is a duplex valve, configured correctly for the particular install they are doing. In most cases SPACE AND CLEARANCES are at a premium so prior planning is important. We recommend the Andair FS2020 duplex valve. Not to say that there arent others on the market, but we dont have experience with them. Will be doing a RV10 with a Newton valve shortly. This valve sometimes correctly configured has to come from Andair so lead times come into play.

Getting off course here, but the point is, YES they can be done, Yes they have some advantages, YES the installs are alot of work. Our suggestion is to thoroughly investigate if a EFI system is for you, and if so, WE'RE game and can help.

Tom and Steve
 
AS Flightlines

Tom and Steve?s plumbing kits make this an easy installation....at least in the -7. Thanks guys!!

Mark
 
We have been working on this project based on builder requests. This is a picture of the Andair Type 7 valve with the off configuration in the aft position. We are working on the release of a drop in package for those who want to go with the alternate valve. This package will include all tubes to completely plumb the cabin fuel system for the RV14 and will also include a drill template to mount the alternate valve correctly. This will be necessary to ensure that the tubes are a perfect fit. This package will be scheduled for release in the next several months.

Beringer%20For%20VAF%20Smaller%20Pic.jpg



We are also back at work on the Duplex valve configuration for the RV14 due to growing interest in that configuration from customers. This is designed to support SDS and EFII systems. We have plumbed a few rv14 aircraft in this configuration so far, and have realized that the location of the valve is absolutely critical for the 4 rigid tubes to fit correctly. In addition, the duplex valve requires a new mounting bracket which we are now CNC machining and bending, new clips to hold the tubes as well as some cover plate and other tunnel modifications. Due to the complexity of doing this correctly, we are working with 2 beta testers to ensure that we can provide a complete drop in package for the duplex valve. This package will provide ALL the tubes and modified components to make installation easy. This is a work in progress, and will take several months to complete and finalize.

New%20Valve%20Bracket.jpg


We look forward to continuing progress on these projects and continuing to innovate new products based on feedback from the Vans community.

Thanks again for letting us be a part of your projects.

Steve and Tom
 
We are also back at work on the Duplex valve configuration for the RV14 due to growing interest in that configuration from customers. This is designed to support SDS and EFII systems. We have plumbed a few rv14 aircraft in this configuration so far, and have realized that the location of the valve is absolutely critical for the 4 rigid tubes to fit correctly. In addition, the duplex valve requires a new mounting bracket which we are now CNC machining and bending, new clips to hold the tubes as well as some cover plate and other tunnel modifications. Due to the complexity of doing this correctly, we are working with 2 beta testers to ensure that we can provide a complete drop in package for the duplex valve. This package will provide ALL the tubes and modified components to make installation easy. This is a work in progress, and will take several months to complete and finalize.

Steve, I'm planning an SDS EFI installation so I'm very interested in this package. Will it include plumbing for the dual fuel pump and filter assembly inside the tunnel? Or just the fuel lines between the duplex valve and the tanks?

Thanks,
 
Mark,

Right now we are working on the valve brackets, cover plate mods, and fuel tubes from the valve out to the fuselage exit, and then out to the wing tanks. This setup is actually a lot more involved with a lot more variables than it appears. We are working to make it as simple as possible and "drop in."

We do plan on working on the plumbing forward of the valve, but haven't finalized any ideas there yet.

We will eventually have a tunnel mockup which will help speed along the process. However, we don't have any definitive near term time line on any of that.

Since the valve plumbing will be the same for all RV14 aircraft requiring a duplex system, that is what we are focusing on first. Once that is complete, we will start seeing if we can standardize items forward of the valve for some popular setups.

Steve
 
Follow up---

Just a followup to Steve's post. WE started this project several years ago for a well known 14 builder. We didnt think is would become as popular as it has.
But, MANY 14 builders are getting duplex electronic injection systems, and have requested assistance. (Even some 14 builders wanted to use a different selector valve, so we played with that too.)

This has been an ongoing project, and with the help of several beta testers, it's turned the corner and headed for home. One of the things that we have dealt with is the location of the fuel pump. Sine the 14 and its pump mounts were designed for the Andair pump, some changes were necessary to use the SDS or EFii pumps. They are longer, the mounting holes are different, and it general it presented a challenge. And the fact that filters need to be incorporated in the system makes this a real exercise.

The challenge is that this is experimental. WE are all builders with our own ideas, and not everyone sees things the same way. But to make a drop in package, we have to settle on a firm location, design the plumbing for it-per the manufacturers recommendations--and document the install. if you were doing 1 package, its not a big deal, but when you are designing a package potentially used by alot of builders, you have to think about alot of different things.

Part of that problem is NOT having a plane to play with to test fit things, or in my case, a place to put the plane. In the past, and still done today in some cases, it was get in the car---or in Steve's case his 10, and go to the builders location and actually mockup the components. That worked well for a short time, but became increasing dependent on time and schedules, and in my case, the documented health challenges that has me staying close to home.

So we enlisted the aid of you guys, the actual builders, that we use as beta testers, to help make these packages a reality. It takes a special person to do this! Alot of us just want to get it done so we can move to the next item. These dedicated testers do alot of the mockups and see that things work as designed. THAT takes alot of time, effort and thought. In the case of this duplex package, several little things came up that needed attention to make the whole package better. The big thing here is TIME----time to design, time to make a prototype, but the real issue is TIME for the beta testers and their schedules ( and life challenges) to check things. WE get things back from one tester, then in some cases make minor adjustments and send it to a different tester to get their opinion. All of this takes time, to make sure that when the end users get the finished package, it fits.

So---we hope to have all of this finalized soon--but I suspect it will be several months before its released.

Tom
 
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