Experiences with buying engines on ebay? Questions to ask?

Hi guys, hopefully an easy question here. I'm considering buying a used IO-540-C4B5 for my -10 that I've seen on ebay. It has very low TT (under 2000) never overhauled, no damage history, which all seems very attractive to me. It comes with logs, but looking through them it appears the last entry was in 1991 (!). So it's apparently been in storage "somewhere" since then. The auction has a ton of watchers, so I'm betting I'm probably not the only one on this forum who's seen it

The paranoid side of me says that some people might only put junk on ebay that they never want to see again, passing their problems on to the next guy. However, I'm willing to take a somewhat calculated risk on this kind of thing too, and I guess I'm seeking advice to help with the calculation

The price seems right given what it is, and of course I understand that there is no REAL way to know the condition without a proper teardown/inspection which I will of course do once it's purchased... but what types of things should I be looking for/asking the seller about in an engine that has sat this long? I'm of course planning a complete overhaul anyway (will be doing myself) but I want to find the best core I can for the money. Any help or advice is greatly appreciated!!!

I would not bid over the core value.

Log book included???

I bought my overhauled O-360 on eBay in 2006 from a pilot's and mechanics school in Fort Lauderdale FL. My A&P wanted to see the engine logs and especially the engine overhaul part listing the inspections accomplished and parts replaced. It has be in my -9A for almost 7 years and 1152 hours. If you are buying it as a core, it is usual that the seller guarantee that the crank, cam, and case will pass inspection and be yellow tagged. Dan

ENGINE

Get a guarantee in writing through Ebay and pay with paypal. I have purchased lots of crashed and damaged engines and most do not have a removal entry showing the history. Just because the logs don't show it doesn't mean its 100% correct.

If its been sitting for that long make sure it turns over. Its a nightmare taking the cylinders off if they are rusted up.

Jesse

I had good luck

It certainly depends on the story behind the engine.
This was an IO-360-A1A. (200 hp)
In my case, it was being offered by the owner of a very reputable shop, and I talked with him in person. He told me he had it rebuilt from a core with unknown history, but it was completely rebuilt as a certified engine with all the tags. There was an inspection of the crankshaft and re-plating the flange by a shop in Los Angeles. The overhaul shop paperwork attested that all "finite-life parts" were replaced.

His plan was to put this engine in his own airplane, but decided on a 180 HP engine instead. (it was in Canada, so there is a more liberal process on changing engines than our STC process or something? Anyway he said he changed his mind because the airplane wouldn't be as marketable.)

No question it was a risk to bid for it on Ebay, but I felt confident in the seller, and it was a fair price. I had to drive to Canada to get it, and bring it back through US Customs -- they spent 30 minutes combing the books to try to figure out how to charge me an import duty to bring a US-built engine back into the US. They finally gave up and let me on my way.

Anyway, 300 hrs of totally trouble-free operation, with very low oil consumption, perfect compression, low CHT's, runs LOP out of the box.

I had good luck. Every situation is probably different and its important to get all the back-story.

Used engines

These guys have been around ebay for awhile now and have good feedback.Not a bad looking core and that's what it is. Machine work is not cheap and it takes time and money to put everything together on a bench ready to assemble.My guess is almost as much as buying a new experimental from Aerosport.So I've got to ask,Whats your edge? How is this a better deal than new from a well known house?It will add time to the project but you learn your engine from the inside out.
RHill

Questions/Guarantees

Ask the seller to guarantee that the crankcases and crankshaft are in repairable condition and that the crankshaft is not affected by any AD's that would take it out of service. An overhauled crankshaft is next to impossible to find these days, and list price on a new one is almost $20,000.

I got lucky. More or less. I bought mine off eBay a few years ago. It had around 975 hours on it and came with logbooks. The guy drove it down from Camas, WA himself. I had originally planned to throw some new jugs on it and run it, but a look at the camshaft killed that idea.

$12k and an IRAN later, I have a most excellent engine, but if I had to do it again, I'd probably just go with a kit and have it built by somebody who knows what they're doing. I still paid less than I would have for a new one from Van's or elsewhere, but I'm not sure if the headache was worth it.

So add to the list: Get borescope pics of the cam lobes if you can. Long shot, but could save you some dough. A thorough inspection by a trusted local source isn't a bad idea either.

Used engine on Ebay

Experience has taught me not to do this. You are building a new aircraft and should install a new engine. That said, I know that cost is the reason builders turn to used. You might get a good deal, but chances are you will not! When all things are considered, you will not save the difference between new, or (built from new parts), and overhauled, and you still have a used engine. Logbooks can be correct, but you MUST consider them as total fantasy! The only way to see what you are buying is a total tear-down, and check of each part!

Do yourself a favor, and avoid a lot of worry and trouble. Build a new kit engine from Superior, or ECI, or buy a new Lycoming through Van.

1635tt ?

Mike

If it's the engine I'm thinking about, I seriously considered buying this one and contacted the guy parting out the aztec.
The reason I didn't was I found a recently overhauled prop strike off another aztec which seems a better deal. (New cylinders at overhaul etc) I'm having this engine rebuilt now and will end up with a 0smoh for 2/3 the price of a new engine.

When I contacted the seller of the engine your looking at he said he would guarantee the case and crank. So for that price I think it's a good starting point.
He mentioned that the sister engine had already been sold and when split for overhaul was in good shape.
So if you price it, on the value of the case and crank and assume you'll need to replace most other bits then anything you find you can still use will be a bonus.

Another thing to consider is this is a narrow deck engine. There are no problems with these engines and according to my overhaul shop are better than early wide deck, you just have to consider if sometime in the future parts may become harder to get.
Converting the C4B5 to A4D5 spec is quite straight forward the main change being the engine mount ears, you will need the small hole ears.
The rest of the engine is almost identical.

Cheers

Peter

mikeyj350 said:

<SNIP> So it's apparently been in storage "somewhere" since then. <SNIP> Any help or advice is greatly appreciated!!!

Click to expand...

This help isn't much, but you did ask for "any" help. From the one view of the logbook I saw, it appears:

1) the "somewhere" might have been in Italy.

2) whoever buys this engine should be able to read Italian in order to read the logbook! Update: I found the other photo on the second line of photos. The 1968 engine log is in English and indicates work was done in Geneva ( I would assume Switzerland). Hmmm...1968...this engine is at least 46 years old and has been out of service how long? Since 1991 maybe? That's 23 years!

My opinion is that you have gotten some good advice from the other posters. You're building a new airplane. (An RV-10 no less!) Why not buy or build a new engine?

My 2 cents...

Once apon a time in America and thick flanged prop hubs

There was a time when American machines lead the Mechanized world with the quality of metals and finished products.After and if this crank yellow tags to new standards not service limits,its worth two thirds the value of the asking price.Nothing wrong with a narrow deck case,it will require ND cylinders if these are not serviceable,cams can and are routinely welded and reground.No one has said the 74502 rods had an issue so if they pass muster should be good to go.Its a lot of work getting all these parts on a bench specked out and ready to assemble it will add time to your build,you'll learn a lot about your engine,more than you wanted to know and save a couple of dollars,enough to justify the time spent on this side project is for you to decide.Your resale will never be what a new Vans,Aerosport,or Barrett(big house brand) Engine would be but it wont be that far behind. If you dont have $45,000 in one chunk its another way to get the job done but understand your going to spend $20,000 or more to make this RV ready.Ask me how I know.
RHill

rhill said:

There was a time when American machines lead the Mechanized world with the quality of metals and finished products.After and if this crank yellow tags to new standards not service limits,its worth two thirds the value of the asking price.Nothing wrong with a narrow deck case,it will require ND cylinders if these are not serviceable,cams can and are routinely welded and reground.No one has said the 74502 rods had an issue so if they pass muster should be good to go.Its a lot of work getting all these parts on a bench specked out and ready to assemble it will add time to your build,you'll learn a lot about your engine,more than you wanted to know and save a couple of dollars,enough to justify the time spent on this side project is for you to decide.Your resale will never be what a new Vans,Aerosport,or Barrett(big house brand) Engine would be but it wont be that far behind. If you dont have $45,000 in one chunk its another way to get the job done but understand your going to spend $20,000 or more to make this RV ready.Ask me how I know.
RHill

Click to expand...

I got a quote from Zephyr for ~$23k to rebuild a similar core a year or two ago. At the bottom line I was looking at a $15k savings over a new engine from Van's.

Do your homework!

I was watching a very recent O-360-A1A on ebay that went for 4999.00. The ad and the pictures would lead you to believe that it was a great engine. A copy of some pages the log books were also posted.

An interested party posted a question about the engine and asked about damage and such. The seller said it was in good running condition when removed and a new engine was being put on the aircraft to be replace it.

I did a little digging based on the information on the logs. The digging turned into lots of useful information and even to watching a video of the aircraft the engine was on after it landed on the runway with the gear collapsing! Oh yeah, the aircraft was scrapped and no new engine was put on it. No damage...right! That's not what the prop said! Of course that wasn't in the ad.

I sent the seller a message about the damage and the video...surprisingly, they didn't respond.

Do your homework!

Thanks

Hey guys, thanks for all the responses. I appreciate some of your thoughts on the new plane/new engine stance, however one of my main mission goals for this project is to perform my own rebuild and not buy new. Cost is only a portion of that decision-- I am pretty well experienced with automotive engine rebuilding and plan on using that experience to my advantage to learn about the engine going into my -10.

I spoke with the seller, and Bob at AS, and formulated what I thought would be a pretty low-risk plan to purchase the engine and begin the whole inspection and rebuild process, just in time for someone else to swoop in and buy the engine first ... oh well, that's the way things go! Everything happens for a reason... and I have plenty of time before I actually *need* an engine...

The hunt for a low-TT C4B5 or D4A5 continues...