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MOA/Restricted Area Communications

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erich weaver

Well Known Member
OK, bonehead questions here:

(1)If one is on VFR flight following and the flight path will take you over an MOA, what type of interaction should be expected with the controller as the MOA is approached?

(2) Same question as above for a restricted area

thanks

erich
 
Not much

Unless the controller needs to route you around or make you aware of traffic, not much. I had flight following from MSP crossing the MOA's near OSH this summer. Not a word from the controllers, but the MOA's were inactive.
 
I usually ask the question "is the area hot", you never know if the controller is busy with something else, and might miss your entry into the area.

If he/she gives the OK, well, then it is on tape.
 
Maintain VFR

This is the standard response by the controller when you request flight following and it means you are responsible for your own separation, they will advise you as they can depending on their workload. They are not providing you a clearance so you are not cleared into a restricted area unless you ask specifically and receive a clearance. The best thing you can do is talk to the controller about the MOA, if he can't tell you if it is active then he will be able to tell you who can. However, just because the MOA is active doesn't mean you can't be there - use your own judgement, I often travel through them but always contact the controlling authority and find out if it is active and if I enter I stay out of their way and still ask for flight following. Often the controller will let you know where the aircraft are at and be able to give you some guidance. (i.e. A-10's operating between 10 and 12 and will be staying South of ...) I rarely if ever ask for clearance through a restricted area. Some are not operational all the time though, so you can get clearances through them on a case by case basis.

Stewart
 
MOA / Restricted Airspace

This is the standard response by the controller when you request flight following and it means you are responsible for your own separation, they will advise you as they can depending on their workload. They are not providing you a clearance so you are not cleared into a restricted area unless you ask specifically and receive a clearance. The best thing you can do is talk to the controller about the MOA, if he can't tell you if it is active then he will be able to tell you who can. However, just because the MOA is active doesn't mean you can't be there - use your own judgement, I often travel through them but always contact the controlling authority and find out if it is active and if I enter I stay out of their way and still ask for flight following. Often the controller will let you know where the aircraft are at and be able to give you some guidance. (i.e. A-10's operating between 10 and 12 and will be staying South of ...) I rarely if ever ask for clearance through a restricted area. Some are not operational all the time though, so you can get clearances through them on a case by case basis.

Stewart
Stewart's reply is spot-on, and I would like to add that I always ask for clearance through restricted areas (especially since I'm surrounded by MOAs and Restricted airspace here near Edwards AFB-SoCAL). No harm in asking :)

On long cross country trips, I'll ask the current controller long before I get to a MOA / Restricted Airspace if the airspace is 'hot' so I can deviate sooner rather than later. If the controller is busy, I'll jump is with a quick "Is 2515 'hot'?" which always gets a quick reply.

Lastly, be sure to check the MOA altitude block as you will find the floor of the MOA may be above your current altitude :D Rosie
 
Since my home airport is within a MOA, I don't pay very much attention to them anymore. I still look for traffic, just as always, and the occasional sight of a flight of F-16's has the same element of caution as a flock of birds, or students in 172's... I don't want to hit any of them. So short answer: no clearance required for a MOA, hot or cold. But it is a fine idea to ask someone what is to be expected, just for peace of mind.

Restricted areas are another matter altogether. If on flight following, they will need to give you specific clearance to enter, if at all, and that clearance is often accompanied with a minimum altitude restriction. That said, I have been advised to remain clear, cleared above 6,000, or cleared straight through the Edwards AFB complex... It all depends on what is going on that day.
 
I live smack dab in the middle of one...

....and Atlanta won't give flight following if the MOA is hot. All of my spray work is in this one and I just go about my business every day and keep my eyes open, with their floor at 500'.
Regards,
 
Ask the appropriate Center controller unless there is a controlling agency listed for the MOA and/or Rstricted area. These will be published in the margin of the sectional.

As others have said, it's optional for MOAs, but required for Restricted areas.

TODR
 
Seriously?

I have 2 MOAs smack in the middle of my Phase I test area. Because of some weird radio issues that I'm troubleshooting, I've not been successful in determining whether the areas are hot or not. So, I usually just turn around and head back.

You mean that I can fly through a hot MOA without talking to anyone if I want to? I can fly right through it legally?
 
You mean that I can fly through a hot MOA without talking to anyone if I want to? I can fly right through it legally?

Yes, anyone can fly through a MOA without prior authorization.

Around here in the Southeast we are covered in them. As mentioned you can fly through them even if hot without a clearance, however I don't deem it the polite or safe thing to do. You may very well interrupt a military training exercise and they may have to knock it off until you are clear of the airspace. I prefer not to waste taxpayer dollars by having airmen flying fighters and helos around twiddling their thumbs and waiting for me to exit the area, so I always call and ask if it's hot. It only takes a second to look up the freq on the sectional and another second to call the controlling agency. I have found that the MOAs around here are rarely hot on the weekends, which I bet is when most of us get our flying in.

Sometimes it can't be avoided (i.e. as Pierre mentioned he is based inside of one) and in that case I'm just extra careful to keep my head on a swivel.

As Rosie pointed out, be sure to check the altitudes. Many of the MOAs are from say 7000ft to 18000ft, etc so often times they are not even an issue if you are flying lower.
 
MOAs

You mean that I can fly through a hot MOA without talking to anyone if I want to? I can fly right through it legally?

Yup, you are free to fly through an MOA. Not a very bright move, but it is "legal". A little "local knowledge" is a big help. Some MOAs see very little use, some are very busy. Here is what the AIM has to say, pay particular attention to the part about unrestricted airspeeds. How good are you at avoiding a supersonic fighter that is, indeed supersonic?

3-4-5. Military Operations Areas

a. MOAs consist of airspace of defined vertical and lateral limits established for the purpose of separating certain military training activities from IFR traffic. Whenever a MOA is being used, nonparticipating IFR traffic may be cleared through a MOA if IFR separation can be provided by ATC. Otherwise, ATC will reroute or restrict nonparticipating IFR traffic.

b. Examples of activities conducted in MOAs include, but are not limited to: air combat tactics, air intercepts, aerobatics, formation training, and low-altitude tactics. Military pilots flying in an active MOA are exempted from the provisions of 14 CFR Section 91.303(c) and (d) which prohibits aerobatic flight within Class D and Class E surface areas, and within Federal airways. Additionally, the Department of Defense has been issued an authorization to operate aircraft at indicated airspeeds in excess of 250 knots below 10,000 feet MSL within active MOAs.

c. Pilots operating under VFR should exercise extreme caution while flying within a MOA when military activity is being conducted. The activity status (active/inactive) of MOAs may change frequently. Therefore, pilots should contact any FSS within 100 miles of the area to obtain accurate real-time information concerning the MOA hours of operation. Prior to entering an active MOA, pilots should contact the controlling agency for traffic advisories.

d. MOAs are depicted on sectional, VFR Terminal Area, and Enroute Low Altitude charts.



John Clark ATP, CFI
EAA Flight Advisor
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA
 
You mean that I can fly through a hot MOA without talking to anyone if I want to? I can fly right through it legally?

Yeah.

I went to a seminar at Oshkosh where a former military guy talked about all this. His advice was don't do it. Don't even do it after talking to someone. He the military guys, even if they know you're in there, are much more into whatever mission they are flying than looking out for you. They've got ejection seats...
 
As an interesting aside...several years ago, returning from Reno through the MOAs in the Owens Valley, and with flight following, the controller called traffic at our 6 o'clock, an A-4. We said "hey, how about a flyby?" She said she could ask, and next thing we knew, I had an A-4 flying formation off my left wing (I think he had everything out in the breeze to go slow enough to do that!)! He then accelerated, pulled in front, up and over and was gone...we told the controller we'd buy her a drink as thanks for that, which we did (and my buddy ended up dating her for a few years!).

Several years later, another group of friends was returning from Reno, same area, and had an F-22 pass overhead...they got some nice pictures.

MOAs can be interesting places...just be careful, and do try to get flight following, even if it's not required.
 
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Whenever a MOA is being used, nonparticipating IFR traffic may be cleared through a MOA if IFR separation can be provided by ATC. Otherwise, ATC will reroute or restrict nonparticipating IFR traffic.


So, does the above apply to folks on VFR flight following as well? Im still a little unclear on what communications I should expect from ATC if I am on flight following as I approach a hot MOA. It would appear from earlier responses that it could range from no communications at all to specific instructions on what course deviations to make, correct?

erich
 
My experience in MOAs in S. Georgia

When on VFR flight following and approaching an active MOA, ATC sometimes tells me that the MOA is active prior to entering it, but usually doesn't except when there is military traffic nearby. That communication is something like "Bulldog A is active". ATC is on the phone with the military controller to coordinate traffic when necessary. ATC will provide traffic advisories to me when traffic is a factor (same as flight following outside of an MOA), but the warnings are usually something like "A-10s, twelve o'clock 15 miles" so much further distances than normal advisories.

When on VFR flight following and approaching a non-active MOA, I don't hear anything special from ATC.

A clearance is not necessary to enter an MOA, regardless of whether or not you are on flight following.

Bill Swatling
RV-7 fuselage
 
Interesting topic. As a former USAF fighter pilot, I spent 22 years operating in all types of airspace; and aside from combat, MOAs were always the most interesting.

Before you stick your nose into a MOA under VFR, you should consider two things: Does the military traffic know you're there? Do you know what traffic is operating in the MOA? Most military traffic will operate on UHF, so you'll have to first query the controlling center or TRACON/RAPCON to figure out if the airspace is hot. If it's cold and scheduled to remain so for the duration of your transit, you have no issues. If it's hot, you really need to decide if you want to risk a possible mid-air or cause the military training to stop.

If the military aircraft are advised of your presence (they are operating under IFR), and you are a factor, they will have to knock things off until you're clear of the airspace (to the detriment of their training). Worse, if they don't know that you're there (ATC's only obligation is to keep the IFR military aircraft clear of IFR and KNOWN VFR traffic), you run the disinct risk of being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Most MOAs have a vertical structure that will allow you to transit the airspace below the floor or at some intermediate santuary altitude. If not, a call to center on the local sector frequency can help you determine status. Another technique is to file IFR if you're able/equipped--you'll automatically be routed around hot airspace.

Cheers,

Vac

Mike Vaccaro
RV-4
 
Its

Kinda fun to see F16's flying underneath you..I always get VFR flught following thru MOA's.

One time I have a cotroller vector me thru an MOA IFR..He had me at 14k so I'm not sure if this was above the MOA or not.

Frank
 
...As mentioned you can fly through them even if hot without a clearance, however I don't deem it the polite or safe thing to do. You may very well interrupt a military training exercise and they may have to knock it off until you are clear of the airspace. I prefer not to waste taxpayer dollars by having airmen flying fighters and helos around twiddling their thumbs and waiting for me to exit the area, so I always call and ask if it's hot...

It's apparent that we don't share the same opinion, which is just fine...

A MOA is not the military's "playground"... It is an area of increased military activity, yes, but that in no way relieves them from abiding by the same "see and avoid" principles that all VFR traffic adheres to. If they want/need to remain clear of us in our little "bugsmasher" airplanes, they go to a restricted area. If it was in fact the "free for all" that some make it out to be, we would not be allowed in the mix. And yes, (some) have ejection seats, but considering even a small bird will take down a military jet, I'm pretty sure they have as much to lose as we do. If a jet jock thinks differently, he should be flying a desk somewhere.

Bottom line: In a MOA, just like anywhere else, heads up and eyes open.
 
Wow, the answers are all over the board. I have worked for the FAA for 20 years and have extensive controller knowledge of MOA's and restricted areas.

I personally will not work VFR aircraft through an active MOA. I will advise you of the active MOA and give you the altitudes in use, then if you elect to fly through it you are on your own. Radar service terminated, squak VFR, good luck!!! The MOA's that I work have a mix of aircraft mostly fighter types. When the military enters the MOA they are IFR and request permission to enter. When I give them permission I will block the airspace and altitude limits that they either request or I can approve. When the fighters go in I terminate their radar and have them squak standby. This eliminates the safety alert warning beep that will go off all day long. When they are finished they call me back level at a certain altitude and I identify them and issue an IFR clearance out of the MOA. I can not issue traffic due to the high speeds and extreme manuevers that happen while they are playing war games. If you are in a "cold " moa and IFR, and the military wants the airspace,I will restrict the military from your altitude until you are clear, then give it all to them. If you are VFR in a "cold" moa, and the military wants in, I will give them the moa and tell them where you are and at what altitude. Usually the military will restrict themselves until you are clear.

If we are talking restricted areas, as long as you have flight following, either VFR or IFR, the controller will keep you clear of the area. They will tell you if it is hot and either ask you to remain clear (VFR) or give vectors or a new route (IFR) around the restricted area. Of course, if you are VFR on your own and go through a hot restricted area, I will track you and report you to the Flight Standards District Office (FSDO). Sometimes we have the ability to shut down a firing range when we see a VFR approaching, but once again---GOOD LUCK!!!!:eek:
 
...that in no way relieves them from abiding by the same "see and avoid" principles that all VFR traffic adheres to... In a MOA, just like anywhere else, heads up and eyes open.

You're right, of course, but the fact that the military guy might be at fault doesn't help you much when you're dead. Likewise, the fact that he might die if he collides with you doesn't help you much.

The guy at OSH (former military pilot) said that the military guys are focused on their mission - heads down working targeting and other stuff. He said that while they should do a better job of looking out for other planes, the fact is that they don't.

And to top it off - no matter how good a job you do at looking out for them, there is a ton of behind, above and below you where you can't see 'em coming...
 
...The guy at OSH (former military pilot) said that the military guys are focused on their mission - heads down working targeting and other stuff. He said that while they should do a better job of looking out for other planes, the fact is that they don't...

I've heard the same thing, and it's really sad. That's just an excuse for some poor aviating, that's all. Their job is to drop bombs AND not have a midair... not one or the other.

Anyway, my take on MOA's is that yes, they're a bit higher risk, but not something to be afraid of. After all, there are FAR more dangerous areas of airspace that we operate out of every day - they're called uncontrolled airports. Just how many midairs happen within sight of an airport vs. a MOA?

As always, heads up...
 
No radio required in MOA

Yes, you can legally fly all day in an MOA without a radio. Is it wise to fly anywhere now a days without a radio, NO. In my area Ft. Campbell controls the Class D airspace around CKV and you must have a radio and talk to them there, but not in the MOA.

http://skyvector.com/#53-21-3-3506-3225
 
I personally will not work VFR aircraft through an active MOA. I will advise you of the active MOA and give you the altitudes in use, then if you elect to fly through it you are on your own. Radar service terminated, squak VFR, good luck!!!

If we are talking restricted areas, as long as you have flight following, either VFR or IFR, the controller will keep you clear of the area. They will tell you if it is hot and either ask you to remain clear (VFR) or give vectors or a new route (IFR) around the restricted area.

Good info. Looks like I should expect a brief conversation with ATC for both a hot MOA and a restricted area under VFR flight following.

thanks
erich
 
Interesting MOA experience...

...I had once.

I was IFR at I believe 7000 in VMC with typical summer buildups flying from GA (I think) to Northern VA. I was in and out of clouds and was requesting minor deviations to avoid the buildups as much as possible.

Here I am over southern VA within the confines of the Farmville MOA (playground for ACC flights out of Langley) and up pop a flight of 4 F-15's I'd say less that 1/4 mile from me. Nothing from center. NADA. I ask, " Ah, Washington Center, you working that flight of F-15s that just climbed through my altitude....?".

Long pause....

Center: "I think another controller had them...".

Yeah, right.

So even on an IFR flight plan you still might be toast.

And the "formation" the flight as flying looked like four drunk white guys trying to break dance. But nobody died and all was well.

I just never felt the same way about MOAs and have become a fan of Naval Aviation ever since.
 
Questions for those in the know...

I recall reading about the incident in AZ last year (I think) where a civilian aircraft flying through a MOA chose to take evasive action when his TCAS indicated an aircraft (turned out to be a military fighter) closing on his position at high speed. (There was quite a stink about the incident, and the military pilot was reprimanded by his commander - others with better memory may correct me if I'm wrong on this detail.) Anyway, in the article I was reading it mention that the miliary aircraft operating in MOAs have TCAS-type avionics onboard with superior range compared to civilian TCAS systems, and as a result they get active alerts to civilian aircraft within range of their systems. My first question...is this true? If it is true, are these systems on most or all military aircraft operating in MOAs?

Even if true, I am not implying that this capability should in any way limit or reduce the caution and/or diligence required by civilian pilots flying into active MOAs. I'm simply curious to know how those "fast movers" might be equipped.
 
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...Anyway, in the article I was reading it mention that the miliary aircraft operating in MOAs have active TCAS-type avionics onboard with superior range compared to civilian TCAS systems, and as a result they get active alerts to civilian aircraft within range of their systems...
I would certainly hope so, although I have no knowledge at all of the actual equipment on board.

Isn't that what we taxpayers have paid the billions for, so our fighters can detect and track multiple other aircraft at the maximum possible range? Our low-tech airplanes wouldn't seem to pose much of a challenge.

One might say, well that isn't the type aircraft they are looking for, which would make me wonder if the enemy shouldn't buy a bunch of RV-8s.
 
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I recall reading about the incident in AZ last year (I think) where a civilian aircraft flying through a MOA chose to take evasive action when his TCAS indicated an aircraft (turned out to be a military fighter) closing on his position at high speed. (There was quite a stink about the incident, and the the military pilot was reprimanded by his commander - others with better memory may correct me if I'm wrong on this detail.)
Sounds like the March 2008 PC-12 / F-16 incident. PC-12 was transiting a hot MOA VFR, supposedly with flight following. TCAS went off and provided a RA, which the PC-12 followed. Supposedly, the F-16 continued to close and the PC-12 kept manuvering to try and avoid a midair. The F-16 formed up on the PC-12 ?in order to contact the civilian pilot and educate him about the risks of transiting an active MOA?, according to AvWeb. USAF's version contrasts with this, although it supposedly has not made any gun camera footage available.

A Beech Premier I also took evasive action to follow a RA in the same MOA that day and declared an emergency so it could enter Class A airspace to comply with the RA. There's video of the Center radar for the Premier's intercept at http://flash.aopa.org/video/F16intercept.wmv

Avid readers of the FARs will recall that formation flight requires prior coordination with the PICs.

The bottom line for me anyway is that hot MOAs are good places to avoid. I have no doubt that I would come out on the loosing end of a midair or wake turbulence encounter with a fighter. There's not much arguing you can do from the grave.

TODR
 
I just asked ...

Thanks for the good info. Like I said, I'm working throught some radio transmission issues. I have no qualms about contacting ATC prior to entering an MOA, it's just hit-or-miss right now.

The MOAs that I deal with are mostly cold. Grissom AFB is now a reserve base and the only things that routinely fly in and out of there are KC-135s and the occasional A-10. Not much activity.
 
I use flight following. Restricted area status can be checked in flight. MOAs I usually go through. I have been handed off to the MOA controller and been "advised" by civil Center that I am entering a hot MOA.

Improve communications within a MOA so we can play nicely.
 
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OK, bonehead questions here:

(1)If one is on VFR flight following and the flight path will take you over an MOA, what type of interaction should be expected with the controller as the MOA is approached?

(2) Same question as above for a restricted area

thanks

erich

Since you said "over an MOA" and restricted area and not in one, no need to contact anyone for either.
 
A Beech Premier I also took evasive action to follow a RA in the same MOA that day and declared an emergency so it could enter Class A airspace to comply with the RA. There's video of the Center radar for the Premier's intercept at http://flash.aopa.org/video/F16intercept.wmv

Those are a couple of pissed-off pilots, and from that tape, can't say as I blame them.

I, for one, don't like the attitude that seems to be in evidence about "educating the pilot about the risks". The military does not "own" those airspaces, and out here in the west, some of the MOAs cover huge tracts of land. Are we supposed to avoid them all? I hardly think so.

Good airmanship, by everyone out there including the hotshot jet jockeys, and good communications should be sufficient. Harassing pilots flying legally and safely to make some Big ******** point is unnecessary.
 
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The F-16 formed up on the PC-12 “in order to contact the civilian pilot and educate him about the risks of transiting an active MOA”

Some animals are more equal than others.
 
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Request...

I've heard the same thing, and it's really sad. That's just an excuse for some poor aviating, that's all. Their job is to drop bombs AND not have a midair... not one or the other.

Anyway, my take on MOA's is that yes, they're a bit higher risk, but not something to be afraid of. After all, there are FAR more dangerous areas of airspace that we operate out of every day - they're called uncontrolled airports. Just how many midairs happen within sight of an airport vs. a MOA?

As always, heads up...

As background, I am a military pilot and this is only my personal opinion.

You make a very good point about more midairs happening in the traffic pattern than in MOAs. However, saying "they are not something to be afraid of" is a pretty bold statement. Like most things in aviation "It depends..." A better statement is that MOAs are something to respect and it helps to be a good neighbor.

When I fly civilian I don't go through an active MOA unless going around it would add about twenty minutes or more to my flight. When I fly under or over the shelf of a MOA, I will not get within about 2000 feet of the floor or 1000 feet of the ceiling. (I have been out the bottom of the MOA straight down on more than one occasion...) Some other advice I will pass is to stay well away from any MOA near a pilot training base. The TCAS works, but only if the solo student pilot has enough SA to use it... I will not bet my life on the Air Force's youngest Lieutenant.

I treat a MOA with respect because although as pilots we are supposed to be constantly clearing our flight path, the reality is something different. When the workload in a military cockpit goes up, most likely the flight lead is becoming more and more heads down. Our wingman are supposed to be providing visual lookout, but they are the wingman for a reason. Most likely they are the youngest, most inexperienced people in the squadron. If you fly through my holding area and you want to bet your life on my youngest Lieutenant, than good luck to you.

When/if I ever fly through a MOA, I do a couple of things:

First, please, please, please talk to the controlling agency and fly the proper VFR hemispheric altitude. The worst thing I can hear during a scenario is "You have VFR traffic 8 thousand, 5 miles south of your position eastbound unverified". If you are headed towards me, I have to stop the scenario set up some form of deconfliction and focus all of my attention on finding you visually (and confirm that you are not a factor) if you are going to be a factor I will have to wait you out. When I wait you out, it could mean that up to a day and a half of preparation, a lot of gas, and a lot of maintenance hours is all for nothing.

Second, if you decide to fly through a MOA, fly a straight line and remain predictable. Again tell the controlling agency your altitude, intentions, route of flight, and any other information that will help the military pilots stay out of your way or work around you. Again, any time I have to spend looking for you is time that is not spent training.

Finally, please don't fly through a MOA just because you can. If I had a restricted area to train in I would not be in a MOA. If you are going to cross through a MOA, please be a good neighbor about it.

During a training mission, I have a lot more stuff going on in my cockpit than you do. (The only people I cannot say that to might be Pierre or any of the other crop dusters out there; those guys have a set of stones...)

I look outside to the best of my ability, but even I can get task saturated. I am not sure if task saturation is a sign of "poor aviating", but it is a reality.

Blue Skies!
 
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Obviously the guys that think they can do an impromptu intercept need to get a formal reprimand and learn a little about flight discipline and the FARs.

mdredmond said:
...The guy at OSH (former military pilot) said that the military guys are focused on their mission - heads down working targeting and other stuff. He said that while they should do a better job of looking out for other planes, the fact is that they don't...

I've heard the same thing, and it's really sad. That's just an excuse for some poor aviating, that's all. Their job is to drop bombs AND not have a midair... not one or the other.

How much fighter time do you have? I'm not a fighter pilot, but I do have a bit of appreciation for their workload. Think about the physics involved:

600+ knot closure for a head on mid air. With 3 mile vis (don't forget the 250 KIAS below 10,000 doesn't apply in MOAs) that's 18 seconds between the first opportunity to see each other and the midair. Consider how difficult it is to see an RV in those conditions, and the amount of sky that needs to be scanned. How much time is reasonable for "heads down"? How much time do you spend "heads down"? I've had occasions where I was flying a Cessna, and looking for another Cessna that I heard on the CTAF, and we didn't spot him until we were inside a mile of each other. I knew where to look, and we only had about 200 knots of closure. The reason they created MOAs was to reduce the risk of midairs and give the military the ability to train. I'm not saying you shouldn't fly in a MOA, just be smart about it, think about the risks, and share the responsibility for deconfliction.

WhiskeyMike said:
in the article I was reading it mention that the military aircraft operating in MOAs have TCAS-type avionics onboard with superior range compared to civilian TCAS systems, and as a result they get active alerts to civilian aircraft within range of their systems. My first question...is this true? If it is true, are these systems on most or all military aircraft operating in MOAs?

I can't tell you what the capability of our fighters is but not all aircraft have air to air radar or TCAS. Watch out around pilot training bases, most trainers have neither and the instructors have their hands full just keeping their students from killing them. A friend of mine was a UPT (Undergraduate Pilot Training) instructor and had a mid air with a crop duster, he said they saw the airplane about a second before it took one of their wings off (low wing aircraft, and a crop duster hit them from below). If you?re wondering what a UPT base looks like, look for a base with a 180 degree ring of MOAs.

rbibb said:
And the "formation" the flight as flying looked like four drunk white guys trying to break dance?and have become a fan of Naval Aviation ever since.

A little off topic, but I wouldn?t expect to see some sort of Blue Angels fingertip in a tactical formation.
 
Their job is to drop bombs AND not have a midair... not one or the other.

Their job is to become proficient in what they do so that when they risk their life to protect ours they are proficient and have an improved chance of survival.

You can bust on through a MOA like you own the sky but lets show them some respect by talking to the controlling agency, giving them a wide berth when active and realizing they are high performance aircraft whos pilots probably are super focused on things other than GA traffic.

MOAs are a PITA to deal with but they are a necessary evil and we owe our military pilots the loyalty and respect they deserve which can be shown by dealing with MOAs in a safe and prudent fashion.

Your life will not be significantly altered because you had to look up a frequency and make a readio call, or even spend an extra 10 minutes going around one.
 
Their job is to drop bombs AND not have a midair... not one or the other.
I had the chance to take two hops in the F-16 when I was enlisted for winning a couple of weapons load competitions. I was working on my PPL at the time and found the aircraft amazingly easy to control all the way up till we started the ground attack and air combat phase of the flight. If you have never experienced it you just can't believe how wrong that comment is. Those are two flights I will never forget. They kicked my butt.
 
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...You can bust on through a MOA like you own the sky but lets show them some respect by talking to the controlling agency, giving them a wide berth when active and realizing they are high performance aircraft whos pilots probably are super focused on things other than GA traffic...


First off, my uncharted airport is within a MOA, so I "bust on through like I own it" every time I fly. Second, I am perfectly willing to share the airspace with those of our military, but I expect them to follow the rules, just as I'm expected to follow the rules.

The passion in this thread is good... It is my fervent hope that the military pilots on this board run back to their squadron and tell all their buddies that the next time they are in a MOA, hot or otherwise, that they should expect me or some other GA aircraft to be right square in the middle of it, as is our right. Maybe they'll be looking around more if they think some yahoo in a bugsmasher is about to hit them.
 
My, this conversation is heating up. The reason I acted surprised that I can fly through an MOA without calling anyone is because I was erroneously under the impression that we HAD to.

The reason that it is germane to my situation is because I *think* I'm having some radio reception issues. Sometimes I have great reception and people hear me, other times I'm ignored. I'm still working on tracking down the problem(s).

In the meantime, my Phase I flight corridor is bisected by 2 MOAs. If I divert around them, I'm out of my allowed airspace. If I go over them, I'm higher than I should be while breaking in my engine. Because the MOAs are near a former active USAF base (which is now a reserve base) that housed mostly KC-135s and A-10s, it's not used as much these days, so it's not like I'd be dodging gaggles of F-16s.

So, it's not that I don't WANT to talk to them, but if I don't get an answer from the tower, it's nice to know that my temporary restricted airspace isn't essentially cut in half.
 
Time to move on.

Well, the original question has been answered repeatedly.

After 3 posts had to be removed for insulting remarks, well--

This discussion has deteriorated to the point of no return.
 
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