VansAirForceForums  
Home > VansAirForceForums

- POSTING RULES
- Donate yearly (please).
- Advertise in here!

- Today's Posts | Insert Pics

  #1  
Old 01-18-2019, 07:57 PM
N941WR's Avatar
N941WR N941WR is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: SC
Posts: 12,387
Default P-mag Timing Explained

Axel, thank you for the picture!
Quote:
Originally Posted by AX-O View Post
...

I also set the timing of the PMAGS and configured the "B curve" as shown below. Set the Max engine RPM to 2816, dropped the Max Advance to 33.6 deg and subtracted 1.4 deg on the curve shift. Will play around with this once I get more familiar with it. For now the instrument will remain off along with ADSB since I have to get back in the cockpit. Trying to minimize the info coming in that is not required.


...
This is a great picture of our new EICommander EIC32 that Axel posted on his Fast Back thread.

I am writing the following to help explain how the timing should be set on engines running P-mags.

This seem to be especially important for those running angle valve engines (IO-360, 390, & 400's).

The following assumes the P-mag timing marks are set at the TDC. All examples for standard 8.5:1 compression parallel valve engines. Below will be some numbers for angle valve engines.

Everything I describe below can be configured with either an EICoimmander, with the EICAD program available from Emag Ignitions, or by clocking the ignitions as described in the Emag Electronic Ignition Installation & Operating Guide available here.

Displayed in this picture it the timing configuration page from the new EICommander EIC32. This is a custom "C" configuration that Axel has made and sent to his P-mags.

First, the standard P-mag "A" jumper in configuration has a the following settings:
RPM Max (Rev limiter): 3328 RPM's
Advance Shift: 0 - This equates to 26.6 degrees before TDC.
Max Advance: 35.0 degrees before TDC.

Max RPM;
Axel reduced the point where the P-mags will stop firing to 2816 RPM's. This is good because should he have a prop governor failure, the P-mags will limit the overspeed to this number and help him avoid an engine overhaul.

Advance Shift:
By setting the Advance Shift to a -1.4 degrees, the high power timing setting will be 25.2 degrees BTC.

Max Advance:
The Max Advance is exactly what is sounds like. As the manifold pressure drops off with altitude and throttle setting, this is limits how far the P-mags will advance.

RMSD:
Run Mode Start Delay allows the engine to delay firing the sparkplugs for a set number of revolutions. Zero is the desired setting. If you change this to two (2), the engine will make two complete revolutions prior to firing the sparkplugs. If this is set to any value other than zero (0), the engine will pump raw fuel out the exhaust ports, which will light off with a bang once the ignition comes on line. Thus we highly recommend it be left at zero (0).

LED:
The allows you to turn on and off the external LED. Leaving it set to "SENS" allows you to see the LED turn red, yellow, and green as required to set the timing. In the newer EIC32, we do not allow this to be changed.

A few comments about P-mag configurations:
1. We have not heard of any Lycomings where the P-mags should be run on the "B curve" (no jumper). The "B Curve" starts firing the ignitions at 30.8 degrees BTC and advances out to 39.2 degrees.

2. The configuration Axel has selected appears to work very well for Parallel valve engines. We have enough experience with it to say that in a typical installation, this will reduce the CHT's 10 to 20 degrees F and increase speed a few knots over the standard "A" - jumper in configuration.

3. If you run an angle valve engine (IO-360, 390, 400, etc.) that requires a 20 degree timing, neither the "A" nor "B" curve should be used when the P-mag's timing mark is set to TDC. Using either of these configurations could damage your engine.

There are three ways to set the timing for these engines. One is to "clock" the ignitions, similar to how the timing is set with a standard magneto. Contact Emag Ignitions for details.

The other two options are to create a custom configuration with either an EICommander or the free EICAD program from Emag Ignitions.

Again, this assumes you have set your timing mark to Top Dead Center.

Advance Shift:
-7.0 will cause the P-mag to fire at 19.6 degrees BTC during high power operations such as takeoffs.

Max Advance:
29.4 will limit the maximum, lower power advance to this value.

These engines should never be set at TDC and then run with either the jumper in or jumper out. Either of these configurations may damage your engine when the TDC mark is set to Top Dead Center.

CHT cooling on angle valve engines seems to be much better than parallel valve engines. Do not take acceptable CHT's as an indication that all is OK with your engine while running excessive advance in your angle valve engine.

If you have a high compression engine, consult your engine builder for the proper timing advance.

As always, feel free to contact me off line, if you have questions. I am more than happy to help protect you and your engine. I don't care if you are an EICommander customer or not, I am happy to help.

Either Angle or Parallel Valve engines:
Finally, if you have a new engine, or a newly overhauled engine, I recommend you set the Max Advance number to equal your high power timing number for the first 10 hours +/-. This way, if you experience high CHT's for the first ten hours or so, you know the issue isn't a result of your timing advance and is probably the result of a baffling leak. After your CHT's drop, then change the Max Advance number as appropriate for your engine.

Clocking your P-mags:
Emag Ignition's preferred method of setting the timing is to not use the EICAD program but rather "clock" the timing mark. This achieves the same things as adjusting the internal timing values with either the EICAD program or the EICommander.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emag Igntion's 114 manual, page 13
CLOCKING: Set timing with the engine positioned slightly after TDC (1-6 degrees). Greater offsets will produce greater retard (less aggressive advance).
This does not require you to purchase any hardware (USB to serial connectors, EICommanader, etc.) or install the EICAD program on your computer. It accomplishes the same thing by moving the initial firing point and should be accomplished with the jump installed between P-mag pins 2 and 3.

Remember, the goal is to fire the spark plugs at the point recommended by your engine builder, any way this is accomplished is beneficial to you and your engine.

DB9 Connectors:
The following image is what I recommend to builders who install P-mags and plan on adjusting them with either the EICAD program or adding an EICommander later on (If you are going to start with an EICommander, wire them as recommended in the EIC manual. As stated above, it is not required, if you plan on "clocking" the ignitions to achieve optimal timing. This will allow you to connect to the P-mags with a PC from inside the cockpit and should you later decide to install an EICommander, you can make a simple wiring harness to join both P-mags to the EIC.
"No jumper" is depicted because the drawing assumes you are going to customize the P-mag configuration. If you elect to run the standard "A Curve", place the jumper at the DB9 plug.


Hand Proping:
Do not hand prop your plane, unless you have been trained in the fine art of hand propping.
If you expect to need to hand prop your aircraft, contact me off list (include your email address), and I will send you a wiring diagram on how to wire in a 9 volt battery to one P-mag.
__________________
Bill R.
RV-9 (Yes, it's a dragon tail)
O-360 w/ dual P-mags
Build the plane you want, not the plane others want you to build!
SC86 - Easley, SC
www.repucci.com/bill/baf.html

Last edited by N941WR : 01-24-2019 at 08:43 PM. Reason: Added comment about "Clocking your P-mags"
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 01-18-2019, 08:14 PM
pilotkms pilotkms is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: WARNER ROBINS, GA
Posts: 330
Default

Bill - u mention the free EICAD program from Emag. As I mentioned to u months ago, Ive not been able to get that program to work. Interested to know if anyone has been able to use it. I can get it displayed on my computer but I get no readings. Ive resorted to adjusting my timing by offsetting half a tooth from TDC. If someone says the program works Ill try it again. Maybe Im doing something wrong.
__________________
Keith
RV 7A RV #9700 May 2017
N325KS the Flying K
Built in SoCal KCCB, now in GA @ KPXE
430+ Hours & 7X cross the USA
OSH flyin 2018 & 2019 & Petit Jean 2019
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 01-18-2019, 08:26 PM
N941WR's Avatar
N941WR N941WR is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: SC
Posts: 12,387
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by pilotkms View Post
Bill - u mention the free EICAD program from Emag. As I mentioned to u months ago, I’ve not been able to get that program to work. Interested to know if anyone has been able to use it. I can get it displayed on my computer but I get no readings. I’ve resorted to adjusting my timing by offsetting half a tooth from TDC. If someone says the program works I’ll try it again. Maybe I’m doing something wrong.
I use an old Windows 10 computer and USB to DB9 converter. I suspect your issue was either with your computer and/or your converter.

What is most important is that you have adjusted your timing appropriately, which it sounds like you have done.

One thing to keep in mind is that your "rev limiter" is at the factory default, which is over 3300 RPM's. This should never be an issue, I hope.
__________________
Bill R.
RV-9 (Yes, it's a dragon tail)
O-360 w/ dual P-mags
Build the plane you want, not the plane others want you to build!
SC86 - Easley, SC
www.repucci.com/bill/baf.html

Last edited by N941WR : 01-18-2019 at 08:30 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 01-19-2019, 10:26 AM
Nova RV Nova RV is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Leesburg, VA
Posts: 388
Default

I got the Eicad program to work but it took trying several different USB to serial adapters and some port assignment tweaks.
__________________
Chris Moon

Leesburg, VA
RV-14A kit # 140243 (flying as of 11/18)
VAF 2018 and 2019 paid
www.mykitlog.com/chrismoon/
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 01-19-2019, 11:55 AM
N941WR's Avatar
N941WR N941WR is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: SC
Posts: 12,387
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nova RV View Post
I got the Eicad program to work but it took trying several different USB to serial adapters and some port assignment tweaks.
Can you share with us which adapter worked for you and what settings you had to tweek?
__________________
Bill R.
RV-9 (Yes, it's a dragon tail)
O-360 w/ dual P-mags
Build the plane you want, not the plane others want you to build!
SC86 - Easley, SC
www.repucci.com/bill/baf.html
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 01-19-2019, 01:42 PM
Nova RV Nova RV is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Leesburg, VA
Posts: 388
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by N941WR View Post
Can you share with us which adapter worked for you and what settings you had to tweek?
Trendnet adapter from Amazon
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0007T27H8/ref=emc_b_5_t

I'm not a computer whiz but what happened was the computer assigned the adapter to port #23 I think and I had to go into control panel (Windows laptop) and change that port assignment to port 4 as the EICAD seems to only recognize ports 1-4. Fortunately there was nothing assigned to port 4 that would have conflicted. Rebooted and it worked and I could use the program and read the Pmag parameters just fine.
__________________
Chris Moon

Leesburg, VA
RV-14A kit # 140243 (flying as of 11/18)
VAF 2018 and 2019 paid
www.mykitlog.com/chrismoon/
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 01-19-2019, 08:40 PM
pilotkms pilotkms is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: WARNER ROBINS, GA
Posts: 330
Default

Thanx Chris. Just ordered that adapter. Will see if I can get it to work.
__________________
Keith
RV 7A RV #9700 May 2017
N325KS the Flying K
Built in SoCal KCCB, now in GA @ KPXE
430+ Hours & 7X cross the USA
OSH flyin 2018 & 2019 & Petit Jean 2019
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 01-20-2019, 11:44 AM
N941WR's Avatar
N941WR N941WR is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: SC
Posts: 12,387
Default

For those who are going to change their P-mag configurations with the EICAD program available from Emag, you have to contact them to get access to the programs.

They have a Version 3 & Version 4, but have some minor bugs and my preference is version 3. Both work fine.

I suggest the following process:

1st. Download the EICAD program from Emag, either version.
2nd. Make a custom wiring harness, as described by Emag, and connect it to P-mag pins 1 (Ground), 2 (Receive), and 3 (Transmit). (Remember that P-mag pin 2-Rreceive must go to receive on the DB9 send pin 2 and P-mag pin 3-Transmit must go DB9 receive pin 3.)
3rd. Connect to the P-mag with your PC, start the program, and make sure it connects.
4th. Make your desired changes.
5th. Using something like the "Snipping Tool", save a screen shot of the new configuration and put a printed copy in your engine logbook.
6th. Cycle the power to the P-mags and pull up the configuration in the EICAD program to verify they were accepted.
7th. Change the configuration of your other P-mag as described above.
8th. DO NOT install the jumper. With a custom configuration, you want your P-mags to run on the recently modified B configuration.

If you need to reset the TDC mark by blowing in the tube, do so after you have changed the configuration, if needed, as described in the manual.

Good luck!
__________________
Bill R.
RV-9 (Yes, it's a dragon tail)
O-360 w/ dual P-mags
Build the plane you want, not the plane others want you to build!
SC86 - Easley, SC
www.repucci.com/bill/baf.html

Last edited by N941WR : 01-20-2019 at 12:19 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 01-21-2019, 02:48 PM
N941WR's Avatar
N941WR N941WR is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: SC
Posts: 12,387
Default

One additional benefit of getting your timing set properly is that your engine will operate more effectively, meaning more speed or better fuel burn.

Either way, it is critical that you set your timing properly.
__________________
Bill R.
RV-9 (Yes, it's a dragon tail)
O-360 w/ dual P-mags
Build the plane you want, not the plane others want you to build!
SC86 - Easley, SC
www.repucci.com/bill/baf.html
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 01-21-2019, 03:37 PM
DanH's Avatar
DanH DanH is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: 08A
Posts: 8,876
Default

Moderators, I'll suggest Bill's post should be a sticky. The suggested base timing and max advance values (Post #1) are well supported.

Parallel valve: base 25.2 degrees BTDC, max 33.6 (25 max 34)

Angle valve: base 19.6 BTDC, max 29.4 (20 max 29)

Although the post describes how to achieve those settings with an EI Commander or EICAD, the stated values apply to any ignition brand...and we have folks out there doing really dumb things with timing.
__________________
Dan Horton
RV-8 SS
Barrett IO-390

Last edited by DanH : 01-23-2019 at 11:22 AM.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:23 PM.


The VAFForums come to you courtesy Delta Romeo, LLC. By viewing and participating in them you agree to build your plane using standardized methods and practices and to fly it safely and in accordance with the laws governing the country you are located in.