Please critique my panel.

This is my first crack at the panel layout for 313TD.



This link opens it full-size.

I'm missing the aux power and audio input, but this is the current layout. Apologies for the half-***** throttle quadrant drawing, that's just in there to give me a rough guide for obstruction of switches by the real thing.

To do the layout, I used a CAD program called DraftSight, which is free, and uses dwg files as its native format, so I was easily able to copy and paste switches from the Aeroelectric Connection into the panel drawings available from Van's.

I'd put the transponder underneath the Garmin, above the switches Rosie

Hi John,

Looks like a nice clean layout. Are you planning on flying IFR? or just VFR Day/Night? Either way I would suggest a backup instrument to your EFIS such as an analog ASI and altimeter and possibly A.I. if you plan on taking it IFR. That's the biggest thing for me, even though I love all the electronics available to experimentals, it never hurts to be ready for when the screens go blank.

Graham

make sure you check the clearances for your tip up canopy

Eventually I'll take it IFR, but not before I put in a backup EFIS like a Dynon D10 or more likely, MGL Xtreme. With the EFISes each having their own backup battery, that would give me redundant flight instruments and 3 levels of power redundancy. I'd also get a second comm radio like the MGL V10.

Stupid question...

Unless I'm missing something, you have one com and one nav source (the 430)... so why the need for the very nice, but also a bit pricey audio panel?

This from a VFR only pilot who has only ever used audio panel to switch between two com's...

Edit: just saw your comment about adding future equip, which makes more sense.

What Rosie said...

Rosie said:

I'd put the transponder underneath the Garmin, above the switches Rosie

Click to expand...

...is a more usual installation....looks good.

Best,

Panel drawing size

As stated above, make sure to account for the 3/4 by 3/4 aluminum angle on the upper perimeter of the panel.

Second and more important. The drawing file I obtained from Van's some years ago was the turret punch drawing PRIOR TO BENDING. I think this is still what is supplied on the website. Make sure to account for the ACTUAL height of the panel and the bend radii at the bottom flange.

Java, How would you ID the VOR without the audio panel. I guess you could wire it in but the audio panel makes it a snap, also adding a switchable panel after the fact is quite a bit of work when you want the second radio. I did this last year and I was quite a feat for me.
Regards

hydroguy2 said:

make sure you check the clearances for your tip up canopy

Click to expand...

Yeah, This layout would not allow you install the canopy eject handle. If you want that, you'll need to lower the middle radio stack. a few inches. I think if you can line up the top of the center stack with the mgl, it'll look a little better anyway and allow the canopy eject. I think 1 row of switches looks better even if it extends right of the middle stack. You can drop the headset inputs down closer to the bottom flange.

The xpdr generates more heat than any of the other "boxes". I put mine on top for this very reason. I have audio, NAV/COMM, Xpdr bottom to top based on heat generated by each. Just a thought.

RV8R999 said:

The xpdr generates more heat than any of the other "boxes". I put mine on top for this very reason. I have audio, NAV/COMM, Xpdr bottom to top based on heat generated by each. Just a thought.

Click to expand...

The Garmin 327 transponder in the RV-8 I fly hardly generates any heat at all... always stays cool to the touch. The 430 gets a little warm however, even with it's internal cooling fan.

tadsargent said:

Java, How would you ID the VOR without the audio panel. I guess you could wire it in but the audio panel makes it a snap, also adding a switchable panel after the fact is quite a bit of work when you want the second radio. I did this last year and I was quite a feat for me.
Regards

Click to expand...

I didn't use an audio panel when I wired up the RV-8, only a PM-3000 stereo intercom. I used one of the two unswitched aux audio inputs on the intercom for the 430's VOR audio, and the other for the Dynon's audio alert.

VOR? What's that?

tadsargent said:

Java, How would you ID the VOR without the audio panel. I guess you could wire it in but the audio panel makes it a snap, also adding a switchable panel after the fact is quite a bit of work when you want the second radio. I did this last year and I was quite a feat for me.
Regards

Click to expand...

Another reason I hadn't thought of, but to be honest, I don't think I've used VOR's for navigation since my checkride.

Local navigation I do by looking out the window... longer by GPS and charts.

dhall_polo said:

Yeah, This layout would not allow you install the canopy eject handle. If you want that, you'll need to lower the middle radio stack. a few inches. I think if you can line up the top of the center stack with the mgl, it'll look a little better anyway and allow the canopy eject. I think 1 row of switches looks better even if it extends right of the middle stack. You can drop the headset inputs down closer to the bottom flange.

Click to expand...

I deleted the canopy eject handle during that point in the build. The pins are secured by bolts and bars adel-clamped to the hinge block brackets, so behind the subpanel is wide open space. You make a good point about lining up the top of the stack with the EFIS. Maybe I'll put the switches on the top row and the xpdr on the bottom, but I'll have to check out interference and obstruction of the buttons from view or reach.

The clearance to the angle behind the panel is good, that's one of the first things I checked, and the panel outline is modified from Van's in that I measured from top to bottom on my actual panel and put the bottom line at that distance. If van's drawing is a pre-bent part that would totally make sense as to why it seemed a lot taller than my panel.

Thanks for all your suggestions and comments, this is a big help.

Noise

Another reason to put the tranponder below the GNS430 is to separate it from the audio panel. We have found that if you put the audio panel too close to the transponder you are more likely to pick up transponder noise on the audio system. This becomes especially bothersome if you have noise cancelling headsets since you can hear electrical noise above the normal cabin noise. But as with all things electrical, YMMV.

I like it

As to the audio panel, the MGL EFIS is designed to run a remote radio, so there is another possibility.

A Couple of things

Hi John,

A couple of things come to mind

1) I'd move the headset jacks off the panel. On my tip up, I have them mounted on the support beam from the roll bar to the baggage bulkhead. Keeps the wires out of our way during flight, entry and egress.

2) I can't tell what the audio panel is but give some consideration to the PSE 8000 with MP3 and blue tooth. It is a drop in replacement for the 340. Excellent piece of equipment.

3) Also consider another comm like and SL40. Very helpful when flying in busy airspace.

4) As Rosie noted, put the transponder on the bottom.

5) I don't know if the MGL incorporates the auto pilot but either way, take a look at the Trutrak Gemini auto pilot. This gives you an auto pilot, altimeter, airspeed and artificial horizon all in one instrument. An all in one back up for IFR.

6) Don't know if you are locked into the MGL but take a look at the Advanced Flight 5600. It is a big screen TV as well. It is the next evolution in the proven AFS line.

7) Consider another screen on the right side to balance things out and give you some back up.

You don't mention what your time frame is for completion but be flexible. Things change monthly and you might have a complete do over

I like to have the top of the audio panel stand proud of the instrument panel surface -- that gives you a little "ledge" to rest your fingers on to stabilize your hand when pushing avionics buttons in turbulence. -- DHeal

toggle placement

Just my thoughts, but I would not put the master (or any toggles) under the audio/xponder stack. I have more than once been reaching for the audio stack only to hit turbulence. If the toggles were under your hand it could shut them off. Even with guards I would not put them there.

Look at Doug?s toggle placement (top of the panel). Or others have put them on the left of the EFIS. I would not put them below the EFIS or when you climb out you might knock the master on with your knee.

Yep, xponder on the bottom.

My, what a big MFD you have...

My comment is about comm jack location. I'm not a fan of having them on the panel. My soultion was to make a small jack housing behind my elbow on the arm rest. it doesn't get in the way, adds some strength to the arm rest and the wires can be tucked under your harness out or the way.



Jekyll
7A

John,

You've given this some great thought, and the suggestions are also great. Here's my thoughts to add fuel...

Move the headset jacks lower, or off the panel (Jekyl, that was a cool solution, one of the neatest I've seen!)

Move the DC power panel (Master sw, ALT Field cb, and E-bus sw) left of the EFIS, under the mag switches (mag sw's might have to move up slightly). That way you have the before start/start switches grouped (and a bit out of the way). Do you have a starter button? It could go over there too (or is it on the stick)? I like those items on the left, so that my right hand is on the throttle and/or mixture for start. Just one technique, of course.

Then you could have the boost pump, flaps, lights and pitot heat switches on one row, below the stack, and could lower them all to the level you now have the flaps switch. This puts all the before takeoff/landing, and inflight switches in a group near your throttle hand, and would allow you to lower the stack so the top device is even with the MGL. I'd probably go with pitot heat closest to the MGL (least used), then boost pump, then flaps where you have it now, then the lights...nice little takeoff and landing flow there.

Actual placement of the flaps switch could be determined by how you hold your hand on the throttle...hand on top, or right side of the throttle crossbar between your index finger and thumb. If its the latter, you may want to move the flap switch to the right. Just another nit-noid to think about.

I concur with Rosie and the others...audio panel on top, 430, then 327 below.

Have fun putting it together...its a place where you can really personalize things to your taste and techniques. Don't stay up too many nights thinking about it though (like I did! )

Cheers,
Bob

Where are all the instruments? All I see is a TV screen.

Ron Lee said:

Where are all the instruments? All I see is a TV screen.

Click to expand...

Just change the channel on the TV Ron...they're all in there somewhere!

Heck, it's also got the weather channel, the travel channel, nat geo, speed channel and the movie channel too (visual or IR, if you select that option).

PS/Caution: Once you try it (if you haven't already) you may never go back!

Cheers,
Bob

Panel

John, Nice job on the panel. I am also using Draft Sight to layout my friends RV7A panel. Where did you get the full size radio templates?

Thanks
Eddie

Eddie,

in DraftSight, I brought in the high-res images of the components as reference images, then scaled them to the bezel dimensions called out in the install manuals. MGL gives you a template for both bezel and cutout in theirs. To obtain the actual images, I just did a Google image search, then chose the highest resolution ones I could find, then cropped them to the bezel edges in Photoshop. You could do the same thing in GIMP, which is free, and supported on Windows, Mac, and Linux.

The only issue with DraftSight with reference images is that exporting PDF files does not export the images into the PDF. The image I posted is a screen grab.

For the PDF I sent to my cousin in Yuma, I used DraftSight's print function, then saved as PDF from the print menu.

Where's the...

.... trim switches, the handles for alternate air and cabin heat? And if you live in a cold climate and need a way to adjust airflow to the oil-cooler during winter; where's the handle for that one?

Have you considered going with the stock setup for thr/mix/prop cables and mounting? Then your knees won't bump into the throttle quadrant all the time. (my flaming suit in on from now on... hehe...)

And then the stack and switches could be moved down so the upper edges line up.

Placing the only flight-instruments so far to the left, makes it difficult for your passenger to fly the plane.

Also; having this much panel-space to spare, you could easily install the mapbox.

I'd also move the headset jacks off the panel and to underneath the support-bar which goes aft from the roll-bar as other have mentioned. Great place!

And yes; if it's not too late have a look at the AFS 5400 and the 4500's.

Lastly; where is the mag compass? In Norway it's required to have one but maybe not in the US? Anyway; having one could easily save your bacon one day when the electrons decide to quite on you when flying above the clouds. At least, It'll point you in the right direction....

MGL on top of panel support screws?

Love your panel.
I'm also going with the MGL on a tipup.
How did you solve the problem of the two panel support
screws being placed right in the middle of the MGL.
Did you relocate the panel support rib?
Ed

thelynns said:

Love your panel.
I'm also going with the MGL on a tipup.
How did you solve the problem of the two panel support
screws being placed right in the middle of the MGL.
Did you relocate the panel support rib?
Ed

Click to expand...

That was easy. I cut the left side support rib off at the subpanel.

Search the VAF archives for suggestions on what to do with this rib. Some have moved the rib inboard and reattached it to the subpanel with a piece of angle.

I also read a while back that you can replace that support by means of some .058-wall tubing, threaded at each end, running from a point above the efis to a point on the subpanel, maybe another one below it. I think it was azgila who suggested it. That's probably what I'll do, but right now, with the tray for the GNS430 anchored to the subpanel and the panel, it doesn't look like much extra support is going to be necessary.