Approach question for the experts

We had 800 ceilings the other day, so I went to practice and stay current. Vis was good, so it seemed like a perfect day for practice. I didn't think about the cold front moving through, however. By the third Rnav approach, I couldn't see the runway lights at DH (250'). It was a smaller airport and the opposite of the runway from the ILS and they weren't strong lights. I shot three more, going missed each time. It was good practice, as this was the first time that I was doing approaches in actually conditions with turbulence. By the 6th approach, I had a vicious headache from being kicked around the sky and really wanted to be on the ground. I went to a nearby airport with an ILS that was in lighter rain. By this time visibility was down to about a 1 - 1 1/4 miles, but ceilings still called out at 700'. What was surprising to me was the inability to see the ground at 400', supposedly under the ceiling.

So I am on ILS 09 (all that approach would offer me) and the winds are 300 @ 15G22. The controller tells me I am cleared for ILS 09 with a circle to 27. I was able to see the lights a bit before 200' and felt comfortable making the runway. However, I became very uncomfortable with the thought of doing a 180* turn at 200 AGL with the crappy visibility. I honestly didn't think that I would be able to maintain visual contact with the runway during the 180. The runway was almost 7000', so I decided to land on 09. It was uneventful and landed with plenty of buffer. However, it really got me think what if the runway was shorter, winds worse, etc.

To you guys with lots of experience, how do you handle this? Clearly I need more practice with Circling at low altitudes, but how do you judge whether you can maintain visual contact. With all of the turbulence, I imagine it would be hard to hold my altitude if all of my attention is out the window trying to keep the field in sight. The RV6 does not hold altitude well without constant attention and 200' is not a lot of buffer. I clearly didn't appreciate exactly how hard it is to see the runway with 1 mile visibility and rain. I can now truly appreciate why the lights are so important to the approach.

Thanks for sharing your expertise.

EDIT: As I think about this, I am sure the circling minimums are well above 200 and would have had to climb up to 500' or so to legally/safely circle. Also, at DA I was probably well over a 1000' from the runway and I may not have had a problem seeing the runway from 500 AGL. However, the 180 could easily take me 1000' away again.

Larry

Some thoughts for you. If your DH was 250' for the precision straight in the circle minimums were probably 450' or greater so you would have been below minimums to circle. Next, circling at minimums is probably one of the most dangerous IFR maneuvers you can do. With that in mind you need to set some personal minimums based on your experience, condition of your aircraft, recent flight experience, airport facilities and weather conditions. Blend these together and decide what your minimums are for that day before takeoff. If your destination doesn't meet these criteria, then go some where else. I use a point system

Safety Management


Currency:
Not flown in > 14 days. 1
Not flown in > 30 days. 2
Not flown in > 3 Months. 3

Airport
Runway less than 3000? 1
Mountain airport 1
Unfamiliar airport. 1
Greater than 4000? MSL. 1

Weather factors
Marginal VFR 1
IFR 2
Low IFR <400/2. 3
Winds > 20 Kts. 1
Crosswind > 10 KTS. 1
Crosswind > 15 KTS. 2

Add factors
5 or greater consider re planning

Precision to a circle- how can you set up your nav suite to help you? The 3 degree path will leave you about 2 miles from the touchdown zone of the arrival at 600'. Rather low, near most circling mins, but further than required vis for our cat, IF you then have ceilings by circling MDA from the precision approach. You don't fly any lower on the vertical path guidance than the circling MDA published on that precision apch plate for your category.

You break out of the ceilings and level off and trim up for level with pitch/power set. Now, you need circling vis by the MAP, or you go missed for the precision approach.

If you get visual by the MAP, circle as instructed or as published, in that order. If you go missed out on base to the landing runway, it can be a long 270 degree climbing turn in the clag, after having flown a few minutes of ground contact/panel scan- challenging and 6 is a bunch without a break, solo. Climbout in lieu of published missed, if instructed.

If you know visually or build electronically a midfield downwind, a 45 base at circling mins that gives a 3 or 4 degree arrival on final, you can stay about 1.5 miles from the runway. Obviously with higher ceilings and better vis it becomes more of your normal pattern. If on a criss-cross/asterisk of multiple runways, it is even more helpful to depict at least your base turn and a 300'/1mile or so final aimpoint.

Keep the approach lighting and PAPIs/VASI availability in mind. At times better lights is more important than more into-the-wind runway alignment.

Circling mins are usually about 600' AFE and require about 2NM visibility. As others have said, you may want to debrief this with a confidant to help with an accurate ASRS submittal, if needed for flying the ILS and landing straight in rather than circle below curcling MDA or going missed. Maybe refly later in better wx with a CFI or qualified bro to build more confidence, more tricks and get some pointers and critique.

I assume you had plenty of fuel, suitable alternates, wx and notams.

It makes no sense, in some ways that approach would give you ILS circle as the only approach, they are clearing you for the missed approach for the ILS inherent with that clearance, they had to give you that missed's airspace clearance, unless climbout instructions were different and away from the airspace of the published missed for the ILS. It may not actually merit an ASRS in part 91. No one waiting to depart the airport IFR at the time of your landing? No tower, if there was, you could have asked to land straight in ILS 9. You could have circled the whole field if you had circling MDA ceiling and vis for your category until you hit your fuel min reserves.

Well, first of all (I mean now): file an ASRS report to protect yourself. You violated your clearance.
As others have said, circle to land procedures in the dark and poor visibility are fairly high risk. Some airlines won?t fly them.
Many pilots hardly ever practice them. They are non-precision approaches, flown to a MDA, not a DA.
Don?t ever even think about circling at 200? agl. There is no guarantee of terrain clearance at that altitude.

lr172 said:

With all of the turbulence, I imagine it would be hard to hold my altitude if all of my attention is out the window trying to keep the field in sight.

Larry

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This is exactly why these approaches are a handful. You canNOT devote all your attention out the window. To do so is an invitation to an unusual attitude, or a slow loss of altitude until you hit a hill, or a slow drift up back into the clouds. Instead you must maintain aircraft control by reference to instruments, while navigating visually with quick glances out the window.

moosepileit said:

. As others have said, you may want to debrief this with a confidant to help with an accurate ASRS submittal, if needed for flying the ILS and landing straight in rather than circle below curcling MDA or going missed.

I assume you had plenty of fuel, suitable alternates, wx and notams.

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THanks for the input. The approach was all legal. I had the lights in sight before DA (it was an ILS with 200 DA'). Prior to landing I had already received a clearance from the tower to land on runway 9. I was concerned about circling and asked if I could land straight it. They cleared me to land on any runway. I would have gone missed if they didn't.

I had well over half fuel (2+ hours) and there were airports within 100 miles with much better conditions.

Larry

BobTurner said:

Well, first of all (I mean now): file an ASRS report to protect yourself. You violated your clearance.
As others have said, circle to land procedures in the dark and poor visibility are fairly high risk. Some airlines won’t fly them.
Many pilots hardly ever practice them. They are non-precision approaches, flown to a MDA, not a DA.
Don’t ever even think about circling at 200’ agl. There is no guarantee of terrain clearance at that altitude.

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Yes, very glad my gut told me not to circle. It all happened very fast. Appr tells me ils 9 with circle to 27 and that was one mile from intercepting the localizer. Didn't really have time to think about circling minimums and their requirements. Was also getting kicked around a lot and working very hard to keep the needles aligned. Fortunately my gut screamed out that it was simply a bad idea and I went for the straight in. If that didn't feel right, I would have gone missed and asked to hold somewhere to think through it.

As above, the approach was all legal. I didn't bust any of the procedure, as I had a clearance to land on 9 and I had the lights before DA (it was an ILS with 200' DA).

Larry

BobTurner said:

This is exactly why these approaches are a handful. You canNOT devote all your attention out the window. To do so is an invitation to an unusual attitude, or a slow loss of altitude until you hit a hill, or a slow drift up back into the clouds. Instead you must maintain aircraft control by reference to instruments, while navigating visually with quick glances out the window.

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I think I knew that in the back of my mind and why I wouldn't let myself do the circle. I have a new found respect for why you guys say they are so risky. Especially when you factor in the stress of the busy airspace and rapid fire changes from ATC. I knew that I would struggle to keep the runway in visual contact and still be able to control the plane. I needed the instrument references to stay level. I was surprised how difficult it was to get a good visual lock on the runway after getting a clear visual on the approach lights. It was raining pretty good at the time I landed.

Another learning was that I had very little time to prepare for this. I barely got the wx, let alone much time to process. I went straight from the missed to a new approach in a couple of minutes. A key learning here for me was that I should have asked ATC to send me in another direction or hold somewhere so that I could research and think. I had plenty of fuel and wasn't in a real hurry to get on the ground.

In the end, this was a tremendous learning experience for a young IFR pilot with limited actual time. You simply can't simulate this with a hood and safety pilot. I did not appreciate the difficulties I would encounter with low visibility. It has given me a lot to think about and learn from for future decision making.

Larry

BobTurner said:

This is exactly why these approaches are a handful. You canNOT devote all your attention out the window. To do so is an invitation to an unusual attitude, or a slow loss of altitude until you hit a hill, or a slow drift up back into the clouds. Instead you must maintain aircraft control by reference to instruments, while navigating visually with quick glances out the window.

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This is very good advice and received load and clear! You simply don't get this kind of stuff in classic training scenarios. It seems to me you must seek it out from the "old salts" that have been there and I appreciate it.

A nice summary after Googling for a good one for you:

http://thinkaviation.net/circling-approaches/

A few things to think about:
Make sure you get the straight-in clearance prior to descending below the circling minimums. If you cannot see the ground (day time) as you approach circling minimums, ask the tower, if there is one, for a weather update. It’s not uncommon for the wx at the airport, and at a mile and a half away, to be different.
If you’re on the GS at DA on a typical ILS, the runway is a bit over 1/2 mile away - a lot more than 1000’. (1000’ is way below cat I minimums). Since typical cat I minimums are 1/2 mile visibility, seeing the runway at DA and on-GS is an easy ‘measuring stick’ for flight visibility.

Edit added: you’re right, there’s no way vfr plus hood can prepare you for low visibility (around 1/2 mi) operation.

moosepileit said:

A nice summary after Googling for a good one for you:

http://thinkaviation.net/circling-approaches/

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Thanks for this link, it was a good read. Also, thanks for your input and safety guidelines. Very good learning material.

Larry

BobTurner said:

A few things to think about:
Make sure you get the straight-in clearance prior to descending below the circling minimums. If you cannot see the ground (day time) as you approach circling minimums, ask the tower, if there is one, for a weather update. It?s not uncommon for the wx at the airport, and at a mile and a half away, to be different.
If you?re on the GS at DA on a typical ILS, the runway is a bit over 1/2 mile away - a lot more than 1000?. (1000? is way below cat I minimums). Since typical cat I minimums are 1/2 mile visibility, seeing the runway at DA and on-GS is an easy ?measuring stick? for flight visibility.

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Thanks Bob. Good food for thought. At what AGL on the GS would I be 1 mile away from the threshold?

Larry

lr172 said:

Thanks Bob. Good food for thought. At what AGL on the GS would I be 1 mile away from the threshold?

Larry

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About 330? agl (strictly speaking, above TZE, not agl) you?re 1 mile from the threshold. (You have to remember that the GS hits the runway 1000? down from the threshold, so the answer is not just double 200?))

If your clearance/intention was to circle you should not descend below the circling minima unless you are visual at the circling minima. In Australia to circle you must remain in the circling area and in sight of the runway environment. By day you must maintain 300 feet above any obstacle on the flightpath (which implies you have looked at the terminal chart). By night, you must not descend below the circling minima until you are established to fly a normal circuit for the aircraft. Its probably a bit different in the US, but if you descend below the circling minima you forego the protection of the approach procedure and you are now responsible for terrain clearance. All of that means a circling approach below the circling minima is not something you should be doing unless well briefed. IMO you made the correct decision not to circle. You should have requested an amended clearance to land straight ahead if you could accept that runway or gone missed.

As others have said you need to have a good plan about what you are going to do under the IFR. You were probably given a clearance to circle because ATC believed the downwind component was excessive for your aircraft. I would also question the logic of continuing to fly approaches in a single engine for practice when you know the weather is below the minima, but that is personal preference.

control said:

In a way I am impressed and jealous of how you just seem to go up flying and deciding your destinations in the air.

For me it would be unthinkable to fly IFR to a destination that I have not planned for, not checked NOTMAM for and so on.... I always have a destination and an alternative, having to go somewhere else would almost automatically be considered an emergency in my mind

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I had a plan. Depart x, 6 approaches at y and then final approach and land at z. forecast was 800' and 6 miles. During the practice approaches, I noticed that the radar intensity at my landing airport was now medium (yellow with some red) and each time I headed in that direction, the turbulence got worse. I decided to land at a different airport with lighter precip and wait for the heavier stuff to pass. As I mentioned, I was growing tired of the bumps and thought it would be better to get on the ground somewhere and rest for a bit before tackling rougher stuff.

I think this type of practice is important, as you need to flexible. Plans are great, but things change and you need to be comfortable adapting. You don't want to get locked into a decision for the wrong reasons. The curve balls are tough. When they gave me the ILS with circling clearance, I was thinking ILS minimums, not circling minimums. It all happened so fast that I didn't really have time to think about what that meant. This was a big learning for me. As I think back, I have been trying to process what I should have done differently. In the end, I needed more time to process all that was happening so I could develop a plan of attack and properly brief the approach. Also, I haven't done a circling approach since my check ride and it is not a part of my routine. After this event, I assure you it won't trip me up again. I guess that is the point of practice and experience. Until we experience things, they are locked in a different part of your brain. I learned all of this stuff in training, but because it wasn't really a part of my experience set, it wasn't easily drawn upon.

Larry

One more suggestion, then I?ll get off my soapbox. Don?t hesitate to use ATC. If they don?t offer it, ask the tower for the current weather as soon as approach hands you off. Ask again as you approach the circling minimum altitude (of course, you do need to remember that you?re circling!). At that point, you need to decide if you?re going to continue at that altitude on the circle to land; accept the tailwind and ask for straight in clearance; in either case, be prepared to miss. (Missing once you?ve started to circle is a bit tricky, think ahead).

Don?t feel too bad; my last instrument student - who was very good - also forgot we were cleared for a circling approach, and headed straight for the near (wrong) end of the runway. It?s a common error. Hopefully one you?ll never repeat.

Lo vis & circles

Good comments by everyone. I will add that even if you fly for 1000?s of hours the time spent in the low visibility murk between breaking out on the approach and landing is short. No one gets to accumulate significant time in this environment. I probably have less than 2 hrs total after 30 years of flying for a living. You do learn that even when you are visual and can ?see? the reduced visual cues make aircraft control more difficult. Circles are challenging in a easy stable airplane and probably a real handful in a 6 on a bumpy day. It?s 95% instrument flying with occasional quick (head moving & possible disorienting) peeks out the side until on short final. If visual contact is lost during the circle you must stay within the protected airspace, this usually means a climbing turn toward the airport. If this happens on the base leg you would make a climbing 270 deg turn over the field to join the missed approach segment. Good trip planning means knowing what?s going on at the intended destination and alternate plus any other airports in the vicinity that might work if choices 1 & 2 become unavailable. You?ll know the wind direction and which approaches are probably in use. Check all notams. It?s absolutely fine to call any tower within radio range and ask them what the weather is on the field and what approaches are in use. Practice with a safety pilot is always good.

Don Broussard
RV9 Rebuild in Progress
57 Pacer

BobTurner said:

Well, first of all (I mean now): file an ASRS report to protect yourself. You violated your clearance.
As others have said, circle to land procedures in the dark and poor visibility are fairly high risk. Some airlines won?t fly them.
Many pilots hardly ever practice them. They are non-precision approaches, flown to a MDA, not a DA.
Don?t ever even think about circling at 200? agl. There is no guarantee of terrain clearance at that altitude.

Click to expand...

The clock for filing for ASRS immunity doesn?t start until you know you violated a regulation.

BobTurner said:

One more suggestion, then I?ll get off my soapbox. Don?t hesitate to use ATC. If they don?t offer it, ask the tower for the current weather as soon as approach hands you off. Ask again as you approach the circling minimum altitude (of course, you do need to remember that you?re circling!). At that point, you need to decide if you?re going to continue at that altitude on the circle to land; accept the tailwind and ask for straight in clearance; in either case, be prepared to miss. (Missing once you?ve started to circle is a bit tricky, think ahead).

Don?t feel too bad; my last instrument student - who was very good - also forgot we were cleared for a circling approach, and headed straight for the near (wrong) end of the runway. It?s a common error. Hopefully one you?ll never repeat.

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I don't feel too bad; I assumed I was not the first to make a similar mistake . Whenever things don't go the way they should or left me feeling somewhat uncomfortable, I tend to take a bit of time re-thinking what I did and what I could have done differently with the benefit of hindsight.

I feel pretty confident I won't repeat this error. However, I will add that the biggest deterrent from collecting all of the data and making sound judgement calls is having the mental cycles to do so. I have to say that I was pretty saturated just keeping the needles aligned through the turbulence and covering the basics like plate review, dealing with ATC vectors/altitudes, etc. A major takeaway is that I need way more practice in tough conditions than I am getting. Gaining more "muscle memory" during difficult approaches will allow me to devote more cycles. Just like early in the IFR training, it took almost all my cycles with the basics. As I gained more experience, things became more natural and it became easier to mult-task. I just need to take that to the next level.

Bob, thank you so much for commenting and sharing your wisdom. Same for everyone else. It is great to talk about these things with others and gain their insights; hopefully making me a better and safer pilot.

Larry

lr172 said:

I don't feel too bad; I assumed I was not the first to make a similar mistake . Whenever things don't go the way they should or left me feeling somewhat uncomfortable, I tend to take a bit of time re-thinking what I did and what I could have done differently with the benefit of hindsight.

I feel pretty confident I won't repeat this error. However, I will add that the biggest deterrent from collecting all of the data and making sound judgement calls is having the mental cycles to do so. I have to say that I was pretty saturated just keeping the needles aligned through the turbulence and covering the basics like plate review, dealing with ATC vectors/altitudes, etc. A major takeaway is that I need way more practice in tough conditions than I am getting. Gaining more "muscle memory" during difficult approaches will allow me to devote more cycles. Just like early in the IFR training, it took almost all my cycles with the basics. As I gained more experience, things became more natural and it became easier to mult-task. I just need to take that to the next level.

Bob, thank you so much for commenting and sharing your wisdom. Same for everyone else. It is great to talk about these things with others and gain their insights; hopefully making me a better and safer pilot.

Larry

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The phrase "need vectors for time" and use of an autopilot is your friend at times like this...

When I completed my CFII check ride a few years ago my friend and designated examiner had a couple of parting words of advice. He told me if one of my students crashed while 'circling to land' from an approach, he was personally going to take it out on me! He stressed that this is probably the most dangerous of all situations. I promised I would only do such a thing if the field is legally VFR. Breaking out at 1,000' and circling is a whole different thing than breaking out at circling minimums. I set this as my personal mins for this type of approach.