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Advice for a potential RV-12 owner

M

mturnerb

Well Known Member
Hello all

I'm a pilot (Private/instrument - 350 hrs) who has been out of flying for a while (20 years) for all the usual reasons and wants to return to the club. I'm aware of current action around 3rd class medical, but assuming this is going to take a while (and not wanting to run the gauntlet of getting waivers for my normal aging-related health issues) the LSA route looks attractive, and the RV-12 looks like a good fit for my interests. It would be nice to actually see one and even ride/fly one to get a better sense of whether this is the right aircraft for me. I'm not interested now in building a plane - still working and extensive travel makes this impractical, but might consider this when I'm (semi) retired in a few years. I'm not particularly experienced with metalworking/mechanical skills but good with electronics and good at following instructions and tapping online resources. So some questions for this group of experts:

1. Pros and cons of buying a production RV-12 versus used kit-built?
2. Related to #1, what's the best way to get a used/kit built aircraft objectively evaluated?
3. What's the best way to get current (no LSA flight school/rental in my area - Jacksonville/St Augustine - that I can find) while in the process/
4. What's a reasonable transition/training plan once aircraft is chosen/purchased - in light of location? (If anyone can point me to owners/CFI's/other resources in North Florida / South Georgia that would be helpful)
5. Given my current experience level and plan to go "no medical" what should I expect insurance to cost (understanding that airframe value will impact this)?
6. In the same vein, what is reasonable to expect in terms of maintenance/annual costs? I'm not sure whether I'd pursue the repairman certification but thoughts on this appreciated.
7. Is the interior temperature manageable for someone who will fly in Florida/the Southeast for the most part? I tend to like to fly earlier in the day and late afternoon in the summer based on my previous experiences with thermals and pop-up storms in Florida.
8. What are the "gotchas" for a pilot with experience mostly in BE-23 and PA-28?

Quite a bit to ask - and any input very much appreciated.
 
The is a some LSA activity at Punta Gorda, Sebring, and Lakeland. You might catch a ride in a 12 at Sun N Fun if Mitch Lock brings the Vans demo down. I would definitely recommend multi-hour transition training if you've never flown. LSA. A big difference between LSA and your PA28 is the power setting numbers with the Rotax, the weight of the plane and how it responds, the castering nosewheel, and even your own rudder skills (hence the need for transition training).
 
mturnerb said:
Hello all

I'm a pilot (Private/instrument - 350 hrs) who has been out of flying for a while (20 years) for all the usual reasons and wants to return to the club. I'm aware of current action around 3rd class medical, but assuming this is going to take a while (and not wanting to run the gauntlet of getting waivers for my normal aging-related health issues) the LSA route looks attractive, and the RV-12 looks like a good fit for my interests. It would be nice to actually see one and even ride/fly one to get a better sense of whether this is the right aircraft for me. I'm not interested now in building a plane - still working and extensive travel makes this impractical, but might consider this when I'm (semi) retired in a few years. I'm not particularly experienced with metalworking/mechanical skills but good with electronics and good at following instructions and tapping online resources. So some questions for this group of experts:

1. Pros and cons of buying a production RV-12 versus used kit-built?
2. Related to #1, what's the best way to get a used/kit built aircraft objectively evaluated?
3. What's the best way to get current (no LSA flight school/rental in my area - Jacksonville/St Augustine - that I can find) while in the process/
4. What's a reasonable transition/training plan once aircraft is chosen/purchased - in light of location? (If anyone can point me to owners/CFI's/other resources in North Florida / South Georgia that would be helpful)
5. Given my current experience level and plan to go "no medical" what should I expect insurance to cost (understanding that airframe value will impact this)?
6. In the same vein, what is reasonable to expect in terms of maintenance/annual costs? I'm not sure whether I'd pursue the repairman certification but thoughts on this appreciated.
7. Is the interior temperature manageable for someone who will fly in Florida/the Southeast for the most part? I tend to like to fly earlier in the day and late afternoon in the summer based on my previous experiences with thermals and pop-up storms in Florida.
8. What are the "gotchas" for a pilot with experience mostly in BE-23 and PA-28?

Quite a bit to ask - and any input very much appreciated.
Click to expand...

I'm in exactly the same situation as you except I have a couple of hundred hours more and have been out of aviation for 10 more years.

1. I picked the -12 for the reasons you mention plus I needed very little extra help - I don't have anyone to buck rivets. The build has been a lot of fun. I've done it all so far in my two car garage - moving to a hanger in DeLand Monday.

2. Didn't know this was even a possibility until I started following VAF. They come up for sale every once in a while.

3., 4. There's an outfit in Apopka that does LSA training in Tecnam Sierra's. They're as close to a -12 I've been able to find. I haven't talked to them yet about it but I intend to next week.

Can't help with the others.
 
According to this FAA AIRCRAFT REGISTRY, there are several RV-12s located in FL. Some are based at Spruce Creek airpark in Port Orange.
Building a RV-12 is more of assembly rather than building. It is the easiest to build of all of the kit planes. Your electronic skills might not be needed with the RV-12 plug and play electrical and avionics system.
 
novipilot said:
The is a some LSA activity at Punta Gorda, Sebring, and Lakeland. You might catch a ride in a 12 at Sun N Fun if Mitch Lock brings the Vans demo down. I would definitely recommend multi-hour transition training if you've never flown. LSA. A big difference between LSA and your PA28 is the power setting numbers with the Rotax, the weight of the plane and how it responds, the castering nosewheel, and even your own rudder skills (hence the need for transition training).
Click to expand...

Thanks - great information and good advice! I'm going to give Van's a call to ask about a few things and will inquire about the demonstrator.
 
tomkk said:
I'm in exactly the same situation as you except I have a couple of hundred hours more and have been out of aviation for 10 more years.

1. I picked the -12 for the reasons you mention plus I needed very little extra help - I don't have anyone to buck rivets. The build has been a lot of fun. I've done it all so far in my two car garage - moving to a hanger in DeLand Monday.

2. Didn't know this was even a possibility until I started following VAF. They come up for sale every once in a while.

3., 4. There's an outfit in Apopka that does LSA training in Tecnam Sierra's. They're as close to a -12 I've been able to find. I haven't talked to them yet about it but I intend to next week.

Can't help with the others.
Click to expand...

Thanks Tom: perhaps we could get together sometime and share notes/thoughts soon - I'm just up the road from you. FYI DeLand was my favorite "$100 hamburger" haunt back in the day - watch skydivers and eat one of the best burgers ever. But the first time chutes started popping when I was on final was a bit unnerving!
 
Mich48041 said:
According to this FAA AIRCRAFT REGISTRY, there are several RV-12s located in FL. Some are based at Spruce Creek airpark in Port Orange.
Building a RV-12 is more of assembly rather than building. It is the easiest to build of all of the kit planes. Your electronic skills might not be needed with the RV-12 plug and play electrical and avionics system.
Click to expand...

Thank you for this information. For me I think the bigger near-term issue is time. My job requires frequent international and domestic travel which makes continuity and consistency a real problem. I have seen one "nearly finished" RV-12 for sale, and may look into that. My wife is somewhat disposed to a "factory built" aircraft and may be the quickest way to get flying if we choose to go that route.
 
Advantage of E-LSA

The biggest advantage of going E-LSA is the savings in maintennance cost. Take the 16-hour course-- it's fun and you'll learn a lot. You can then do the condition inspection and any work that needs to be done yourself.

Flying early morning is a VERY good idea. The -12's light weight and high-lift airfoil gives it GREAT takeoff and climb performance but also results in a very sharp-edged gust response. Once you bang your head on the canopy you'll learn to keep the lap belts tight. More fun to fly and the easiest airplane to make good landings-- if you keep the speed down-- I've ever flown. DEFINITELY get transition training-- maybe even do re-currency in a -12.

Wayne 120241/143WM
 
Some answers:
1. Pros and cons of buying a production RV-12 versus used kit-built?
I would not hesitate to buy an ELSA kit-built. There is not a lot of fabrication at all to an RV12, it is assembly. Get a good inspection, but a -12 is easy to inspect. You could save considerable money compared to a factory built. An "almost finished" one could be a good idea as well. Remember, you have to pay for a paint job. Be sure to get the plans with the plane, or buy a set from Vans.

4. What's a reasonable transition/training plan once aircraft is chosen/purchased - in light of location? (If anyone can point me to owners/CFI's/other resources in North Florida / South Georgia that would be helpful)

I had been out of flying for 7 years when my RV12 was almost complete. I took a 5 hour transition course with Jetguy in Dallas. Good to go.

5. Given my current experience level and plan to go "no medical" what should I expect insurance to cost (understanding that airframe value will impact this)?

I let my medical lapse as well. Get a quote from Falcon Insurance for a definitive answer based on your flying history. Falcon wanted the 5 hour transition in my case.

6. In the same vein, what is reasonable to expect in terms of maintenance/annual costs? I'm not sure whether I'd pursue the repairman certification but thoughts on this appreciated.

They will be very low. Getting the repairman certificate is a no-brainer. A weekend course. You can do all the work on the plane without one except for the annual inspection. You might want to get some assistance on that the first time anyway.

7. Is the interior temperature manageable for someone who will fly in Florida/the Southeast for the most part? I tend to like to fly earlier in the day and late afternoon in the summer based on my previous experiences with thermals and pop-up storms in Florida.

The Koger sunshade is a must-have. With that you'll be OK.

8. What are the "gotchas" for a pilot with experience mostly in BE-23 and PA-28?

Nothing that transition training won't cover. Surprisingly, it has more torque effect that my V-35 had. Very sprightly for 100 HP! Free castering nosewheel will take some getting used to. Point the plane about 10 degrees to the right of centerline for takeoff, then it will swing itself straight at about the time the rudder becomes effective. Takeoff with no flaps is quite a bit longer that takeoff with the recommended half flaps. Also, the last 100 pounds to gross weight makes a significant difference in performance.

You really want the Skyview.
 
Bill_H said:
Some answers:
1. Pros and cons of buying a production RV-12 versus used kit-built?
I would not hesitate to buy an ELSA kit-built. There is not a lot of fabrication at all to an RV12, it is assembly. Get a good inspection, but a -12 is easy to inspect. You could save considerable money compared to a factory built. An "almost finished" one could be a good idea as well. Remember, you have to pay for a paint job. Be sure to get the plans with the plane, or buy a set from Vans.

4. What's a reasonable transition/training plan once aircraft is chosen/purchased - in light of location? (If anyone can point me to owners/CFI's/other resources in North Florida / South Georgia that would be helpful)

I had been out of flying for 7 years when my RV12 was almost complete. I took a 5 hour transition course with Jetguy in Dallas. Good to go.

5. Given my current experience level and plan to go "no medical" what should I expect insurance to cost (understanding that airframe value will impact this)?

I let my medical lapse as well. Get a quote from Falcon Insurance for a definitive answer based on your flying history. Falcon wanted the 5 hour transition in my case.

6. In the same vein, what is reasonable to expect in terms of maintenance/annual costs? I'm not sure whether I'd pursue the repairman certification but thoughts on this appreciated.

They will be very low. Getting the repairman certificate is a no-brainer. A weekend course. You can do all the work on the plane without one except for the annual inspection. You might want to get some assistance on that the first time anyway.

7. Is the interior temperature manageable for someone who will fly in Florida/the Southeast for the most part? I tend to like to fly earlier in the day and late afternoon in the summer based on my previous experiences with thermals and pop-up storms in Florida.

The Koger sunshade is a must-have. With that you'll be OK.

8. What are the "gotchas" for a pilot with experience mostly in BE-23 and PA-28?

Nothing that transition training won't cover. Surprisingly, it has more torque effect that my V-35 had. Very sprightly for 100 HP! Free castering nosewheel will take some getting used to. Point the plane about 10 degrees to the right of centerline for takeoff, then it will swing itself straight at about the time the rudder becomes effective. Takeoff with no flaps is quite a bit longer that takeoff with the recommended half flaps. Also, the last 100 pounds to gross weight makes a significant difference in performance.

You really want the Skyview.
Click to expand...

Bill this is outstanding. Thank you very much. FYI I notice you live in Arkansas. I learned to fly at Central Flying Service in Little Rock (I was in the Air Force at the time) and got my private checkride from Claude Holbert who founded that company: He died two weeks later, with something like 50,000 hours and having trained pilots for the Army Air Force in WWII. My dad was a Razorback and grew up around Mena/Helena area.
 
yankee-flyer said:
The biggest advantage of going E-LSA is the savings in maintennance cost. Take the 16-hour course-- it's fun and you'll learn a lot. You can then do the condition inspection and any work that needs to be done yourself.
/QUOTE]

Just as an FYI, you don't need the repairman certificate to perform maintenance on an experimental aircraft.
The LSA repairman/inspection certificate only allows one to perform the condition inspection. Anyone can do all maintenance.
Click to expand...
 
mturnerb said:
Thanks Tom: perhaps we could get together sometime and share notes/thoughts soon - I'm just up the road from you. FYI DeLand was my favorite "$100 hamburger" haunt back in the day - watch skydivers and eat one of the best burgers ever. But the first time chutes started popping when I was on final was a bit unnerving!
Click to expand...
:) John, the airport manager, claims it's still the best burger in the state ...
 
Here's another view...

We were in your circumstances when returning from Australia and back to flying in 2011. For some of the same reasons, I investigated LSA a/c and quickly found the RV-12 to be my best candidate. At that time there was no S-LSA option. Here are some things I learned:
-- You may not be a likely candidate to build your own, but nevertheless looking at the plans will help you understand the multiple comments about 'assembly' vs. 'build' and perhaps make you/your wife more comfortable with purchasing an E-LSA model
-- You are considering a major purchase and significant decision (choosing the a/c model) that will most influence your flying lifestyle. Consequently, a weekend (or so...) trip up to Maryland to meet Mitch Lock, fly in his demonstrator, look at the plans and generally understand the RV-12 choice is something you & your wife should consider a 'must'. Mitch is a wonderful guy, an experienced builder, and will only speak truth. IMO making that trip is the single best & most helpful shopping decision you can make.
-- I flew Mitch's plane at Sebring, and he does try to set up demo flights at several of the major shows. He MAY be demo'ing the plane out of Plant City when Sun'nFun is being held. But it's a real 'production sequence' if you can get a slot, and you may find that difficult to arrange even so. The MD trip is the better option.
-- I liked the plane a lot, didn't find it to have quite the 'Vans feel' that the 9A and 6 I've flown have, but for an LSA (small, light, etc.) it gave an impressive flying experience. However, we opted to return to flying a Grumman AA-5X for the simple reason that, on reflection, we realized none of the RV models in our price range could fulfill our particular mission. So while you found yourself sliding into the "SPL privileges/LSA aircraft" realm, I would encourage you to back up a step and be sure you've future-proofed your assumptions about the kind of flying you want to be doing. In our case, the RV-12's interior volume and useful load, altho' great by LSA standards, wouldn't come close to matching our plans.
-- One last 'ah-ha' for me was the cost of building an RV-12, and of course a S-LSA model is even more expensive. Tools, kits, options and paint combined represented a significant purchase. For about 60% of that amount I got an all but new engine, a well built (Gulfstream) & modern composite airframe, the interior volume and useful load (plus range) we needed, and I can fly in IMC which provides more utility for us. None of that diminishes the choice of an RV-12 if it's all that you want it to be, now and in the future. And the VAF community here is the best forum with the best support available. Just be sure it's what YOU will want to be flying.

Good luck on the 'hunt', John. It sure is fun, isn't it!?

Jack
Just a bit north of you, in Jax. We fly out of Herlong Recreational. Feel free to invite yourself up for a visit.
RAF Florida Liaison
www.theraf.org
 
Jack Tyler said:
We were in your circumstances when returning from Australia and back to flying in 2011. For some of the same reasons, I investigated LSA a/c and quickly found the RV-12 to be my best candidate. At that time there was no S-LSA option. Here are some things I learned:
-- You may not be a likely candidate to build your own, but nevertheless looking at the plans will help you understand the multiple comments about 'assembly' vs. 'build' and perhaps make you/your wife more comfortable with purchasing an E-LSA model
-- You are considering a major purchase and significant decision (choosing the a/c model) that will most influence your flying lifestyle. Consequently, a weekend (or so...) trip up to Maryland to meet Mitch Lock, fly in his demonstrator, look at the plans and generally understand the RV-12 choice is something you & your wife should consider a 'must'. Mitch is a wonderful guy, an experienced builder, and will only speak truth. IMO making that trip is the single best & most helpful shopping decision you can make.
-- I flew Mitch's plane at Sebring, and he does try to set up demo flights at several of the major shows. He MAY be demo'ing the plane out of Plant City when Sun'nFun is being held. But it's a real 'production sequence' if you can get a slot, and you may find that difficult to arrange even so. The MD trip is the better option.
-- I liked the plane a lot, didn't find it to have quite the 'Vans feel' that the 9A and 6 I've flown have, but for an LSA (small, light, etc.) it gave an impressive flying experience. However, we opted to return to flying a Grumman AA-5X for the simple reason that, on reflection, we realized none of the RV models in our price range could fulfill our particular mission. So while you found yourself sliding into the "SPL privileges/LSA aircraft" realm, I would encourage you to back up a step and be sure you've future-proofed your assumptions about the kind of flying you want to be doing. In our case, the RV-12's interior volume and useful load, altho' great by LSA standards, wouldn't come close to matching our plans.
-- One last 'ah-ha' for me was the cost of building an RV-12, and of course a S-LSA model is even more expensive. Tools, kits, options and paint combined represented a significant purchase. For about 60% of that amount I got an all but new engine, a well built (Gulfstream) & modern composite airframe, the interior volume and useful load (plus range) we needed, and I can fly in IMC which provides more utility for us. None of that diminishes the choice of an RV-12 if it's all that you want it to be, now and in the future. And the VAF community here is the best forum with the best support available. Just be sure it's what YOU will want to be flying.

Good luck on the 'hunt', John. It sure is fun, isn't it!?

Jack
Just a bit north of you, in Jax. We fly out of Herlong Recreational. Feel free to invite yourself up for a visit.
RAF Florida Liaison
www.theraf.org
Click to expand...

Jack - great advice. I've already reached out to Mitch and we're trying to find a time that works. I'd love to meet up with you sometime soon to chat and learn more about the RAF at Herlong (not far from me at all). Thanks!
 
If you do the experimental route be sure it is ELSA, not E-AB, as you can't to the sign-off on an E-AB unless you're an A&P.
As has been noted, Vans has a tremendous support system built in. That's why I follow this forum. But, there are other LSA that work well for some people. Remember, a J3 Cub is probably an LSA, as are many Champs if you like the standard certificated route to flying on Sport Pilot privileges. I fly long distances and prefer few stops, so range was an issue in my choice of LSA.
Choice of Rotax engine might be of interest to some. The injected version seems to be getting the bugs worked out is a fuel sipper.
Having said that, I don't want to offend my hosts and the RV-12 is surely an excellent airplane.
 
jnmeade said:
If you do the experimental route be sure it is ELSA, not E-AB, as you can't to the sign-off on an E-AB unless you're an A&P.
As has been noted, Vans has a tremendous support system built in. That's why I follow this forum. But, there are other LSA that work well for some people. Remember, a J3 Cub is probably an LSA, as are many Champs if you like the standard certificated route to flying on Sport Pilot privileges. I fly long distances and prefer few stops, so range was an issue in my choice of LSA.
Choice of Rotax engine might be of interest to some. The injected version seems to be getting the bugs worked out is a fuel sipper.
Having said that, I don't want to offend my hosts and the RV-12 is surely an excellent airplane.
Click to expand...

So which LSA did you choose? Range is a consideration for me as well but given the weight limit tradeoffs are necessary.
 
If you need more than the 20 gallons, check the mod thread for an extra 5 gallon removable tank you can add. But I find that a three hour leg, landing with more than an hour's fuel still in the tank, is a good profile.
 
Jim,

You don't have to be an A&P to sign off annuals on an EAB. If you are the builder you can apply for a repairman certificate good only for the aircraft you built. It gives you IA authority for that aircraft.

You are correct that n A& P can sign off an EAB without an IA rating.

Rich
 
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