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Why no Quick Build RV-4?

Dangerous Dan

Dangerous Dan

Active Member
When I wrote Vans asking about a QB RV-4. I got the politically correct answer "we have no plans to market a quick Build RV-4".

I will own an RV-4 with in two years and having one custom built for me might make financial sense if Vans offered a QB kit.

With an offer of $28K labor only to assemble a slow build, and Average complete bird price of mid fiftys. It seems to make financial sense to buy one and modify it into "my bird".

It is obviously Vans choice to do or not do anything they want. And only they truly know the real reason... But my inquireing mind want to know .... why not? Any ideas?
 
Older design, doesn't sell well enough to warrent a quickbuild kit. Emphasis is on the -8 for that. Same reason it isn't match-hole.
 
I suspect the fact that the -4 requires significantly more layout, drilling, attention to drilling in the correct spot, less pre fab parts, the $kil level, read co$t to quick-build vs number sold vs robbing some -8 quick build kits etc, makes a weak business case to offer the -4 as a quick-build.
 
Saw the -4 first, liked the look of it and the motorcycle "feel". Flew the -4 once, fell in love. Perhaps a bit much airplane for me at the moment (180 hr) but something good to grow in to. A -4QB would be awfully tempting.... I'm concentrating on my IFR rating at the moment and am thinking more about a more IFR-oriented airplane (e.g., -9, C182). However, the fun factor of a -4 would be hard to beat.

TODR
 
1. I understand that there are people who apreciate the aircraft that can be built under the EAB category, but are not interested in building their own aircraft

This forum is full of aircraft made available for sale, and that is the best option for these people

2. I was a part of a conversation with a gentlemen at the Van's tent, and he was talking about getting a kit and hiring a couple people he trusts to build it, and let him certify it. He was very matter of fact about it.

Now, we are faced with the FAA looking to close the loop hole that many people are using, and making it more difficult for the rest of us. Thankfully the existing kits are grandfathered.

I just get really frustrated with people who don't think the rules apply to them, and in the process wind up getting the rest of us trampled on.

I am a relatively new poster, but I have lurked for years, and I apologize for jumping in the middle of an issue that I am sure has been hashed, and rehashed.
 
Buy a one and have it redone if you want it built to your specs, thats the way, especially since you can get a -4 for pretty cheap. Just have a good prebuy done on it. There are plenty of RV savvy people that can rebuild one...
 
Interesting rules.

If you can buy an already built RV4 then why can't you have one largely custom built for you? It appears safer to have one built by people you know and trust than to buy an already built plane from a stranger. I bought an RV4 from a friend of my brothers and it has been a great plane. On the other hand a friend bought an RV8 and later found it to have four spar bolts missing. Some rules don't make any sense.

BTW, to the 180 hr pilot, get an RV4, its easy to fly and the visibility and power can save your butt. I bought one as a 50hr pilot and now have almost 500 hours. Great plane to learn on.
 
Nonsensical

Still doesn't make any sense. Say a professional built an RV4, could they not then sell it as an amateur, not a professional built experimental plane? Someone who is not a rank amateur can't build it? What's the difference between buying a plane built by a professional/legal to having a professional help build your plane/not legal? Getting a professional to consult and help build an RV4 makes good sense, much safer that way wouldn't you agree? Silly rules get broken. Maybe they could get revised to make more sense. I think whatever promotes safety should apply. The fear for any builder, amateur or professional should be liability for what they sell.
 
Perhaps it's time to revisit the rules and make some changes. How about not allowing an amateur who builds an airplane to sell it, period. I mean, who would want to buy a plane built by an amateur? Why should anyone be allowed to sell an airplane without a type certificate? Especially an amateur.
 
rrnixonjr said:
Perhaps it's time to revisit the rules and make some changes. How about not allowing an amateur who builds an airplane to sell it, period. I mean, who would want to buy a plane built by an amateur? Why should anyone be allowed to sell an airplane without a type certificate? Especially an amateur.
Click to expand...
I've got a better idea. Why not dump all these stupid rules! Anyone who wants to buy and/or ride in an amateur built aircraft is on their own and the builder is off the hook if something goes wrong. Sounds kind of like the LSA rules to me.
 
Rules

Lets go a little farther. If what you are proposing is a good Idea why don't we include Cessna, Piper, Boeing, Airbus, et. al. Dump all the lawyers and "Get er done".

The rules are there for a reason.
 
We are talking about amateur built experimental aircraft Mannanj. The rules appear to be full of holes like swiss cheese. It's time for the FAA to tighten them up but how tight? Should amateurs be allowed to sell their amateureously built aircraft? Should they have to certify them before selling them? I mean, the rules seem rather lax if an amateur can sell an aircraft but a professional can't because he chooses not to build it for his own personal use. Never really thought of it till now. It's a real conundrum.:rolleyes:
 
What the rules should be has absolutely no bearing on what the rules are. I know what they are, you now know what they are. It's up to us to honor those rules so they don't get MUCH more restrictive. Companies like Lancair, New Glasair, to say nothing of the professional build shops have stretched the rules sooo far that the FAA is now reviewing and most likely tightening them. Please don't contribute to that.

The point of the experimental AB rule is to allow a guy to design and airplane, and build it. The kit idea is a fairly new one, that Van's got down to a T, and that Lancair overdid with the Evolution...
 
RV 4 quickbuild kits

Dangerous Dan said:
When I wrote Vans asking about a QB RV-4. I got the politically correct answer "we have no plans to market a quick Build RV-4".

I will own an RV-4 with in two years and having one custom built for me might make financial sense if Vans offered a QB kit.

With an offer of $28K labor only to assemble a slow build, and Average complete bird price of mid fiftys. It seems to make financial sense to buy one and modify it into "my bird".

It is obviously Vans choice to do or not do anything they want. And only they truly know the real reason... But my inquireing mind want to know .... why not? Any ideas?
Click to expand...


There are two RV 4 quickbuild kits being completed near to where I live in the U.K. They were aquired from a company in the Czech Republic that build Harmon stuff. They have a website - www.r4.cz/en/contact.html. One of the guys building one of these RV 4 quckbuild kits is a friend.

Happy landings.


Address:
U průhonu 3643
Měln?k 27601
CZECH REPUBLIC
Maps

Telephone: +420 315 670 005

e-mail:
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected] [email protected]
 
Thanks for the info

Oops did not realize about the rules. Thanks for making me aware of what might hurt the "freedom" experimental aircraft folks have now. That idea is definately OUT! The rules are the rules. waaaaa

Guess if I want to buy a professionally built, experimental aircraft, need to look at a P-51 Mustang or F8F Bearcat ... I wish, he he he

Wrenching on my certified Tri-pacer up dating instruments etc has made me painfully aware of the rules (337s & field approvals) that were not even thought of when it was built. I know playing by the rules is job one in aviation.

Thank you, Dan
 
Theory vs Reality...

For what it's worth, you can buy a flying RV4 right now for what it costs to build one. I built mine for 26K back in 96' and put 1500 hours on it before selling it last summer. I recommend getting your A&P, buy a flying -4 and press on. Cutting corners will end up costing you (and the rest of us)more...

Rob Ray
F16, RV4ormerly
HR2
 
Thanks for educating Me

OK, I had a bad idea and now I know an illeagle one too. Ignorance is no excuse. Luckily, I have VAF guiding and educating me. Thanks to you all!

Where are all these rules written down?

Thanks again, Dan
 
no RV-4 quickbuilds

It seems to me that I saw production numbers on the kits per year and they only sell 2 VR-4 kits/year and so it would make no sense to do all the tooling that it takes to make a quick build.

Bill.
 
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bill price said:
It seems to me that I saw production numbers on teh kits per year and they only sell 2 VR-4 kits/year and so it would make no sense to do all the tooling that it takes to make a quick build.

Bill.
Click to expand...

I wonder how many kits they would sell, if the did the tooling, and offered a quick build???

Kinda like the old chicken and egg conundrum
 
It seems this thread went a little off-topic and became about whether or not it's okay to hire someone to build a plane for you. I'd like to return to the original question for a second.

I talked to a Vans rep at Oshkosh, and he openly volunteered that at least one engineer at Vans was either pushing for and/or actively working on converting the RV4 designs to be quick-buildable / pre-punched. I waited around for news of this to break on the forum, but didn't see any mention of it.

Did anyone else hear this? Does the rumor have any validity?

I've been set on the -8, but I think I'd go for a -4 if it were available in QB form.
 
The topic of a re-engineered -4 to make the kit more like its big brothers was broached at Oshkosh.. Ken Krueger even showed a couple of cad sketches to illustrate a few concepts being kicked around for future things for the engineering staff to do once they finished all the work on the -12.

Standard comments like - "this isn't a committed project", "don't know about market demand", etc.

I think a pre-punched kit would revive the -4, but at the expense of a number of -8 kits. Company has to think long and hard before eating its own young.

The problem as I see it as the labor to build a quickbuild -4 kit would be almost the same as a QB -8 kit - at a lower sales point.

Unless you can convince yourself the market for people who want to build -4s and do not want or will not build -8s is big enough to justify the not inconsiderable expense of re-engineering the -4 it will not get done based on economics alone.

Van has proved himself no idiot when it comes to creating a viable, successful company. I don't expect him to "go stupid" on us now.

Having said that the fastback canopy on the "new -4" concept drawing looked neat, even as the -8 style wide cowling on it looked terrible. The cowl cheeks make the -3 and -4 the best looking of the breed IMHO. Why you would give that up for a couple inches width in a tandem sportplane escapes me.

But it is all a dream I think anyway......
 
Actually I would vote for an pre-punched, ready for QB RV-14 (you wouldn't want an RV-13 now would you) that would be based on beefed up RV-4/8 to take a six cylinder engine. Add in the cool looking fastback canopy and there ya go.

That might get my juices going to build one post the RV-10 I'm working on.

Guess I've described a "rocket"....

Or to get a little more carried away put one of those Russian radials in the front and go retro....

Add some jato bottles just for the fun that's in it.

Then, for the man that has everything, one designed to take the 400HP Rolls Royce turbo-shaft that weighs something under 250lbs and add new meaning to vertical penetration.

Then again, there's nothing stopping any of us from doing those things. That's why they call it "experimental" after all.

Maybe if I find oil in my backyard I can pull a Jed Clampett but instead of a "cement pond" I can build my very own thrill ride.....
 
bill price said:
It seems to me that I saw production numbers on the kits per year and they only sell 2 VR-4 kits/year and so it would make no sense to do all the tooling that it takes to make a quick build.

Bill.
Click to expand...

I had some general questions I asked Scott at Van's, which he replied to me today, and that was one of my questions. He said Van's sells about ten RV-4 a year. Hopefully, that's enough to keep 'em supplying kits, I sure wouldn't want this bird to go away.

Finally seen one locally yesterday that was up for sale, and the plane just looked bullet proof, with outstanding workmanship to detail. Very tight skins, unlike what you see on some planes and designs where it looks like tin-canning can be a problem.

Part of me wants to build, another part says buy. I know I can't build one for what he's asking for it, so it's a tough call, but kind of leaning towards building because I can sort of pay as I go that way.

If you go to Barnstormers for the one listed in Wichita Falls yesterday for $44,950, I can assure you this one will not dissapoint you.
 
RV4 shipping rate?

wrongway john said:
He said Van's sells about ten RV-4 a year.
Click to expand...

Thats interesting, I thought it was more than that. My serial # is 4478 and that shipped late October '05. At 10 a year we should be nearly at 4518. I thought it was higher than that.

Anyone got a recent number and ship date?
 
Q B RV 4

Dan
The word here is that Vans can't put together a QB 4 because of the 51% rule. How true that is not sure however I asked why can'y Vans WRITE a set of instructions like the RV12 for the QB9A. Like the other models the QB borders on the 51% rule. I suspect the whatever Vans had to provide for data on the 9A to the FAA that it would be costly to change the instructions for building the 9A. If you get the chance to see the plans for the RV12 they are perfect. Its like counting to 100. Nothing is left out!! I mean nothing. I might even write out my own building instructions for my QB 9A kit. I'am taking video & stills. I to got stuck in the beginning. Brain dead! Why did I never buy this KIT!!!
3 months ago I stood up BRAVELY at my EAA chapter meeting and said I GIVE UP & I hardly started! I need HELP! Well 3 members put up their hands up and said they'll talk to me at the end of the meeting. I felt like i was the campfire and the scouts stood around me. I'am on my way building and can't stop wanting to make parts as the plans call out. Tonite I asked my wife if we could do something special if you know what I mean!! Her answer was why don't you go to the hangar tonite. I DID. 4 new angle pcs made for the seats. 2hrs 45 minutes. I think I have a new LINE to use on my wife. Ron 9A
 
Steve Sampson said:
Thats interesting, I thought it was more than that. My serial # is 4478 and that shipped late October '05. At 10 a year we should be nearly at 4518. I thought it was higher than that.

Anyone got a recent number and ship date?
Click to expand...

I read once on here I think that, when asked if he planned to quit making -4 kits and parts, Van said something like, "then what would the Rocket guys do....".

He might sell 10 kits but sells more parts that get used elsewhere. As far as the 51% rule, they could make one and not even get close. You are arguably on 50 percent there with 100% of the airframe done.... Leave off a wing skin or two, let the builder make the empennage and there 'ya go.
 
smokyray said:
A QB Harmon Rocket is much more tempting...:)
Trust me!

Smokey
HR2
Click to expand...

rbibb said:
Actually I would vote for an pre-punched, ready for QB RV-14 (you wouldn't want an RV-13 now would you) that would be based on beefed up RV-4/8 to take a six cylinder engine. Add in the cool looking fastback canopy and there ya go.

Then, for the man that has everything, one designed to take the 400HP Rolls Royce turbo-shaft that weighs something under 250lbs and add new meaning to vertical penetration.
Click to expand...

Now wer're talking. :D
 
rbibb said:
I read once on here I think that, when asked if he planned to quit making -4 kits and parts, Van said something like, "then what would the Rocket guys do....".
Click to expand...

Yeah, I remember that line. It came from Smokey when he seen Richard one day and asked him point blank: "Are you going to continue to support the RV-4?" To which Richard replied something like what you just wrote. :D
 
He said Van's sells about ten RV-4 a year. Hopefully, that's enough to keep 'em supplying kits, I sure wouldn't want this bird to go away.
Click to expand...

Perhaps if they offered a quick build kit, those dismal sales number would increase. How many RV-8's might there be today if there were no quick build option?? I dare say far less than are currently being enjoyed.
 
Geez,

Before you need the QB, how about a simple pre-punch kit. I think the 3 and 4 would be VERY popular as pre-punched kits.

Given their size and relative simplicity, I bet there would be little advantage to a QB over a prepunch. Plus, how cheap could you build an rv-3 O-235 than would still be a reall acro screamer? Prepunched I bet you could build it in a year.
 
The cost to develop a QB kit is a negligable increment over the cost of developing the pre-punch kit.

The non-trivial cost to develop a pre-punch kit with uncertain incremental demand over the -8 is the issue. Why spend a lot of money if you are not going to bring in incremental revenue?

You might, in fact, bring in some incremental revenue with a pre-punched -4 kit, but at what expense to the -8 kits?

Those nasty economics get in the way....
 
Although it’s not matched hole, they do have pre-punched skins for the RV-4 wing skins now, which will allow one to simply use it as a template to drill out the ribs and spars. The RV-3 has this now too. This isn't too bad, actually. By not being matched hole, it will allow one to heat the outer skin slightly if they choose to get really drum tight skins, provided they keep the heat uniform (nothing like the sun) and keep the ribs and spar a bit cooler. I doubt it's needed, but some really believe in this.
 
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QB or buy it

A QB kit might get me to build a -4, but with the prices and availability of birds ready to go, my current plan is to buying most of the features I want and then pay a "Vans builder / mechanic / chop shop" to go through it making it mine. This is my plan at this point.

The hard part is I need about five more years of danger pay and long hours to be financially ready for a life in the USA. Should be moving to Afghan, Oct or Jan. So like my Tri Pacer, my -4 will sit in the hanger available for anyone to fly that is willing to replace the gas they use.

Seems I will be in a financial positon to start -4 shopping next summer, after Air venture. When I hope to actually sit in one.

Instead of making a -4 QB I hope Vans uses that energy to come out with a jet .. I am hoping it will be cross between F-86 and RV-4. Then I might have to build that. Yeah an F-86-4 yeaaaah that's IT :D
 
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