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  #31  
Old 06-23-2019, 09:58 AM
Carl Froehlich's Avatar
Carl Froehlich Carl Froehlich is offline
 
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As always Dan is technically on point.

I offer that the NOTAM is long overdue to update the 1800' and 90 knot guidance. Considering the plethora of RVs flying in each year, and that such a long run at slow speed is not a routine evolution for most RV guys, I fear the addition of being directed behind a 70 knot weak sister, or other unexpected stuff to the pilot workload might lead to inadvertent stalls. Looking back at last year's problems we were lucky.

There has to be a better option. Perhaps a controlled "merge" procedure?

In the meantime, as has been suggested use half flaps to gain a little speed margin, and practice.

Carl
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  #32  
Old 06-23-2019, 10:05 AM
Kyle Boatright Kyle Boatright is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl Froehlich View Post
As always Dan is technically on point.

I offer that the NOTAM is long overdue to update the 1800' and 90 knot guidance. Considering the plethora of RVs flying in each year, and that such a long run at slow speed is not a routine evolution for most RV guys, I fear the addition of being directed behind a 70 knot weak sister, or other unexpected stuff to the pilot workload might lead to inadvertent stalls. Looking back at last year's problems we were lucky.

There has to be a better option. Perhaps a controlled "merge" procedure?

In the meantime, as has been suggested use half flaps to gain a little speed margin, and practice.

Carl
Thing is, the RV does as well at 70 knots as a Cherokee, a Tomahawk, or any of the Grummans. Being able to handle a 90 knot (plus or minus) arrival should not be a challenge.
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  #33  
Old 06-23-2019, 11:55 AM
rocketman1988 rocketman1988 is offline
 
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Exactly. If you aren’t comfortable with “slow flight”, get some training and/or practice until you are comfortable.

All of the rv’s except the -10 have stall speeds around 58 mph or less. That’s about 50 knots. Flying at 70 knots should not be any issue whatsoever for the airplane...
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  #34  
Old 06-23-2019, 12:32 PM
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Carl Froehlich Carl Froehlich is offline
 
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As often happens I failed to properly communicate my point.

I choose to fly always striving for a margin a safety. The RV will fly fine at 90 knots or less, until something unforeseen happens. The Oshkosh NOTAM can be challenging, and the traffic only adds to the risk. Having a few more knots of speed to get yourself out of a mess has inherent advantage.

There is a difference between capable and prudent.

Stepping off my soapbox.
Carl
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  #35  
Old 06-23-2019, 12:40 PM
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It's mentioned a lot, but when was the last time someone actually bent metal with an inadvertent stall between Ripon and traffic pattern?

Using the search terms "state = Wisconsin" and keyword "Stall", I went through all 187 accident/incident results, looking at any which fell within the expected date window with a location identified as Oshkosh. Plenty of pattern accidents, mostly short final and flare, but not a single report of an accident while inbound from Ripon, in any airplane type.

One the other hand, the pattern can be a high-pressure place. Muddying it up more drop-ins from the 2300 ft level would make things worse.

BTW, here are a few good examples of why everyone should practice a half dozen abbreviated right hand patterns to touchdown. I'm doing it this afternoon:

https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/Re...=HTML&IType=FA

https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/Re...=HTML&IType=FA

https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/Re...=HTML&IType=FA
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Last edited by DanH : 06-23-2019 at 12:42 PM.
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  #36  
Old 06-23-2019, 12:44 PM
rocketman1988 rocketman1988 is offline
 
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Default So...

So, you are flying an arrival that Requires a speed, the aircraft is capable...do you add “a few more knots” because it’s “prudent”?

Sorry, when it comes right down to it, that does not work on arrivals. Why?...because you are not the only one flying the arrival; the whole procedure is predicated on EVERYONE complying with the procedure. The guy that takes liberties with the arrival procedures is “that guy”.

In the end, if you cannot, or choose not to comply with the published procedure, then you are obligated to make other arrangements such that you do not endanger everyone else...
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  #37  
Old 06-23-2019, 12:51 PM
rightrudder rightrudder is offline
 
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I'm not averse to flying in at 90 kts...extremely easy to do in a -9. My decision to go high & fast...based on far too many planes trying to occupy too small a space at 1800'...was not to line-jump but to arrive at OSH as safely as possible. I'm not advocating this as an everyday shortcut for RVs. Yet on that particular day under those extraordinary conditions, it was the safer thing to do as PIC.

Once you're past Fisk, you're not descending into the maelstrom...that's reserved for holding patterns and the area pre-Ripon to Fisk. Sure, there is some risk in the descent here, but tower has eyes on you. Light twins, etc. are assuming that risk too.

Here's hoping that the weather allows a safe and orderly approach to Osh for everyone in 2019. I'm perfectly happy at 90 kts as long as I'm not in de facto formation flying, alongside others who have no training in the discipline. And it really got to that point in '18.
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  #38  
Old 06-23-2019, 12:57 PM
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RV8JD RV8JD is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rocketman1988 View Post
All of the rv’s except the -10 have stall speeds around 58 mph or less. That’s about 50 knots. Flying at 70 knots should not be any issue whatsoever for the airplane...
Not arguing with your premise, but in addition to the RV-10s, the RV-7s and -8s have stall speeds above 58 MPH flaps up. 15 or 20 degrees of flap on some models will help (per the Flap Placard speeds in post #18). However, flaps up maneuver margin at 70 KTS may be a little marginal for some pilots.

Ref: https://www.vansaircraft.com/faq/air...ings-by-model/



--> Note that Van's published stall speeds may not apply to all RVs of the same type.
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  #39  
Old 06-23-2019, 01:28 PM
rightrudder rightrudder is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanH View Post

BTW, here are a few good examples of why everyone should practice a half dozen abbreviated right hand patterns to touchdown. I'm doing it this afternoon...
Definitely. I plan on going to Redlands and doing several of those myself.
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Tail number N427DK
Donation made for 2020
You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky -- Amelia Earhart
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  #40  
Old 06-23-2019, 01:44 PM
Kyle Boatright Kyle Boatright is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RV8JD View Post
Not arguing with your premise, but in addition to the RV-10s, the RV-7s and -8s have stall speeds above 58 MPH flaps up. 15 or 20 degrees of flap on some models will help (per the Flap Placard speeds in post #18). However, flaps up maneuver margin at 70 KTS may be a little marginal for some pilots.
With a notch of flaps, none of these aircraft will stall at more than 60, maybe 62 mph. Multiply that by 1.3 to get yourself an adequate margin against stall, and you get 62x1.3 = 81 mph. Divide that by 1.15 and you get 70 knots.

But if you're not comfortable there, bail out of the line at 75 knots.

Keep yourself safe, but consider that the procedures only work if we follow them.
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