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Other incident at OSH...

If you mean the White one ~1400 Sunday

I know all about it, since I was flying her.

Did not flip. "Just" collapsed nose gear and prop strike.

Got the word from the insurance company that all the repairs are approved so I should be going back to Oshkosh in about 6-8 weeks to pick her up.
 
I know all about it, since I was flying her.

Did not flip. "Just" collapsed nose gear and prop strike.

Got the word from the insurance company that all the repairs are approved so I should be going back to Oshkosh in about 6-8 weeks to pick her up.

Any insight on what caused the nose gear to collapse?
 
How it happened

So... I was cleared to 36R and instructed to land long (since I would have to taxi full length to get across to parking)

There was about a 15-20 kt direct cross wind, so all the tail wheel guys were keeping 27 very busy.

I was pretty close to max weight and with the camping equipment the CG was fairly aft (but within limits)

I got too slow, flaired too high, and dropped harder than normal on the mains, bounced, and nosed over. Not sure if the gear failed first or the prop struck first but they clearly both happened.

Not a scratch on me or my passenger. So... it could have been much worse.
 
Rob was it a stock set up or did you have any of the AntiSplat Aero stuff installed?
 
Stock setup.

I only mentioned that 27 was slammed as a data point. I accepted 36R.

Among lessons learned: 1) I'll ship my gear to the show and 2) If the winds favor another runway as they did that day, I'll go back around ask for the other one.

Most of my practice leading up the trip was keeping the 90kts, 1800ft, and 1/2mi spacing going. Should have also practiced landings with the extra weight too.
 
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Thanks very much for the report Rob! We all learn (unfortuantely) by other's bad fortune, and I will never criticize someone for openly sharing the lessons they learned. Very good point you just made about practicing the "up and away" stuff and not thinking about the landing at aft CG - and..... the CG moves aft with fuel burn, so it gets worse as the flight goes on. A "wow, that was different!" take-off can be followed by a "look out!!" landing if you use most of the fuel.
 
Yep!

Rob, is very accurate on his assessment. I was sitting there watching and yelling "power!". I wish I had keyed my handheld radio, but things happened so fast. I had a perfect 90 degree view and it looked like he got behind the power curve. It was a perfect demonstration, unfortunately. Once the nose hit and bounced so hard I was fairly certain it got the prop and was glad Rob didn't add power to go around.
Glad no one was hurt.

Vic
 
Rob, is very accurate on his assessment. I was sitting there watching and yelling "power!". I wish I had keyed my handheld radio, but things happened so fast. I had a perfect 90 degree view and it looked like he got behind the power curve. It was a perfect demonstration, unfortunately.

Vic

At heavy weights and low airspeed our low aspect ratio airplanes can bleed energy quickly. Something to always keep in mind.
 
Hi Rob, I am curious if you had AOA on this aircraft. This is the type of setup where AOA perhaps could have led to a different outcome. When I am heavy the AOA is a great cross check for approach speed. I have a tailwheel 6 but it is in fact a different beast with a aft CG.
George
 
There is an LRI installed.

Your point that an AOA or LRI would pre-warn is well taken.

Trust me, I've been through the incident in my mind more times than I've recounted it aloud.

No single thing "caused" it, except of course the PIC.

You're all welcome to go to www.robolivier.com/n1cx to see pre-incident photos.
 
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Again Rob, thanks so much for your willingness to share what happened. My reaction is, "There, but for the grace of God, go I". I too was very surprised the first time I landed with a plane full of gear after a long x-country. ... That burned off fuel made the flare process quite a shock. Luckily, I did not have the added factors that Make OSH such a challenge.
 
Rob,
Like Vic, I too watch in horror as I was on the flight line as a volunteer

The fellow next to me had a telephoto lens and watch you get out of the plane. After the second bounce when the plane finally came to rest it almost looked like she was going over from where we were but settled on the nose and gear

The poor fellow in the Malibu faired much worst... Anita and I saw it too.
 
Stock setup.

I only mentioned that 27 was slammed as a data point. I accepted 36R.

Among lessons learned: 1) I'll ship my gear to the show and 2) If the winds favor another runway as they did that day, I'll go back around ask for the other one.

Most of my practice leading up the trip was keeping the 90kts, 1800ft, and 1/2mi spacing going. Should have also practiced landings with the extra weight too.

Thanks for the report, Rob.

Sometimes runway perspective is a factor. Flaring high on wide runways (coming off of narrow operations) is a problem if not specifically thinking about the situation.

I once dropped a Cozy in so hard, it spread the gear to where the brake service fittings were ground off by runway contact. I thought the airplane was junk after that landing but a thorough inspection revealed no serious damage other than the brake fittings and farings cracked.

Mostly it was ego damage . :)
 
Thanks for sharing.

It really sucks that this happened to you and your plane, however by openly and honestly sharing what happened there is a very good chance that you have saved someone else from possibly a much worse outcome!

-Dan
 
Boy, I feel you, Rob

I too was slightly over gross and tail heavy with all my stuff and it was a concern for sure.

I was fortunate that I only had to fly over from South St. Paul so I only burned about 12 gallons along the way. But, for sure, even that small amount created a different scenario for me and when I landed I commented to my passenger that I'd be definitely filling up for the flight home (even at Basler prices) to try to counteract that a bit. Plus I wanted a case of that $55 Phillips oil to add to the flight home, but, alas, I didn't want to take a chance on the weight addition in an aft setting (I subsequently left a lot of gear out on the second flight over later in the week and grabbed a case).

With fuel tanks in this situation, the flying characteristics are much different than they would be an hour later, so I wouldn't beat yourself up too much about not practicing with a loaded plane. You'd have to keep removing fuel.

You did the best you could with the situation you had. It happens. We've all been there in one fashion or another.

You can fly my plane anytime, as far as I'm concerned.

By the way, I HATE 36R.
 
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So sorry

Rob,
Sorry to hear this happened to you and your plane. Everyone makes mistakes, everyone. We thank you for sharing so that we can learn from it. Very happy to hear that you and your passenger were not harmed in any way. This is why you have insurance..... :D
 
I usually add 5 knots on final when at higher gross weights and C.G.'s toward the back of the envelope.

I still had 4 crappy landings out of 6 on my OshKosh adventure with 1 go-around. Thanks for sharing.
 
Thank you for sharing, this is good info, and sorry some cant play nice. So as mentioned above, do others agree that while low on fuel and aft heavy, a 5 to 10 Kt increase on final would help, or would you lose too much elevator authority when flaring?
 
Thank you for sharing, this is good info, and sorry some cant play nice. So as mentioned above, do others agree that while low on fuel and aft heavy, a 5 to 10 Kt increase on final would help, or would you lose too much elevator authority when flaring?

I'm not sure I see how.

This seems to be an issue of pitch, not power. I suppose it depends on how far out of the envelope you are. I generally find that trim when deploying flaps is unnecessary in my Oshkosh profile. to me, it's simply a matter of being aware of the situation (which will also reveal itself in the first 50 feet once you add power on takeoff... or when you find yourself dialing in nose down trim en route).
 
+1 on bleeding speed with that stubby wing. Landing long is a trap. We are all used to being in the flare at that height and bleeding speed way on the back side of the power curve. To fly down the runway without doing that you need to get the nose way down and fly faster and this is unnatural. You are not the first to get caught. I am glad you are ok and insured.
 
I also appreciate the candor regarding your incident. By putting this out there you may prevent the same thing or worse from happening to another pilot, and that's what it's all about.

In the Military this attitude seems to vary a bit service to service but it's important to discuss mishaps to improve the safety. Thanks again.

One thing I noted in the transition was how quickly this low aspect wing bleeds speed once the AoA increases in the flare and how different my -6 lands at the back of the CG envelope. I still have some poor landings in that condition if I forget... I mostly fly it solo and the difference is substantial.
 
Thanks!

I really appreciate this open conversation. I was certainly aware of how my RV7a really starts to sink on the back side of the power curve. I have not experienced the issue with an aft CG. Our plane is naturally nose heavy so this has not been an issue. But as I load it more and go on longer legs this is great information to have.

So sorry for the incident and the damage to your plane, but glad you are OK. Thanks again for sharing this.
 
Rob, don't feel bad. Everybody who flies much has had at least one landing that was followed by a nonchalant walk-around inspection, if you get my drift.
 
Once again, thank you to all who see this as an experience to learn from. I know I learned A LOT from it! (not only about flying)

Probably a separate thread, but for those who may know, I'll have a different prop coming out of the shop. Does that move me back to phase I or is it a repair? The prop will be different because Bernie Wanarke doesn't make props anymore.
 
Props

Hi Rob. Sorry to hear about your misshap. I've had a couple of landings in my 6A that could easily have resulted in a collapsed nose gear. Would love to hear about the new prop you decide on and how it performs versus the old prop. John
 
The prop will be different because Bernie Wanarke doesn't make props anymore.

Rob, while Bernie is no longer with us but if you liked his prop , Frank of Performance Propellers makes a similar prop as he purchased the business from Bernie's son-in-law.
 
Doesn't do any good to just keep it to yourself!

Thanks for sharing Rob...Look how many people you've helped and that's not counting the hundreds, maybe thousands, who have read this thread but not responded. A guy told me at OSH that when we first start flying we have two bags--one called experience and one called luck. The objective is to get the experience bag full before the other bag runs out.
So glad you weren't hurt.
 
Thanks Rob

Thanks Rob for having the personal courage to put your experience out there. You exemplify the best in a positive safety culture. Many will learn from your event and you can rest easy at night knowing that, while it may have been painful for you, you've given back to others and they will hopefully avoid the same pain thanks to you.
 
Rob

Thanks for the reminders.

I live 15 miles north of OSH. If you need anyone to stop into check on things or get anything done for you, PM me.

Who is doing the repair?
 
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