What's new
Van's Air Force

Don't miss anything! Register now for full access to the definitive RV support community.

Strange decision: RV vs. sonex

samiamPA

Member
Hello all,

I am new to flying this year, but have had a lifelong desire to fly and build. After reading for endless hours on the internet, I find myself stuck in the decision about which plane to build (I'm hoping to get started later this year). I had originally looked at the RV-7, and loved the look/performance profile, but felt intimidated by how much work they are, and feared that I would never finish a job that dragged on for 5+ years. The skills and tools required also seemed to be more advanced for a first time builder. So I had resigned myself to building a sonex - I like these little aircraft, and they seemed to be getting done in a reasonable 700-800 hours, especially if ordered with the upgrade options.

But the devil's advocate in me says that if I'm going to build an airplane, I might as well spend my endless hours building the one that I really want. This has led me to look at the newer RV-14. They say it will take less time than the 7 given how advanced the kit is, and it has me reconsidering.

I do like the sonex, and could probably deal with the small size (neither me nor my wife are big people). But for cross country, which is something I'd like to do a good amount of, I'm concerned at the small size and the meager fuel capacity.

I know it seems like a crazy comparison to be deciding between the "cadillac" 14 and the "yaris" sonex, but that is sort of where I am at right now. Also, I'd need to sit in the cockpit of both and/or get a ride, but was wondering if anyone else had the same dilemma.

Thoughts much appreciated!
 
Your best guidance can be found in your own words.

the devil's advocate in me says that if I'm going to build an airplane, I might as well spend my endless hours building the one that I really want.
 
Just FYI...there will also be several RV aircraft there.


Saturday, May 11, 2013
10AM - 5PM

Fourth Annual NC Sonex Spring Fly-in. On Saturday May 11, 2013, Siler City Municipal Airport (5W8)
Event Tag(s): *Fly-in *Homebuilts *Seminar *Sport Pilot-LSA
Siler City Municipal Airport (5W8, Siler City, NC, USA
Third Annual NC Sonex Spring Fly-in. On Saturday May 11, 2013, Siler City Municipal Airport (5W8).
Please register for this free event to help us plan for food and parking

http://www.americansonexassociation.org/events/index.html

Contact: Peter Van Schalkwyk
Phone: 9199956010, Send an Email
 
Posting that question here is a bit like asking Henry Ford which car shall I buy.

I personally I think that it's a no brainer. You stated your mission is cross country with you wife. The additional comfort and payload should make the RV-14 a great choice.
 
I attended one of the weekend Sonex builder workshops with my son. (He got married, quit flying and sold his project, but that's another story.) My impression, and it comes from the Sonex marketing, is that the Sonex is designed for the "Reality Check," the half hour flight for breakfast or just a flight around the aerodrome.

I've sat in a Sonex, and I've made several cross countries as co-pilot in RV-6A's and RV-9A's. You state your mission as "But for cross country, which is something I'd like to do a good amount of, I'm concerned at the small size and the meager fuel capacity."

My opinion is you won't be happy doing a lot of cross-country in a Sonex. Yes, it can be done, but build what you're gonna enjoy. Just my opinion.
 
The time to fly depends a lot on your time availability, dedication, and whether you stick to the Van's script or do some mods. I'm about 2 years 5 months into my RV-8 and within a few months of being finished. That includes a number of mods and aftermarket neat stuff. Each has a "ripple down" effect which adds to build time... Then again I'm retired and work on it 3-6 hrs most days... The RV-14 should be faster due to the higher level of fabrication and better plans.

Another option if you have the resources is to pick up a used (smaller) RV to fly while you build your -14...
 
I've batted this decision around before. The sonex is primarily attractive because of the speed of build and cost to complete and operate. That being said, if you want a plane for more than just quick afternoon flights around the local area, that changes your Sonex a bit from the bare bones ones they base the prices off of. They advertise the $25k Sonex a lot, but that's with an 80hp Aerovee engine and very limited instrumentation. That's completely fine if it fits your mission of course. I've gotten a ride in an Aerovee powered Sonex though, and let me tell you, while it does "fine," with two people and full fuel for a cross country it's not exactly a performer. I don't know where you fly, but crossing any substantial mountains in the summer would pretty much be out of the question (at least for me and my margin of safety). I'm not a big guy at all, but the Sonex is pretty tight too. It's not bad for short flights, but a long cross country with someone else would be no fun for me.

In my opinion, if you needed to use the Sonex for cross country, you'd probably want the Jabiru 3300 up front and a bit more in terms of instruments. That will put you at a minimum of $40k, but more realistically probably $45k+. But for $45k you can find an older flying RV4 or RV6 that will be far more comfortable for cross country and just as much fun around the pattern! That's assuming that price is one of the factors in determining which plane to build. If it's not, pony up another $20-30k and you can build a nice RV7 or 9 (or buy a used RV6 kit!), or pump up the price a bit more and you're in RV14 territory.

I thought the Sonex was a kick to fly, and I'd take one if it was dropped off at my door, but it really didn't hold a candle to the fit and finish of an RV. The mission between the two planes is very different. Don't kid yourself - if you build a Sonex, cross countries are not going to be quite the same as they would be in the RV.
 
Just build both

The RV's are not really all that difficult to build. All they need is your dedication to get them across the finish line... I completely enjoy building & it's cheaper than professional theopy :D When my -7 is done, I could most definately see my self building a One-X or a Helo-cycle to keep in the corner of the hanger for day's when I just want to play & tinker- build.
 
Hello all,

I am new to flying this year, but have had a lifelong desire to fly and build. After reading for endless hours on the internet, I find myself stuck in the decision about which plane to build (I'm hoping to get started later this year). I had originally looked at the RV-7, and loved the look/performance profile, but felt intimidated by how much work they are, and feared that I would never finish a job that dragged on for 5+ years. The skills and tools required also seemed to be more advanced for a first time builder. So I had resigned myself to building a sonex - I like these little aircraft, and they seemed to be getting done in a reasonable 700-800 hours, especially if ordered with the upgrade options.

But the devil's advocate in me says that if I'm going to build an airplane, I might as well spend my endless hours building the one that I really want. This has led me to look at the newer RV-14. They say it will take less time than the 7 given how advanced the kit is, and it has me reconsidering.

I do like the sonex, and could probably deal with the small size (neither me nor my wife are big people). But for cross country, which is something I'd like to do a good amount of, I'm concerned at the small size and the meager fuel capacity.

I know it seems like a crazy comparison to be deciding between the "cadillac" 14 and the "yaris" sonex, but that is sort of where I am at right now. Also, I'd need to sit in the cockpit of both and/or get a ride, but was wondering if anyone else had the same dilemma.

Thoughts much appreciated!

Shorter build time.....less complexity....reasonable cost.....cross country comfort.....LSA......

Wondering why the RV-12 isn't at the top of your short list.
 
Shorter build time.....less complexity....reasonable cost.....cross country comfort.....LSA......

Wondering why the RV-12 isn't at the top of your short list.

The -12 is a really nice plane, but for me it mostly came down to performance. The cost is much higher than a sonex but with similar range on full fuel, and slower. Having never ridden in one though, it's probably not a fair comparison, as the -12 may be more comfortable. I'd still consider it... I'll need to take a ride in one though.
 
Welcome to VAF!

Hello all,

Mike, welcome to the good ship VAF.

Glad to have you aboard.

Best advice I can give is to fly in both, and then sit back and evaluate the experiences------if you can, visit a project of each and find out what you are getting into.

Lots of differences between the two planes.
 
The -12 is a really nice plane, but for me it mostly came down to performance. The cost is much higher than a sonex but with similar range on full fuel, and slower. Having never ridden in one though, it's probably not a fair comparison, as the -12 may be more comfortable. I'd still consider it... I'll need to take a ride in one though.

You are correct, it is definitely not a fair comparison, the RV-12 will fly circles around the VW-powered Sonex with two people aboard. Once you fly the -12, the Sonex will be pushed down your list. :)

Best wishes for an enjoyable journey regardless of what you choose.
 
Building an RV or other aircraft

I thought that it would only take five years to build my RV3 but it took me 11 years. There are so many adventures in life that pop up that the airplane needs to be put a side for a while.
I thought about building a Sonex so I ordered the plans and after I looked at them I sold them. Then I purchased the pre-view plans for the RV3 and then I started ordering parts. I liked Van's plans better and I also liked what others have said about the RV handling and speed. My 3 is now complete and it is very fast and I have never flown an aircraft that handles as well. Of course mine is only a single seater but now I have been tossing around the idea of building another Van's aircraft, the RV-9 is what I'm thinking because I have had many that want to ride along with me. But I don't want to sell my 3.
Oh I forgot to mention that it cost me $34,000 to build and that is with a Corvair engine. I wanted the Corvair engine to save money but it has been nothing but headaches because I had to make so much custom stuff. Some of my home made stuff has held up but some of it I had to change after it failed. This week I am changing out a 1" solid steel drive shaft part that broke that was used to turn the propeller. If I were to do it again I would just find a good used Lycoming. However it is fun making parts and experminting.
Once I had to glide back to the airport because of experimental electronics and three times I had to come back to the airport with a broken alternator belt. Trust me a certified aircraft engine is the way to go for most, unless you like the excitement of seeing how far you can quietly glide!
 
Last edited:
Another perspective... Our current "flying" airplane is what I like to think of as the 70's version of a Sonex, the Davis DA2A. Like the Sonex it was intended to be inexpensive, relatively easy to build, and to offer very good performance per unit of both build and operating cost. I love the airplane to bits.

We looked at our mission profile and realized the Davis just wasn't going to fulfill the mission needs (300nm non-stop regularly, 4+ times per year 500nm non-stop against prevailing westerly headwinds). We currently borrow a friend's Grumman Cheetah for the longer legs. The Sonex faces the same cross-country travel challenges as the Davis - just not enough airplane for real 2-up cross country travel. There's a real difference between doing cross-countries in an airplane with a max range of 300-400nm and one with a max range of 700-800nm. Being able to take folding bikes for ground transportation AND enough baggage to camp out at destination is definitely an asset.

We looked long and hard at buying a flying RV6A (wife doesn't like the taildragger RV's - and a happy wife = a happy life!) - came very close to buying one built locally. Then we really started to look at the space available in that airplane. Realizing that my wife over the years has shown no ability or desire to "pack light" or "pack small", we've ended up building a Glasair Sportsman. Not as fast or efficient as the RV, but it's a flying pickup truck so it will haul everything my wife wants to haul and will meet our non-stop range/payload requirements with ease. It also comes with the bonus of being able to be converted from trike to taildragger/skis or floats so I can also use it for some of the fishing trips I've dreamed of taking in semi-remote areas. What sealed the deal for me was an analysis of accident reports. The Glastar/Sportsman family fares pretty well when the chips are down.

No matter which aircraft you build or buy, your quest has to start with a well-defined mission profile. Falling in love with an airplane and then trying to make it fit your mission is a recipe for unending frustration.
 
As many others have said before, if you want a plane buy one if you can afford it.

If you think you'll enjoy building one then its not that hard to learn the skills to build an RV. I must say that I'm an engineer so the building process appeals to me. I have people ask me all the time at work if I have a project schedule since driving projects is part of my day job. They think they are being funny. The reality is that I don't care how long it takes me to build my plane. Its not work to me. I enjoy building it just the way I want it. Sure I want to finish it and be able to fly it, but for me the build is the fun part. The things that you figure out and learn along the way are a bonus. If you think you will enjoy the process then give it a try. If you had this idea of being able to get a cheaper plane by building it you probably looking at the problem the wrong way.

Another thing to consider is the cost of the avionics. Those costs are related to your mission. For the most part those costs don't vary with the type of plane. Those costs are a significant portion of the overal plane completion cost so buying a lower cost kit doesn't matter. Just keep that in mind.
 
I faced the exact same decision. Bought the Sonex plans, started making the angle parts to put off ordering the whole kit... and ended up starting an RV-7. Figured for a little more time and money, I'd have the airplane I really wanted.

However, I've held on to the Sonex plans and the parts I'd made so far. And every now and then, I'll bang out another part for it--I've completed all of the parts made from angle extrusion except the two main longerons. I've decided it'll be my scratch-build project for rainy days after the RV is done (or if I run out of things to build on the RV and can't yet afford the next kit). Eventually, I intend to give it to one of my future children, or trade it to my dad for his RV-6 if he winds up restricted to LSA in the future.
 
Notice the canopy shape on the Sonex? It's rounded. There's very little room to move your head around because of the curvature. It's not like the RVs.

Dave
 
Wrong airplane

While I was building my RV7A, a friend that was just about finished building a Sonex payed me a visit. He looked over my construction and my prints and said I built the wrong airplane. He later flew with me and again confirmed, that he build the wrong plane. He even bought a RV6 project but has never completed it. After finishing my plane, I have never wished that I built something different. I love my RV7A. Just saying :)
 
samiamPA,

Where are you located? Come fly the RV-12 here in Maryland. You just might be pleasantly surprised. It's a better cross country airplane than you might imagine.

Contact me at [email protected]
 
Fly both planes and then decide, I was considering these exact two models and finally decided on the 14.
 
Build the airplane you want, as long as you can afford it.

A "starter airplane project" is a way to defer having what you really want by another 5 years.
 
A close friend has a Sonex (VW) and on a warm day at sea level, it is a marginal performer. It is very tight for two and is a bit crude when compared to the RV12. IMO they are just not comparable. The Rotax is a very refined, sturdy and dependable engine with a 2000 hr. TBO. The Aero Vee? Who knows how long it will last? My feeling is that Aero Vee thinks so much of their engine, they would not dare sell it assembled. The RV12 will cost at least double, but IMO is at least twice the a/p. Remember what makes an airplane fly? Money. I would also have to say that my buddies Aero Vee has been reasonably undependable. It is not uncommon for him to have to return to the airport on a weekly breakfast run.
All of this being said, I have another friend with a Jab 3300 powered Sonex and all I can say about his, is "Hold On". It's performance is nothing short of impressive. He is a Ret. FedEx pilot and Army Fighter and Viet Nam era Huey pilot. It's safe to say when he says it's its a hot rod, you can take it to the bank, it is. He does not use it for x-country at all, only for fun flying and he say's it's a hoot!
 
Some reality checks:
The aerovee is rated 80 hp at 3400 rpm.
if you want to go WOT, you will need a 26" propeller.
If you reduce power to 3000 rpm (which is still too fast for most prop),
you are looking at ~70 hp.
 
You certainly do get what you pay for, and a 80hp Aerovee sonex could never expect to live up to the RV-12... but of course it also costs double. The Jab engine looks fun but with a 2 hr range cross country looks pretty out of the questions.

I know this has been discussed in the past, but what about the Zenith 650? It seems to be somewhere in between, in terms of cost and other features. With the new UL power engine it would cost as much as an RV-12 though, and that's where it seems people are getting real performance. Head-to-head with similar powerplants, it would cost less to build with a somewhat similar performance.

I don't know though, I'm still having trouble getting past the whole wing issue, and there just don't seem to be as many people coming forward quite so willing to rave about their aircraft as there are with the RV :) It looks like there soon may be another victim of the free $65k ride.
 
Some reality checks:
The aerovee is rated 80 hp at 3400 rpm.
if you want to go WOT, you will need a 26" propeller.
If you reduce power to 3000 rpm (which is still too fast for most prop),
you are looking at ~70 hp.

Can you reference your prop speed formula for me?
I can't find mine, but I used to fly a Moni Motorglider that had a direct drive 2-stroke and I ran up to over 6000 rpm with a 34" prop.

Also, the Jabiru 3300 gets along fine with a 68" prop at 3300 rpm.
 
Last edited:
Some reality checks:
The aerovee is rated 80 hp at 3400 rpm.
if you want to go WOT, you will need a 26" propeller.
If you reduce power to 3000 rpm (which is still too fast for most prop),
you are looking at ~70 hp.

A 55.5" prop running at 3400 rpm would match the tip speed of most props used on RV's. about 562 mph. unless my math is off, it has been in the past.

I agree with Mel on this.
 
Check out the forums on the Aero-Vee build and you'll find that putting the engine together is not as straight forward as Sonex would have you to believe. You may have to grind on the case or critical parts just to get it fit together. For a couple of thousand more if you were inclined to go a VW, then I'd look at Revmaster or a Corvair.

Then again I had a choice and I'm building a 12. The total dollars is the only down side on the 12 but its far more plane than the Sonex, IMHO.

The down side of the Sonex is a small cockpit (really tight for two) and 15 gallons of gas.

If you've checked out the Sonex you've no doubt seen Tony Spicer's DVD. All Exp companies should hire him to produce one! He's been flying RV's for awhile now and is currently a beta builder for the Panther.

Bob
 
RV verse Sonex

Hello all,

I am new to flying this year, but have had a lifelong desire to fly and build. After reading for endless hours on the internet, I find myself stuck in the decision about which plane to build (I'm hoping to get started later this year). I had originally looked at the RV-7, and loved the look/performance profile, but felt intimidated by how much work they are, and feared that I would never finish a job that dragged on for 5+ years. The skills and tools required also seemed to be more advanced for a first time builder. So I had resigned myself to building a sonex - I like these little aircraft, and they seemed to be getting done in a reasonable 700-800 hours, especially if ordered with the upgrade options.

But the devil's advocate in me says that if I'm going to build an airplane, I might as well spend my endless hours building the one that I really want. This has led me to look at the newer RV-14. They say it will take less time than the 7 given how advanced the kit is, and it has me reconsidering.

I do like the sonex, and could probably deal with the small size (neither me nor my wife are big people). But for cross country, which is something I'd like to do a good amount of, I'm concerned at the small size and the meager fuel capacity.

I know it seems like a crazy comparison to be deciding between the "cadillac" 14 and the "yaris" sonex, but that is sort of where I am at right now. Also, I'd need to sit in the cockpit of both and/or get a ride, but was wondering if anyone else had the same dilemma.

Thoughts much appreciated!

I used to own an RV-7 and have flown it across country. I am 5'8 and 160 lbs and even the -7 could get a little tight width wise. I am going to build the 14. I was so excited when Van's came out with it because of the extra room and the build is easier. I love the canopy and that is much easier to build than the -7. As you said, if you plan on flying extensively cross country, you better be comfortable and have room for that extra stuff you need to bring for those 3 1/2 hour legs. I would definitely build the 14 if I were you. Let me get my wings ordered first though. Good luck and happy flying.
 
I am in the process of finishing up my RV7, and likewise considered a sonex. The one thing I noticed in your post is the cost. While a sonex that is being made for X/C might run un the 40K area From what I have seen and just the running tally of my RV7 it is currently around 70+K. The 14 has to cost more equipped dual displays, transponders, with some type of redundancy. The IO 390 just cost more and you don't see a lot of them laying around for cheap purchase.
You always seem to be buying more parts and optional stuff. I totally forgot about the interior.
Jack
 
Mike,
One poster said fly and decide. I think that is an important datapoint.

I will not sway you to an RV. They have a particular cost, performance, value matrix. The Sonex matrix is a bit different. You need to plug in the values for yourself and decide.

I will tell you that there is no way on this earth I will fly behind a bug engine.
They are underpowered and too prone to failure for my liking.

Having said that, I will happily fly behind a Viking powered Sonex.
A neighbor of mine was the first to install and it has transformed the craft into an RV12 killer. (ala dumping the Allison out of the 'stang)

Some have said the Sonex is a "local flyer". My neighbor uses his to commute from Asheville to Maine very frequently. I have not heard him say a peep about fuel tank size.

Good luck. Whatever you build, you become one of the few.
 
...I'd need to sit in the cockpit of both and/or get a ride, but was wondering if anyone else had the same dilemma.

Yes! I was wrapped around the axle with this issue for some time.

Finally, the deciding point for me was that if I was going to settle for a Sonex, I wanted one with the Jabiru 3300. And, Those engines have become quite dear lately.

I also don't want to be limited to uncontrolled airspace. So that means within a couple of years of completing my build, I'd have to have ADSB with a TSO'd GPS. And, once you go down that slippery slope, there's no way to build a Sonex anywhere close to cheap.

So, I decided to bite the bullet, and build the airplane I really want.

...But the devil's advocate in me says that if I'm going to build an airplane, I might as well spend my endless hours building the one that I really want.

Yep, that pretty well says it.
 
Size matters

I'm tall, 6'3", so size matters, thus the 14. It would have been far easier to just buy someone's 7A for my wife and my needs, but then We couldn't fit on cross country flights. Now I squeezed into a friends Sonex. My head was swished over to the middle of the canopy miserably! Unless you are a standard normal sized pilot, ( smart and small) then don't even consider the cool little Sonex. Now if you are tall, you could sit in the middle solo and enjoy the Sonex. I found the 14's width also very helpful in the shoulders & elbows!
Happy flying! Glad you took up the sport!!!
 
I'm not sure anyone can give you a definitive answer but I will try. I have flown almost all the RV's and have about 1000 hours on the RV4 I built. I've done the first flight and owner check-outs on two Sonexs so my experience is pretty limited in them. I watched a sonex being built and was impressed with the quality of the kit and plans. I liked the six cylinder jabaru version better. They are funny looking and I didn't like the distortion of the slopping windscreen but it wasn't a big issue. They both flew well but not as nice as any RV.
Since you are not big I don't see a huge advantage to the RV14 over the RV7. I doubt they are much less work. If you are not interested in aerobatics the RV9 is probably the best.
Despite what you my hear any plane is a lot of work but your first flight makes it more than worthwhile. Get rides in at least one and preferably several examples of each type and perhaps have your wife get a ride as well.
Good luck with whichever project you choose. [email protected]
 
As a friend said when I was making this decision, "There is reason why there are 8500+ RV's flying."

Besides, if your primary mission is cross country travel, then comfort and baggage space are important. The Some has neither.

If build time is a concern, build a -12. You get a spacious cross country cruiser that is easy to build.
 
Last edited:
I'd echo Bill (above) on the RV-12. I've now helped with a -12 build and am doing all the wiring for a Onex. The -12 plans were much more detailed and the kit was much more complete - basically every part you need to build it.

My additional advice: DONT build alone. Get a partner to divide the cost and double the fun. You will never use the plane as much as you plan to and planes are happiest when flown often.

The RV-12 I know has 4 partners and they all fly it and maintain it. I've never seen a scheduling conflict either. I fly a -6 and the -12 is more comfortable. Storage space is a bit limited by the fuel tank so go see one and get a ride.

If your build partner is a repeat builder (with $) you might consider a -7 or -14.

As for speed, go to skyvector.com and plug in your typical trip. Then try 120kt vs 170kt to see just how much time you'll really save. And if it's worth the cost. Frankly, flying is the fun part. :)
 
How's you health?

Let me just add another twist on things. Like most posters I though about a Sonex early in the scheme of things. Then I compared the cost with building a Zenith Zodiac and an RV-9A(O-320). I chose the RV. Almost three years ago I had to have open heart surgery(no heart attack or stroke). September 2012 I got my third class medical back. I sent in my paperwork to the FAA for the renewal back in September 2013 for the second year renewal. I am about two months out from completing my 9A. I am still waiting for my medical approval back from the FAA even though my health hasn't changed any the last year and I passed my nuclear stress test. I wish now I had built the Zodiac so I could fly under the Sport Pilot rules. If I could put a Corvair on the front of a RV-12 that would be my preferred choice at this time. If the FAA screws me I will be selling the 9A. At this time I don't have alot of faith in the AOPA/EAA exemption or the Pilot Protection legislature making any impact on the FAA third class medical requirement(even though either makes sense) for sport flying. The cost of the engine for a RV-14 is almost what I have invested in my 9A with a VFR glass cockpit and an overhauled O-320.
 
Back
Top