Van's Air Force
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Superior Buy Back
- Thread starter YellaDawg
- Start date
Chris Engler
Active Member
I spoke to both Vans and Barrett yesterday and they both said the lead time for new Lycomings was 6 months(+).
In my inbox this a.m.....
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
SUPERIOR AIR PARTS ANNOUNCES IT IMPLEMENTING AN IMMEDIATE AND MANDATORY
BUY-BACK PROGRAM FOR ALL XP-382 AND XP-400 EXPERIMENTAL ENGINES
The company is contacting each XP-382 and XP-400 series experimental engine owner to arrange to immediately buy-back their engine.
Coppell, TX (March 01, 2019) — Scott Hayes, VP, Sales and Marketing for Superior Air Parts, Inc., announced today that the company is implementing an immediate and mandatory buy-back of all the Superior Air Parts XP-382 and XP-400 series experimental aircraft engines in the field.
“This is not something we want to do, but the safety of our customers is our utmost priority. Because of that we are contacting every Superior XP-382 and XP-400 engine owner to arrange to buy-back their engine,” Hayes stated. “We know it is a considerable inconvenience but again, safety of flight is paramount in everything we do.”
“We have already contacted a number of our owners and while it’s no surprise that they are not happy with the situation, they understand that we are doing this because it is the right thing to do,” he said. “In fact, the typical response has been them thanking us for keeping their safety as our top priority."
Bill Ross, A&P I/A and Superior Air Parts’ VP Product Support explained that the company’s decision to take all of the XP-382 and XP-400 engines out of the market comes after a lengthy evaluation and testing process.
“When we first learned of the breadth of the detonation problem, we contacted XP-400 engine owners and paid to have them ship their engines to our facility for evaluation,” Ross said. “We disassembled, inspected and tested the key components in each engine.”
“The good news was the majority of the engines were absolutely clean, with no signs of stress wear or damage,” he said. “The bad news is of the few we found with issues, neither our engineering team or our metallurgy specialists were able to define a consistent root cause of the issues.”
Ross added that even after the company took all the available steps to adjust the engine’s ignition timing to reduce internal stress, the results were still unsatisfactory. So to eliminate the possibility of any future occurrences, the company is grounding all XP-382 and XP-400 engines immediately.
While the detonation problems are currently confined to the XP-400 engines, Hayes said that because the XP-382 shares so many of the same internal components, that the decision was made to include that model in the program as well.
“I want to be 100-percent clear that the grounding and buy-back mandate does not include any XP-320 or XP-360 engines,” he said.
“Throughout Superior Air Parts’ 50-plus year history, we have stood behind the quality and safety of our products,” Hayes said. “While the financial burden of this buy-back is significant, it is not as stressful as thinking that we have failed, in any way, to do what we could to protect the safety of our customers and their passengers.”
For more information, please contact:
Scott Hayes, VP Sales and Marketing: 972.215.6992
Bill Ross, VP Product Support: 214.395.9183
About Superior Air Parts, Inc.
Superior Air Parts, Inc., is a wholly owned subsidiary of the Superior Aviation Group. Founded in 1967, Superior Air Parts is the leading manufacturer of FAA approved aftermarket replacement parts for Lycoming and Continental aircraft engines. In addition, the company manufactures the FAA certified Vantage Engine and the XP-Series Engine family for experimental and sport aircraft builders. For more information, visit: www.superiorairparts.com
SUPERIOR AIR PARTS ANNOUNCES IT IMPLEMENTING AN IMMEDIATE AND MANDATORY
BUY-BACK PROGRAM FOR ALL XP-382 AND XP-400 EXPERIMENTAL ENGINES
The company is contacting each XP-382 and XP-400 series experimental engine owner to arrange to immediately buy-back their engine.
Coppell, TX (March 01, 2019) — Scott Hayes, VP, Sales and Marketing for Superior Air Parts, Inc., announced today that the company is implementing an immediate and mandatory buy-back of all the Superior Air Parts XP-382 and XP-400 series experimental aircraft engines in the field.
“This is not something we want to do, but the safety of our customers is our utmost priority. Because of that we are contacting every Superior XP-382 and XP-400 engine owner to arrange to buy-back their engine,” Hayes stated. “We know it is a considerable inconvenience but again, safety of flight is paramount in everything we do.”
“We have already contacted a number of our owners and while it’s no surprise that they are not happy with the situation, they understand that we are doing this because it is the right thing to do,” he said. “In fact, the typical response has been them thanking us for keeping their safety as our top priority."
Bill Ross, A&P I/A and Superior Air Parts’ VP Product Support explained that the company’s decision to take all of the XP-382 and XP-400 engines out of the market comes after a lengthy evaluation and testing process.
“When we first learned of the breadth of the detonation problem, we contacted XP-400 engine owners and paid to have them ship their engines to our facility for evaluation,” Ross said. “We disassembled, inspected and tested the key components in each engine.”
“The good news was the majority of the engines were absolutely clean, with no signs of stress wear or damage,” he said. “The bad news is of the few we found with issues, neither our engineering team or our metallurgy specialists were able to define a consistent root cause of the issues.”
Ross added that even after the company took all the available steps to adjust the engine’s ignition timing to reduce internal stress, the results were still unsatisfactory. So to eliminate the possibility of any future occurrences, the company is grounding all XP-382 and XP-400 engines immediately.
While the detonation problems are currently confined to the XP-400 engines, Hayes said that because the XP-382 shares so many of the same internal components, that the decision was made to include that model in the program as well.
“I want to be 100-percent clear that the grounding and buy-back mandate does not include any XP-320 or XP-360 engines,” he said.
“Throughout Superior Air Parts’ 50-plus year history, we have stood behind the quality and safety of our products,” Hayes said. “While the financial burden of this buy-back is significant, it is not as stressful as thinking that we have failed, in any way, to do what we could to protect the safety of our customers and their passengers.”
For more information, please contact:
Scott Hayes, VP Sales and Marketing: 972.215.6992
Bill Ross, VP Product Support: 214.395.9183
About Superior Air Parts, Inc.
Superior Air Parts, Inc., is a wholly owned subsidiary of the Superior Aviation Group. Founded in 1967, Superior Air Parts is the leading manufacturer of FAA approved aftermarket replacement parts for Lycoming and Continental aircraft engines. In addition, the company manufactures the FAA certified Vantage Engine and the XP-Series Engine family for experimental and sport aircraft builders. For more information, visit: www.superiorairparts.com
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James Ball
Member
Titan engine by Continental Motors lead time
The Titan 195 HP 370 engine lead time is 90 days right now. We'll try to maintain or better that this year.
It's a great option ( Of course, I am unabashedly biased ).
The Titan 195 HP 370 engine lead time is 90 days right now. We'll try to maintain or better that this year.
It's a great option ( Of course, I am unabashedly biased ).
Possibly not your best moment.
I'm not far enough in the build process to purchase an engine.
I've been leaning towards an XP382 when the time comes.
Knowing Superior is willing to take it in the shorts and do the right thing adds to my confidence level in purchasing an engine from them when the time comes.
Especially since there have been problems only with the 400, but their pulling the 382s also, just to be safe.
Kudos to Superior.
I've been leaning towards an XP382 when the time comes.
Knowing Superior is willing to take it in the shorts and do the right thing adds to my confidence level in purchasing an engine from them when the time comes.
Especially since there have been problems only with the 400, but their pulling the 382s also, just to be safe.
Kudos to Superior.
Kudos to Superior if they try to make those affected whole (in tems of the consequential expense they have to bear, the mighty inconvenience and the loss of time)...
Otherwise, it?s not like they could?ve let the engines kept on flying knowing that the crankshaft may fail at any moment....
Otherwise, it?s not like they could?ve let the engines kept on flying knowing that the crankshaft may fail at any moment....
J.B. is doing his job, as he should. Business is business.
While on the subject, remember Superior also sells 320's and 360's. Sometimes less is more.
From the most recent Kitplanes Engine Buyers Guide:
XP-O-320-A1AC2 160 carb, fixed pitch $26300
XP-IO-320-A1AC2 165 HP injected, fixed pitch $27100
XP-O-360-A1AC2 180 HP carb, fixed pitch $26300
XP-IO-360-A1AC2 185 HP injected, fixed pitch $27100
XP-O-320-B1AC2 160 HP carb, constant speed $26600
XP-IO-320-B1AC2 165 HP injected, constant speed $27400
XP-O-360-B1AC2 180 HP injected, constant speed $26600
XP-IO-360-B1AC2 185 HP injected, constant speed $27400
While on the subject, remember Superior also sells 320's and 360's. Sometimes less is more.
From the most recent Kitplanes Engine Buyers Guide:
XP-O-320-A1AC2 160 carb, fixed pitch $26300
XP-IO-320-A1AC2 165 HP injected, fixed pitch $27100
XP-O-360-A1AC2 180 HP carb, fixed pitch $26300
XP-IO-360-A1AC2 185 HP injected, fixed pitch $27100
XP-O-320-B1AC2 160 HP carb, constant speed $26600
XP-IO-320-B1AC2 165 HP injected, constant speed $27400
XP-O-360-B1AC2 180 HP injected, constant speed $26600
XP-IO-360-B1AC2 185 HP injected, constant speed $27400
Superior talked me out of buying their 320 when I purchased years ago. I wanted fuel savings and they pointed out that the 360 will have same fuel burn if you duplicate the 320 settings with your throttle. Minimal cost difference, and you end up with a better climb rate and top speed when you need it. I don?t recall if there was a weight penalty, but I?m 50 lbs heavier than I used to be - engine weight isn?t an issue for me.
Chris Engler
Active Member
Dan - Thanks for summarizing the options from Superior. For me, the key drivers are:
1. Timing and availability of various engines. Hate to cut into the flying season in the North East after the long winter!
2. Avoiding major rework to my current baffle system. In this regard, I'm thinking an IO390 would be darn near a drop in replacement. Next closest would be an angle valve IO 360 and might get away with minimal rework.
3. An opportunity to try a "less is more" approach with regards to both hp and weight. Currently with the XP-400 my empty weight is 1150. I figure a parallel valve option would save around 25 pounds of weight from the nose and 8-10 pounds of lead currently in the tail at the expense of 15-20 hp.
4. Not sweating CHTs and oil temps on hot days...seems like this would favor an angle valve motor (IO 360/390) but careful attention to the baffles should mitigate this issue.
I primarily use my airplane for cross country travel and once I reach cruising altitude, set up for 10 gph somewhere between 22 and 23 square. The extra hp (and weight) really only help with the climb phase since 10 gph with either parallel valve or angle valve would presumably make the same power at the same fuel burn setting and yield the same cruise speed. Top speed numbers are fun to brag about but honestly never really fly anything close to flat out for my normal mission. It would be interesting to see the tradeoff between 25 pounds of weight and 15-20 hp on rate of climb. Essentially I'm lugging around the extra weight in order to get to altitude (say 8000 feet) 30 seconds or so sooner (and burning a bit more fuel that could extend range).
Decisions decisions.....
Moving forward, I'll post what I find out regarding options. One that looks promising based on recent conversations with Barrette is using my 400 as a "core" and building up an 0390 using the Lycoming crank and cylinder assemblies. The folks at Barrett are talking to the folks at Superior about this option and hopefully I'll know more about this on Monday. In the meantime, it's off to the hanger to finish pulling the motor and getting it ready to ship...
I'm one of the unfortunate who used the XP-400, but am sad to see it go. It performed very well on my 14A. I'm now looking at the Lycoming 390 Thunderbolt as as replacement, but I'd like to keep the Superior cold air induction system. Has anyone had experience with fitting the Superior cold air induction to the oil pan/sump of a Lycpoming??
Many folks have done it on the 360, not sure about the 390 - does that use the same 360 case?
KeithB
Well Known Member
3XBuilder:
According to Darren J at Aero Sport Power, the Superior cold air induction sump is a bolt-on replacement on the Lycoming 390. According to Jeff S at Thunderbolt, they will not install any OEM items not on their approved list, and the Superior sump is not on that list - you’d be on your own to do that.
Edit: the “bolt on” fit of the Superior sump has been questioned - do not rely on this input!
Now, Lycoming has a a cold air induction sump for the 390 - it is the C series engine (as in C3B6) listed as 215 HP. I have not been offered it on my Thunderbolt order - open question for Jeff S. I’m also unsure of the impact on exhaust, cowl and cable fits.
According to Darren J at Aero Sport Power, the Superior cold air induction sump is a bolt-on replacement on the Lycoming 390. According to Jeff S at Thunderbolt, they will not install any OEM items not on their approved list, and the Superior sump is not on that list - you’d be on your own to do that.
Edit: the “bolt on” fit of the Superior sump has been questioned - do not rely on this input!
Now, Lycoming has a a cold air induction sump for the 390 - it is the C series engine (as in C3B6) listed as 215 HP. I have not been offered it on my Thunderbolt order - open question for Jeff S. I’m also unsure of the impact on exhaust, cowl and cable fits.
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Thanks for the info. I have worked with Scott Hayes at Superior who says their cold air system will fit on the Lycoming 390. I have worked with Jeff S. at Lycoming to get a "long block" Lyc 390 to replace my XP-400. Superior will allow me to keep all the bolt-on accessories at half their current price--cold air induction, fuel injection, oil filter adapter, starter, fuel pump and dual Light Speed ignitions. The XP-400 is such a close clone of the Lyc 390 that I used all the parts of the Van's FWF kit and Van's exhaust system on the XP-400 with very little modification. I don't know if the Lycoming 360 and 390 share the same case and oil sump.
KeithB
Well Known Member
I learned today from Jeff S that the Superior sump is NOT bolt-on compatible - there seems to be some confusion on this. I also learned that the Lycoming cold air induction sump is available on the 390 as the C3B6 engine (other internal changes in addition to the sump) and this engine is NOT available under Van?s pricing.
Chris Engler
Active Member
While discussing options for the path forward with Barrett, I received the following correspondence from them. The list of items to be replaced in their proposal does not include the cold air sump so I assume they will be using the sump from the 400 and adapting it for use on the new engine. Not sure of the specifics either way but will be able to confirm when the new engine arrives (hopefully) around mid-may. 
We can build your new engine with either an overhauled condition or new crankshaft. An IO-390 would be built with new Lycoming cylinder assemblies. An angle head 360 can be built with either new Lycoming or Superior cylinders, and your choice of stock compression or 10:1 compression pistons.
When your engine arrives here, we will disassemble the engine, NDT and perform dimensional inspection on the crankcases, cam, and all internal steel. We will modify the crankcases for the 390 cylinders if that is your engine selection. We will dynamically balance the replacement crankshaft, paint the engine and will reassemble the engine with the appropriate cylinders After assembly, we will test the engine for a minimum of 1.5 hours, just as we would a new engine.
We will replace the following parts: crankshaft, connecting rods, cylinders, pistons, pins, main and rod bearings, ct?wt retaining rings and plates, all gear attaching bolts, all locking devices, mag drive cushions, intake hoses, drainback hoses, oil pressure relief spring, silicone rocker box cover gaskets, and oil filters. We will install your accessories for use with the engine. The benefit of doing this is that this will ensure the current geometry of your engine so there is no question about exhaust/baffles fitting and you retain your new cases with roller tappet cam/lifters.
We can build your new engine with either an overhauled condition or new crankshaft. An IO-390 would be built with new Lycoming cylinder assemblies. An angle head 360 can be built with either new Lycoming or Superior cylinders, and your choice of stock compression or 10:1 compression pistons.
When your engine arrives here, we will disassemble the engine, NDT and perform dimensional inspection on the crankcases, cam, and all internal steel. We will modify the crankcases for the 390 cylinders if that is your engine selection. We will dynamically balance the replacement crankshaft, paint the engine and will reassemble the engine with the appropriate cylinders After assembly, we will test the engine for a minimum of 1.5 hours, just as we would a new engine.
We will replace the following parts: crankshaft, connecting rods, cylinders, pistons, pins, main and rod bearings, ct?wt retaining rings and plates, all gear attaching bolts, all locking devices, mag drive cushions, intake hoses, drainback hoses, oil pressure relief spring, silicone rocker box cover gaskets, and oil filters. We will install your accessories for use with the engine. The benefit of doing this is that this will ensure the current geometry of your engine so there is no question about exhaust/baffles fitting and you retain your new cases with roller tappet cam/lifters.
Canadian_JOY
Well Known Member
Just a quick comment here from the "less is more" department...
As many here know, the Glasair Sportsman has had the IO-390 as its most popular engine selection since that engine was first made available to Sportsman builders. Everybody seems to like the extra power it provides, especially those who operate on amphibs and floats and those who have opted for the additional 200lbs of gross weight that comes with the Carbon Sportsman.
In contrast to the above, our standard Sportsman is equipped with a carb'd O-360 with standard 8.5:1 compression, rated at 180hp. We operate on trike gear. I can't for the life of me justify more power in this aircraft. It's reasonably fast, economical, reliable, and can burn mogas, an important consideration in controlling direct operating costs, especially where avgas is difficult to find.
While it's always a no-brainer decision to install more horsepower, for aircraft that are already reasonably sprightly, sometimes adding more power just doesn't make sense when "total performance" is kept in mind. As has been pointed out previously in this thread, a weight loss program (aircraft and crew) would potentially bring a much better long-term return on investment than the purchase of more horsepower.
I really feel for those who are going through this engine buy-back, especially just as the first faint hope of spring is appearing over the horizon. Best of luck in whichever path you choose.
As many here know, the Glasair Sportsman has had the IO-390 as its most popular engine selection since that engine was first made available to Sportsman builders. Everybody seems to like the extra power it provides, especially those who operate on amphibs and floats and those who have opted for the additional 200lbs of gross weight that comes with the Carbon Sportsman.
In contrast to the above, our standard Sportsman is equipped with a carb'd O-360 with standard 8.5:1 compression, rated at 180hp. We operate on trike gear. I can't for the life of me justify more power in this aircraft. It's reasonably fast, economical, reliable, and can burn mogas, an important consideration in controlling direct operating costs, especially where avgas is difficult to find.
While it's always a no-brainer decision to install more horsepower, for aircraft that are already reasonably sprightly, sometimes adding more power just doesn't make sense when "total performance" is kept in mind. As has been pointed out previously in this thread, a weight loss program (aircraft and crew) would potentially bring a much better long-term return on investment than the purchase of more horsepower.
I really feel for those who are going through this engine buy-back, especially just as the first faint hope of spring is appearing over the horizon. Best of luck in whichever path you choose.
KeithB
Well Known Member
Lycoming Cold Air Sump
I?ve done all the searches and can?t find an answer. Lycoming offers a 390 with cold air induction - C3B6 model rated at 215 HP (available on the Cirrus SR20 for example). Vans does not offer this (must be A3B6) and I suspect this is because the Lycoming cold air induction sump (like the Superior XP-400 sump) is lower and would interfere with the crossover exhaust (4 in 1) designed for the RV14. However, for my Superior XP400, I substituted a Vetterman trombone system (2x 2-in-1) which does not cross under the sump. Has anyone installed or investigated the C3B6 IO-390 (Thunderbolt, non-certified) engine for an RV-14? I realize I would face changes in cables (throttle and maybe mixture) but I?m more concerned with intake and exhaust pipe spacing and clearing the sump itself.
I?ve done all the searches and can?t find an answer. Lycoming offers a 390 with cold air induction - C3B6 model rated at 215 HP (available on the Cirrus SR20 for example). Vans does not offer this (must be A3B6) and I suspect this is because the Lycoming cold air induction sump (like the Superior XP-400 sump) is lower and would interfere with the crossover exhaust (4 in 1) designed for the RV14. However, for my Superior XP400, I substituted a Vetterman trombone system (2x 2-in-1) which does not cross under the sump. Has anyone installed or investigated the C3B6 IO-390 (Thunderbolt, non-certified) engine for an RV-14? I realize I would face changes in cables (throttle and maybe mixture) but I?m more concerned with intake and exhaust pipe spacing and clearing the sump itself.
