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Call from the local FSDO, what would you do?

N941WR

N941WR

Legacy Member
A friend texted me on Monday, a representative from the local FSDO left him a message along the lines of, "This is John Doe from the FAA's Flight Standards District Office in XXXXX. Our records indicate you are the registered owner of N1234. Please call me at (999) 999-9999."

He doesn't not recall doing anything even remotely questionable, so he is rather nervous about returning the guy's call. What he did was to call AOPA who gave him a list of aviation attorneys, retained one, and had the attorney return the call.

I'm curious how the rest of you would have handled this situation.
 
I'd have called the guy back and asked what he wanted. Why lawyer up before they even tell you what they want? There's plenty of time for that later if you need to.
 
So what did the attorney tell him after the call?

If he did nothing remotely wrong, why would he feel he needed an attorney?
 
It has been my experience that nothing good ever comes from a call like that. Especially when they don't even hint at the subject. I'd probably not return the call... Or email, or answer the door if they came knocking. But I am a product of life's experience.
 
Toobuilder said:
It has been my experience that nothing good ever comes from a call like that. Especially when they don't even hint at the subject. I'd probably not return the call... Or email, or answer the door if they came knocking. But I am a product of life's experience.
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That would be exactly why he lawyered up. You have to remember you are talking to a Federal Official and any answer you give can be used against you, even one given in error. Having the a lawyer talk to the guy removes the emotion from the exchange. It might well be nothing and they might be calling to ask a favor (I've had those calls before), you just never know.
 
AndyRV7 said:
So what did the attorney tell him after the call?

If he did nothing remotely wrong, why would he feel he needed an attorney?
Click to expand...

There was a local airport that was in a battle with the neighbors. It does not help that many of the neighbors were "Hollywood elite" and influencial. As it turned out, many of these neighbors were collecting N numbers and aircraft descriptions from local airports or while just innocently dropping in. These neighbors then filed all sorts of fabricated reports of illegal activity - buzzing, after curfiew, aerobatics, etc - and caused a bunch of trouble for many completely innocent pilots.

Remember, with the FAA you are guilty until you can prove yourself innocent.
 
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Breath deep

AndyRV7 said:
So what did the attorney tell him after the call?

If he [ I ] did nothing remotely wrong, why would he feel he needed an attorney?
Click to expand...

If one ever has to say that, especially aloud, they should most likely seek expert legal representation!

Not every phone call is doom and gloom. That said, the ASIs have to investigate complaints. My bet is a neighbor called about noise, and this will be a short phone call indicating such. That said, admit nothing deny everything and make counter accusations! (kidding..be nice but offer nothing)

I would call back, and tread carefully. Though it's worth mentioning he is under no obligation to do so.
 
It happened to me...

Toobuilder said:
It has been my experience that nothing good ever comes from a call like that. Especially when they don't even hint at the subject. I'd probably not return the call... Or email, or answer the door if they came knocking. But I am a product of life's experience.
Click to expand...
I called back. They had called to tell me that they would be able to do my airworthiness inspection after all; a few weeks prior they had (gently) refused and told me to find a DAR.
 
My bet is they are investigating someone else (eg an A&P or a shop) and want to corroborate records that indicate his plane was worked on by a said individual or shop on such and such dates for such and such reasons.
 
I responded

I got just such a call and I did call back. I knew what the issue was as I had previously been asked to call ABQ Center about the complaint and was confident that I had not violated any FARs. The fellow at the FSDO, who I happened to know slightly, told me about the complaint he had received and assured me I hadn't done anything wrong. He said he needed to put a note in the file that he had contacted me. He also remarked that the people I had annoyed must be quite powerful.

The call was very pleasant and the two of us ended up chatting about the wonders of being able to fly freely about looking at amazing things.
 
Yep, I guess I just don't feel guilty. I understand the caution but even if I had done something wrong that I didn't recall, I wouldn't feel uncomfortable about the call. You could always chose to not answer or make any statements I guess.

It sounded like the OP said the call had already been made. Can we have the result?
 
"The FAA called me today to tell me how awesome of a pilot I am and how much they appreciate me flying and how I maintain my airplane."

...said no pilot ever.
 
I would have made the call. If the call turned bad you can easily end the call and state that your lawyer will be in touch.
 
n5lp said:
I got just such a call and I did call back. I knew what the issue was as I had previously been asked to call ABQ Center about the complaint and was confident that I had not violated any FARs. The fellow at the FSDO, who I happened to know slightly, told me about the complaint he had received and assured me I hadn't done anything wrong. He said he needed to put a note in the file that he had contacted me. He also remarked that the people I had annoyed must be quite powerful.

The call was very pleasant and the two of us ended up chatting about the wonders of being able to fly freely about looking at amazing things.
Click to expand...

I received a letter stating to please give them a call. They reported they had transponder tracking data showing that I violated San Diego Class B airspace near Miramar. I am intimately familiar with the local area Class B and know all the ground tracks and altitudes to avoid such. I returned the call.

They were very cordial. When I told them my aircraft did not have an electrical system that ended the inquiry.

Regarding the OP: I'm not sure I would lawyer up for the initial call. Just find out what they want, and if the charges are threatening, respectfully advise them you will have your agent contact them.

Regards,
 
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I spoke to a pilot at my field recently who said he/she was landing at an airport near San Francisco. After entering the Class D airspace the tower directed him/her to call the tower. The tower advised the pilot he/she busted a POTUS TFR.

What is the likely outcome of that I wonder?

Flight following.

As a relatively new pilot the things I learned or reinforced were basic but important:

FAR 91.103
Preflight action

Each pilot in command shall, before beginning a flight, become familiar with ALL available information concerning that flight.
 
I think Ronald Reagan said that the 11 most frightening words in the English language, "I'm from the government and I am here to help you".

They are not calling to tell you that your plane is cute.

If FSDO wants to talk, let them write a letter. Talking can get you in all kinds of trouble even if you don't think you have done anything wrong.
 
...

Far North Texan said:
They are not calling to tell you that your plane is cute.

If FSDO wants to talk, let them write a letter. Talking can get you in all kinds of trouble even if you don't think you have done anything wrong.
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This is rather extreme in my opinion. This can turn a mole hill into a mountain. If a pilot is unable of returning a phone call to find out what an adminstrator wants without incriminating his or herself one would have to wonder. I'm not saying jump to return the call...by all means prepare before hand and when in doubt, shut up.

If you prefer to receive official notification of an investigation or request for information because you want to avoid "the man"...have at it. To each their own.
 
Back in the 80s while working on my PPL in so cal, I busted an airspace, got told to call a phone number, basically just listened and let them do their job, and in a few minutes it was all over, basically, it went like, did you do this? Um..don't know, well, don't do it again, .....OK, that was that.
 
I wouldn't make the call.
I had a friend who had made that call after a school teacher reported a low flying aircraft above the school on the anniversary of 911.
He made the call and lost his flying privileges for 6 months. He had no way to defend himself. His attorney said, in the future. "Don't make the call"
He didn't realize there was a school close to the traffic pattern. He paid the price for it. It was unintentional.

Prior to that incident, I had returned a call at the towers request. I was accused of busting a class D airspace enroute. I denied it as I was showing & explaining to my passenger the airspace rules while I flew outside it. They just told me to get training on the local airspace. Never again will I make the call.
 
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I suppose if you're in air and are instructed to advise when ready to copy a phone number, you need to write it down, read it back and call it. That's all on tape so it's hard to pull the "huh, wah" card.

If you get a call at home there's no tape. I'd probably wait for the letter.

They're good at sending letters.

In fact, even when you call them, you sometimes get a letter saying nothing more than that you called.
 
We had a situation at our local airport about a dozen years ago where an aggressive individual with an overbearing personality reported an "offense" to the FSDO because he wanted to sic the FAA on our tails. I listened to my answering machine pick up a call from an FAA inspector who wanted me to return the call. I decided I would wait on a letter if this was indeed a matter that needed investigation because I didn't want to get into a discussion about a deviant's personal agenda. I assumed a letter would be very specific about what needed to be officially investigated and this would allow me time to decide how to respond.

I never got another call or a letter. I suspect the inspector checked the boxes on his report and closed the case.
 
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pierre smith said:
How do you know that it was, in fact, the FAA? Just because some guy over the phone says he is?

Best,
Click to expand...

This was my first thought as well. There are well documented scams in which a caller uses publicly available information to impersonate a government official in order to extort money or information from the target. I myself have been the target of such attempted scams when I received several voice mails claiming to be from the IRS and speaking in cryptic and scary tones about an "investigation."


First thing you always do is check the phone number online to see who it belongs to and if it has been implicated in scams. If you actually answer the call, don't speak to the caller, other than to request that that give you a number to call them back, then check out *that* number.
 
I have gotten two calls in the past year

Yes I have gotten two calls in the past year.

One was a returned call from the FAA about a formal letter I received about possibly busting the Class D airspace in SO CAL. I was glad I called and the FSDO inspector was great to work with. In fact I spoke with him 3 times total and it was a good experience.

The second phone call came from the Scottsdale FSDO because they received a report from the Tucson airport because they rolled the fire trucks when I returned to land just after takeoff with an unknown noise coming from my airplane after takeoff (posted the story a few months back). No big deal just had to correct some of their facts about the incident.

I know first hand the fear of speaking with the FAA. Some suggested getting a lawyer before calling after receiving a letter. However in my case working directly with the FSDO was the right answer.

Unless you really did something intentionally wrong I would work directly with the FAA.
 
Since we are telling war stories, I have another. I botched a landing early in my tailwheel career and went off the runway in a ground loop at my personal, private strip. The airplane was damaged, but no where near the threshold for a "required" report. I dragged the airplane back to the hangar and licked my wounds. Got a call the next day from the FSDO about an "airplane crash". Apparently, one of my neighbors called it in and had to "spice up" the story a bit to gain the interest of the Office. I was reported as "buzzing" homes, landed long and "flipped over" out in the desert.

Since I was only doing touch and goes at my residential airpark (not buzzing homes), and the airplane was not damaged enough to create a reporting event, I made the mistake of calling back. Even after my explanation of the event, adding the fact that me and my neighbor dont really get along, the Fed wanted to come out and "inspect" my airplane "just to be sure". In other words, my word was not good enough. And since I had already called back (removing plausible deniability), and was now on record as admitting "something"... I agreed to the inspection. As much as I didn't want a Fed on my property, it seemed the only way to clear my record. So we set the time, he did the inspection, and agreed, "yep, not a reportable incident".

So the funny thing is, even after I "proved" my innocence, this report lived on in some file cabinet. And yes, it came back to haunt me later.

So that is what life has taught me about talking to the Feds. Never again, if I have a choice.
 
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pierre smith said:
How do you know that it was, in fact, the FAA? Just because some guy over the phone says he is?

Best,
Click to expand...

The Attorney's call to the FSDO pretty much answered that question.

The inquiry was about some low flying. He has a Cub with big numbers under the wings.
 
A few years ago I got a call from the FAA and I called back. Basically he wanted to know if I was missing a panel with an antenna attached to it. I was using flight following on the day in question. I was not the only plane in the area but I was the only one on flight following. He told me where I took off from, went to, what speed and what time I was over the area in question. He nailed all that information. His story was part of a plane with antenna attached landed in someone's yard. I was in the area, they had my contact information so they called. He had already searched my N number and found a picture of my plane. He did not think the part was from my plane because my plane was to nice (helped the ego there). I told him I was sure I was not missing any parts but would go check. I checked the next day called him back told him nothing missing he said thanks and that was that. Yea it was an odd feeling getting that call and I probably took a chance calling back my self but I saved lawyer fees and I really believe that not everyone at the FAA is out to get ya. It worked out.
 
FAA

pierre smith said:
How do you know that it was, in fact, the FAA? Just because some guy over the phone says he is?

Best,
Click to expand...

If you google XYZ FSDO office you will find a list of all Aviaition
Safety Inspectors in that office, as well as the name of the office manager. The inspectors will be identified regarding their specialty, operations, maintenance, avionics, etc.
So if you are concerned about an imposter, ask to call back, look up the info and check it out. You will very likely find the name and direct phone number of the person who called.
 
FAA Files

Regarding letters in FAA Files, the FAA Standard is two years at which time all records pertaining to the event are supposed to be destroyed.

A policy change from the administrator has just been issued stating education NOT enforcement action, when dealing with most violations. POTUS TFR is still likely to be an exception.
 
When the Feds call....

In my senior year of college I was taking a Physics lab that my father was teaching. One afternoon the phone rings at the lab and my dad answers it, he turns around and says, "Dan, it's the F.B.I. And they want to talk to you."
I had forgotten that a couple of months previously I had written the Washington office for some info I needed for an anthropology paper I had to write. It took that long to get bucked down to the SoCal office where it was answered.
I must admit that instantly and uncontrollably my previous actions got a quick mental review! :D
 
RV7A Flyer said:
http://www.aopa.org/Pilot-Resources/PIC-archive/FAA-Enforcement/FAA-Enforcement#responding
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Holy smokes - I just read these reports. I did not realize that you are under no legal or moral obligation to return a call or answer a letter from the FAA except under very specific conditions. The simple act of responding WILL be used against you. Just because they ask you to surrender your certificate - they cannot take if from you except in very specific situations. Keep it in your pocket!

These articles were written before the Pilots Bill of Rights, but I will use extreme caution before responding to anything from the FAA.
 
JDanno said:
.. One afternoon the phone rings at the lab and my dad answers it, he turns around and says, "Dan, it's the F.B.I. And they want to talk to you."
Click to expand...

I feel your pain ;) One day two guys in dark suits stroll into the store, and show me badges from the IRS Criminal Investigation Division.

Turned out to be a spot audit for compliance with the then-new $10,000 cash reporting rule ( https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f8300.pdf ). Not a problem, but still...for a few moments you do tend to review your recent history.

Last time I heard a controller tell somebody to call the tower upon landing, she also told him what he had done (flown through a VIP TFR). That seems like a violation where the pilot is thoroughly busted, but reading the linked AOPA document raises the question of actually identifying him as the PIC. If he had filed a flight plan, Block 14 hangs him, but otherwise, it seems the FAA would need a witness when he lands, or a pilot admission via that phone call.

I'm not suggesting that pilots should hide, but I am curious; how would the FAA identify the typical VFR PIC?
 
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roadrunner20 said:
I wouldn't make the call.
I had a friend who had made that call after a school teacher reported a low flying aircraft above the school on the anniversary of 911.
He made the call and lost his flying privileges for 6 months. He had no way to defend himself. His attorney said, in the future. "Don't make the call"
He didn't realize there was a school close to the traffic pattern. He paid the price for it. It was unintentional.

Prior to that incident, I had returned a call at the towers request. I was accused of busting a class D airspace enroute. I denied it as I was showing & explaining to my passenger the airspace rules while I flew outside it. They just told me to get training on the local airspace. Never again will I make the call.
Click to expand...

I rather lose the six months suspension from flying than be like a fugitive. If I did something wrong, I like to know about it so I can learn from it and if it is sever enough, than need to be held accountable. I did get a call-the-tower request once, which I nervously did so but it was very cordial, informative for me and non-consequential. If I ever get a request for call-the-xxx, I will without seeking legal representative unless I know of the law that I had broken and that a lawyer was needed to guide me thru the process.
 
I've never understood how suspending a license will make somebody a safer pilot. We have hard data that shows that people should fly MORE often to be safer pilots, and then we tell somebody he can't fly for 6 months? I understand the need for negative reinforcement and incentives, etc, but how about mandatory training courses, etc? At least on the first offense....

Chris
 
YellowJacket RV9 said:
I've never understood how suspending a license will make somebody a safer pilot. We have hard data that shows that people should fly MORE often to be safer pilots, and then we tell somebody he can't fly for 6 months? I understand the need for negative reinforcement and incentives, etc, but how about mandatory training courses, etc? At least on the first offense....

Chris
Click to expand...

Because punishing someone makes it look like you're "doing something" or being "tough on crime". This "gotta punish harshly for everything" mentality isn't limited to the FAA, either. But I'll stop there.
 
jrs14855 said:
If you google XYZ FSDO office you will find a list of all Aviaition
Safety Inspectors in that office, as well as the name of the office manager. The inspectors will be identified regarding their specialty, operations, maintenance, avionics, etc.
So if you are concerned about an imposter, ask to call back, look up the info and check it out. You will very likely find the name and direct phone number of the person who called.
Click to expand...

This does not appear to be the case, at least at the Reno FSDO. I just looked through their entire website. There is a list of DAR's DER's, DPE's. I found one PDF document that had a list of names of "points of contact" for various topics, none of which had any contact info, and it was dated 2012.
 
FSDO

scsmith said:
This does not appear to be the case, at least at the Reno FSDO. I just looked through their entire website. There is a list of DAR's DER's, DPE's. I found one PDF document that had a list of names of "points of contact" for various topics, none of which had any contact info, and it was dated 2012.
Click to expand...

Interesting. I did this just a couple of weeks ago fro two other FSDO's by clicking on contact office, which then displayed employee directory at bottom of page. Employee directory does not display for Reno.
 
FSDO

I also tried two others by searching XYZ flight standards district office employee directory. Worked for both.
 
Voice Exemplars

DanH said:
I feel your pain ;)I'm not suggesting that pilots should hide, but I am curious; how would the FAA identify the typical VFR PIC?
Click to expand...

Here is an example of a legally excepted way of identifying someone who's voice may have been received and recorded:

Voice Exemplar - Legal Definition

"A sample of one?s voice for the purpose of comparing to the actual person?s voice, or a recording of same, used for identification."

Voice Exemplars ? Self-Incrimination

"Compelling a person to give a voice exemplar violates no privilege protected by the Fifth Amendment. The exemplar is used for identification purposes, and is not testimonial or communicative in nature. See United States v. Dionisio, supra."
 
DanH said:
I feel your pain ;) One day two guys in dark suits stroll into the store, and show me badges from the IRS Criminal Investigation Division.

Turned out to be a spot audit for compliance with the then-new $10,000 cash reporting rule ( https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f8300.pdf ). Not a problem, but still...for a few moments you do tend to review your recent history.

Last time I heard a controller tell somebody to call the tower upon landing, she also told him what he had done (flown through a VIP TFR). That seems like a violation where the pilot is thoroughly busted, but reading the linked AOPA document raises the question of actually identifying him as the PIC. If he had filed a flight plan, Block 14 hangs him, but otherwise, it seems the FAA would need a witness when he lands, or a pilot admission via that phone call.

I'm not suggesting that pilots should hide, but I am curious; how would the FAA identify the typical VFR PIC?
Click to expand...

I have a friend who worked at the FAA as an investigator. He said the hardest part is to place the pilot in the airplane. And that often, that problem is solved by the pilot's own admission. As he told me this story, I recalled the time I got a "call this number when you land" message. I called the number, and said "It's me, and I was the PIC of N123, and I was asked to call..." Without knowing it I had just made their case for them.

If you haven't read Practical Aviation Law, you should. It used to be that controllers could decide to report incidents and calling the tower and pleading your case could have worked in your favor. That isn't the case anymore, and reporting is mandatory, and someone other than the controller decides if it warrants an investigation.

In future dealings with the FAA, I use a lesson I learned when I went through the Navy's Survival, Evasion, Resistance and Escape School (a school where we learned how to be a POW) -- "Assume everything they do is a trick or a technique"

http://www.amazon.com/Practical-Aviation-Law-Scott-Hamilton/dp/1560277637
 
A Friend of a friend

Once a friend said one of his buddies got a call from the FAA went something like this.

Hi this is ........ from the FAA. We are investigating a complaint from someone buzzing a house with your airplane and the registration shows its your airplane.

Owner says. It couldn't have been. I didn't do that.

FAA says. It has to be. They called in your N number.

Owner still denies it.

FAA guy suggestingly asks, is it possible that someone could have jumped in your plane at the airport without you knowing it?

Guy thinks a little.....UH.....yeh! I bet that's what happened.

FAA says. OK then. Thanks. Have a good day.
 
FAA

Having been a pilot for a long, long time I have a very different outlook on dealing with the FAA. I built my first airplane in an EAA Chapter workshop. The folks from the FAA MIDO office were regular visitors. This evolved into getting to know some FSDO people. One of the most memorable was a neighbor who was building an EAB airplane. I visited him several times in his basement workshop. Many years later I would learn that he was the manager of the FSDO Office.
My involvement in part 135 flying, then later competition aerobatics and airshows resulted in an unusual amount of interaction with the FAA. With a couple of rare exceptions it has always been positive. On one of the few occasions where it was not the FAA took their best shot at me and lost. I did it all on my own, no attorneys involved.
 
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