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Runway Finder Shutting Down

petehowell

petehowell

Well Known Member
Just saw this note on one of my favorite and most useful websites.

Dave Parsons is an RV builder/owner and based on my experience with him, a great guy. I will really miss the site.
 
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That is a real shame. FlightPrep is definitely a company I will not spend one cent supporting.
 
So Sad

I used Runwayfinder on a daily bases for the last several years and found it to be one of the best quick references. My flight planning revolves around Runwayfinder and Weathermiester, supporting both due to their RV connection and their quality websites.
 
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I saw this last night while using Airnav to plan a trip, like many others I used the chart feature often and will miss it.

Flightprep is definately on my list of companies to NEVER do business with :mad:
 
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Flight Prep

So does this mean all on-line charts are now out of business unless they pay "protection" to FlightPrep? Where are those hackers when we need em?
 
Yep, this stuff happens all the time. Whether or not any infringement has indeed happened, the "small guys" can't afford to fight off the big guy's lawyers.

Sometimes the little guys do attack back and win, but they end up risking their entire worth to do it.

Too bad.
 
I almost NEVER say this, but because I hate this kind of thing so much, I will never let FlightPrep get a dime of my money. If I had a subscription, I would demand a refund. This is a business practice that is hurting aviation safety, and I will never support that.

The idea of this patent is absurd - you might as well patent "lift"....

Paul
 
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I know Dave may not respond to this thread out of prudence, but I hope it sheds some light on the sort of BS that we software guys go through all the time. The USPTO (US Patent and Trademark office) is completely out of control and they are killing software development and innovation in the country. The idea of a patent is to protect a non-trivial invention and to create a repository of knowledge. Simply writing code should not meet this criteria, but unfortunately the USPTO will rubber-stamp just about anything.

Dave wrote every line of his code. Flightprep had nothing to do with it. Flightprep didn't "invent" putting aeronautical charts on-line. See the absurdness of their argument?

I have been working professionally in software for 12 years and I have been on the defense in 6 different IP lawsuits -- all of which were ridiculous. In fact, I am currently involved in one that I'm not allowed to discuss.

If you want to really get angry, just google for "patent trolls". These are companies (staffed almost entirely by attorneys) that do nothing but purchase overly vague software patents and enforce them against people that are actually productive.

There is a big difference between patents in the software world and patents in the physical world. I am not a lawyer, but allow me to me explain:

Let's say you invent a machine that takes in a log and spits out a 2x4 piece of lumber and you patent it. The patent will have to explain how it works internally in detail. If I invent a machine that does the same thing (converting a log to a 2x4) but I do it in a different way, I can build and sell it without infringing your patent.

Software patents work differently. A software patent will be granted on very vague, overarching concepts. The patent will basically specify the "inputs" (the log) and "outputs" (the 2x4) of a program and that will be patented. So I can't write another program that does the same thing, even if it's done differently internally.

Software patents should be illegal (as they are in Europe). Plain and simple.
 
In the Internet age, we no longer have to sit back and let patent troll's like Flight Prep get away with this. I posted a "I'll never do business with you" comment on their Twitter, YouTube, and Facebook page. I also wrote their sales department telling them the same thing. Since all they care about is $$$, maybe this will make them think twice in the future.
 
I sent them an email, too. I told them they'll never see a dime from me. I also reminded them that aviation is a tight-knit community and if they have to rely on lawyers and the legal system to gain a competitive advantage, they'll never survive.

Probably wasting my breath, but the inappropriate use of lawyers and the legal system, in general, really irks me.
 
Like so many others, I've come to appreciate RunwayFinder. I left my thoughts on their Facebook page - figured they wouldn't care about an e-mail but something a little more public would perhaps deliver the point better.
 
I sent an email this morning as well. FlightPrep (never used them in the first place) will never see my money.:mad:
 
I did the same.

It's sad how innovation is killed. Every app out there that display charts probably have, or will receive a letter. Is ForeFlight the next to fight or fold?

I hope someone finds prior art, fights, and gets this patent invalidated.
 
HATE lawyers

To FlightPrep: You know what...
YOU WILL NEVER GET A DIME OF MINE AND THANKS TO THE WORD OF THE INTERNET, THIS EGREGIOUS BEHAVIOR WILL BE KNOWN BY ALL!
MAY YOU SINK IN YOUR GREED!
I find it embarrasing that you reside on the same airfield as Van's!!!!
 
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Charts

Doesn't Flight Prep get the chart info online from the US Govt (us!) for free?

AND...what we should really be doing is trying to figure out how to help Dave Parsons keep his on-line. How can we help? Money?
 
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historical perspective...

This kind of nonsense got a major (predatory) business validation back when Apple engaged in the infamous "look and feel" lawsuits. Everyone knew that Apple couldn't win in the courtroom -- the look and feel was invented by Alan Kay at Xerox PARC and was put in the public domain -- but Apple was quick to the market and sued their competitors Commodore and Atari with the express intent of bankrupting them into oblivion with legal fees. It worked.

Sometimes the bad guys win. And then they come out with good products but make them closed and "protect" them like a rabid pit bull. Then everyone buys them and they become the largest capitalized company in the nation...

For aviation, I think Garmin and Jeppeson might be the closest analogues so far...

I think it says more about the future ambitions of any given company. Some will succeed with those ambitions, most won't.

Jeremy
 
Just send the software code and hosting to China.

I would like to see flight prep pursue legal actions on IP infringement overseas.
 
Wow. This reminds me of the JPI vs. Matronics deal from the late 90s. JPI may have won the battle, but to this day you don't see many RVs with their products in the panel (nor should you ever.) They've just alienated a large chunk of their potential customer base.
 
They are blocking any negative comments. Their blog post is in response to the overwhelming email response and Twitter/Facebook comments.
 
Roger Stenbock has a JD after his name... Nuff said right there. I hope everybody here emails them or better yet, calls. Guess maybe they don't realize they've just ticked off thousands of RV pilots and builders...
 
sprucemoose said:
Wow. This reminds me of the JPI vs. Matronics deal from the late 90s. JPI may have won the battle, but to this day you don't see many RVs with their products in the panel (nor should you ever.) They've just alienated a large chunk of their potential customer base.
Click to expand...

...and their FloScan unit quickly became obsolete as new integrated EMS came on-line.

I bet they didn't even make much profit from the lawsuit.

gil A - JPI free
 
sprucemoose said:
Wow. This reminds me of the JPI vs. Matronics deal from the late 90s. JPI may have won the battle, but to this day you don't see many RVs with their products in the panel (nor should you ever.) They've just alienated a large chunk of their potential customer base.
Click to expand...

Exactly. JPI threatened to sue Matronics because they "owned" the term "scan". Uh huh. Matt had no choice but to cave in to JPI.

To this day, I stop by the JPI booth at Oshkosh every year and remind them that I purposely did NOT buy any JPI stuff for my panel because of their underhanded legal tactics. They just smile and shrug ...
 
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I wonder how long it will be until there is a functionally equivalent software available for free download which lays upon the freely downloadable FAA maps, and only gets the live weather and TFR data over the internet, and performs all the flightplan, weather and TFR assembly and integration stuff locally on the PC/tablet, outside the scope of this patent's claims?
 
JPI

sprucemoose said:
Wow. This reminds me of the JPI vs. Matronics deal from the late 90s. JPI may have won the battle, but to this day you don't see many RVs with their products in the panel (nor should you ever.) They've just alienated a large chunk of their potential customer base.
Click to expand...

I thought exactly the same thing and I feel the same way.
 
Just sent:


j6sjna.jpg
 
Excellent Doug! I sent an email to all of those address's this morning as well.

Very well written. :cool:
 
Thank you Doug for putting thousands of names behind your complaint. I also sent feedback to Flightprep, but it sure helps to have a heavy hitter like you chiming in.
 
Update: Good news...

From RunwayFinder.com's blog http://blog.runwayfinder.com

Update 12/10/2010 2:30pm PST
A preliminary verbal agreement has been reached. Assuming we can work out the details over the next few days, RunwayFinder will remain online. I appreciate all of the messages of support. Sorry if I?m not able to respond to everybody personally. I?ll update this post as things progress.
​
 
DeltaRomeo said:
From RunwayFinder.com's blog http://blog.runwayfinder.com

Update 12/10/2010 2:30pm PST
A preliminary verbal agreement has been reached. Assuming we can work out the details over the next few days, RunwayFinder will remain online. I appreciate all of the messages of support. Sorry if I?m not able to respond to everybody personally. I?ll update this post as things progress.
​
Click to expand...
This is truly good news to have RunwayFinder staying online! WOO WHOO!!

I also sent an email to FlightPlan and am glad that our efforts are showing some results.
 
Great ...

Well, I suppose I should have checked this thread for updates before I hit SEND on my e-mail to Mssrs. Stenbock and Everson ...

"Dear Mr. Stenbock and Mr. Everson:

As I am sure you are well aware by now, word has spread about your lawsuit against Dave Parsons of RunwayFinder.com. I really don't have a dog in this fight, but you do. I have a recently-completed homebuilt aircraft that I dearly love to fly, and flight planning is something that I do with regularity. Things have changed from the days when I last flew regularly, and I've found a plethora of helpful resources online to make the task easier, faster and safer. RunwayFinder.com was one such source.

Many years ago, before I had even planned what equipment was going into my instrument panel, I was active on a builder help list hosted by Matronics, Inc. The owner/manager of the list was supported primarily by donations from us, the users, and it became a vary valuable lifeline for those builders who needed help and advice from other builders. Matronics developed a fuel flow scanner and along came a large company, JPI, demanding that Matronics cease using the word "scan" in the scanner's name and threatened a lawsuit. Matronics, naturally, changed the name because there were no funds available to fight the issue in court.

I don't know anything about software patents and the processes by which one protects intellectual property in that industry, but I do recognize strong-arm tactics when I see them. You are doing the same thing to Mr. Parsons that JPI did to Matronics, no matter how justified you feel you are. Consequently, you should know that I cannot use any of your products or services as long as you pursue this legal action.

You have made a business decision, and I'm sure that nothing I say will alter your course. However, decisions have consequences, and losing the potential business of the entire RV community may indeed be yours.

Sincerely,

Don McNamara
Elkhart, IN"

Oh well ... just another stick in the fire. Maybe a flood of e-mails will have some effect after all. I guess we should all just stay tuned.
 
Here is claim #1 of the patent:

Claim 1 of the patent is below in quotes:

"What is claimed is:

1. A process for generating a flight plan for preflight use by a pilot, comprising: accessing over a computer network from a client computer a Web page having a housekeeping frame and a selected composite travel navigation chart from among plural selected composite travel navigation charts stored at a server computer, each selected composite travel navigation chart including a travel chart merged with travel navigation waypoints, the travel navigation waypoints including radio navigation aids; downloading the Web page with the selected composite travel navigation chart from the server computer to the client computer as a two-dimensional array of map tiles that include up-to-date navigation data and cover an area over which a flight is to be planned; indicating X, Y coordinates of each of a plurality of navigation waypoints on the selected composite travel navigation chart at the client computer; sending the X, Y coordinates of each navigation waypoint to the housekeeping frame of the Web page; and drawing over the selected composite travel navigation chart on the client computer route line segments according to the X, Y coordinates, as instructed by housekeeping frame of the Web page, to generate a flight plan for preflight use by a pilot. "

I believe virtually all of the various on-line planners, including AOPA's for example, could be shown to be prior art in this (I'm not a patent lawyer...). Ever look at Google Earth? I believe I could even make an argument that my Garmin 430 does this, since the data is initially obtained over the internet.

The basic gist of this patent seems to be gathering information from a host computer and organizing it in a way to help with navigation planning on the client's computer.

Patents are very similar to laws - they are subject to challenge in court. Some are valid and involve real invention (like others have written on this thread already), and will stand up to the challenge in court. Many are not.

Will be interesting to follow this.
 
count three more supporters

The ball of bad publicity is still rolling... Two of my friends and I will never give any business to FlightPrep. The info will be reposted on a foreign website as well.
 
legaleze???

Only a lawyer can write an entire paragraph, without a single period, and claim it to be English!!
 
Pete, thanks for posting this and starting the ball rollng! And nice job Doug and others! My e-mail is now in their inbox too!

I noticed that RunwayFinder was working tonight while planning tomorrow's form hops with another VAFer, so hopes are that this gets resolved and the grassroots efforts can put this genie back in the bottle.

I counted the websites I use that link to RF, and the devices in my airplane that are potential targets of just such lawsuits. Big impact, to say the least!

If companies like this are allowed to squeeze and squelch competition in an effort to be the only game in town, we all suffer! I'd be willing to go back to E6Bs and paper charts long enough to boycott unscupulous companies out of existence!

Hopefully they realize the damage that has been done to their reputation, make a concerted effort to make this right, and then never go down this road again.

Win customers by providing a superior product at a fair price, then support it and take care of customers. Don't sue everyone till you're the only show in town (other shows will appear, and we'll go there, thank you very much!)

Thanks for the heads-up!!

Bob
 
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Yikes, even in the small aviation community, you can find someone ready to "p" in the pool. :mad:

We use Runwayfinder ALL THE TIME, it is a wonderful resource.

Here is my stick on the fire:

Sirs

I understand that your company is attacking the site: Runwayfinder.com
using dubious patent claims, as is so common with companies out to
litigate rather than innovate nowadays. I have read your open letter on
your site, and find your argument there unconvincing, to say the least.

The aviation community is small, and bullying behaviour such as this
will be sure to eventually find its way back to you. As the saying goes:
"What goes around, comes around".

Be assured, I will never do business, or support your business in any
way. I imagine that many others will follow suit. News of your actions
has spread far and wide already,


In disgust
J. Steve Cronje
Click to expand...
I agree with others who have suggested to contact the EFF. It may be very helpful.
 
Software patents

Jamie said:
...Software patents should be illegal (as they are in Europe). Plain and simple.
Click to expand...
Totally agree. I've been on both sides of this issue in a previous life, and I am convinced that software patents are a huge drain on the economy, and add no value whatsoever. The big guys strongly encourage their employees to patent every trivial snippet of code in an effort to increase the size of their patent portfolio, simply in order to have some defense in case they are attacked. If the ability to patent software were eliminated, huge numbers of hours could be refocused on productive activity.

BTW, I disagree with the "evil lawyers" comments, they are only playing the game as it is presented. The rules of this particular game need to be changed.
 
Update on aero-news:



FlightPrep Attempts Damage Control
It used to be hard to get the aviation industry to get behind something important... but not-so-much anymore, as the power of the Internet appears to have handed an embattled aviation resource a bit of moral support as they dealt with the threat of legal action from a competitor who received a patent for technologies similar to theirs.

Barely 48 hours ago, RunwayFinder announced that they were shutting their site down because of legal threats from FlightPrep.com over alleged patent infringement. Within a day, RunwayFinder's Dave Parsons published an addendum stating that a compromise appeared to be in the offing and that RunwayFinder had won a reprieve. It didn't end there.

The damage appears to be heavy as far as FlightPrep is concerned. A massive amount of support rallied to the defense of RunwayFinder.com, while the patent holder, 'FlightPrep' attempted to post their defense/rationale on their corporate blog, shortly thereafter... but WITHOUT allowing comments onsite (and judging by comments elsewhere, they probably got tired of the invective... as for the moment, it would be hard to find a more unpopular aero-company than FlightPrep).
 
Vlad said:
The ball of bad publicity is still rolling... Two of my friends and I will never give any business to FlightPrep. The info will be reposted on a foreign website as well.
Click to expand...

FlightPrep and ASA are both owned by Stenbock. ASA has a lot of training stuff and books out on the market.
 
It looks to me like ASA manuals won't be on my shopping list either.

You know, if your market is measured in the millions of people (like Microsoft or Apple),you can afford to tick off a few folks. With a market as small as the aviation world, that is a mistake a company can't afford to make....

Paul
 
What ever happened to doing such a great job at something that everyone wants to come to you. Really, why do you need a patent to keep you in business.

The folks from the Better Business Bureau (Business Bribery Bureau) operate the same way. They want me to pay them hundreds of dollars per year so that they can tell people what a great business I have, when I could just continue to do a great job and let my customers speak for me!

I just downloaded Flight Prep flight planning. It's kind of lame. No charts unless you "subscribe" at $10 a piece per year. Doesn't the FAA publish the charts for free?

P.S. DUAT.COM is free and they have sectional charts. AOPA Flight Planner comes with your membership. EAA has a planner.
 
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AlexPeterson said:
Claim 1 of the patent is below in quotes:

"What is claimed is:

1. A process for generating a flight plan for preflight use by a pilot, comprising: accessing over a computer network from a client computer a Web page having a housekeeping frame and a selected composite travel navigation chart from among plural selected composite travel navigation charts stored at a server computer, each selected composite travel navigation chart including a travel chart merged with travel navigation waypoints, the travel navigation waypoints including radio navigation aids; downloading the Web page with the selected composite travel navigation chart from the server computer to the client computer as a two-dimensional array of map tiles that include up-to-date navigation data and cover an area over which a flight is to be planned; indicating X, Y coordinates of each of a plurality of navigation waypoints on the selected composite travel navigation chart at the client computer; sending the X, Y coordinates of each navigation waypoint to the housekeeping frame of the Web page; and drawing over the selected composite travel navigation chart on the client computer route line segments according to the X, Y coordinates, as instructed by housekeeping frame of the Web page, to generate a flight plan for preflight use by a pilot. "

I believe virtually all of the various on-line planners, including AOPA's for example, could be shown to be prior art in this (I'm not a patent lawyer...). Ever look at Google Earth? I believe I could even make an argument that my Garmin 430 does this, since the data is initially obtained over the internet.

The basic gist of this patent seems to be gathering information from a host computer and organizing it in a way to help with navigation planning on the client's computer.

Patents are very similar to laws - they are subject to challenge in court. Some are valid and involve real invention (like others have written on this thread already), and will stand up to the challenge in court. Many are not.

Will be interesting to follow this.
Click to expand...

If this is what the patent claims, then I suppose Google Maps travel planner also violates the claim. After all, in Goggle Maps I can as for directions from KPVU to KSGU and it will give me a route and distance. Only Google will follow roads and turn at road intersections instead of following straight lines and turning at aviation intersections - not really much different.

It would be a shame if Google Maps had to shut down because they also violate this patent.
 
no 'ta-da' intellect for this patent...

Supporting intellectual patents for emerging technology that becomes self evident afterwards can be a tough call... was the innovation the key to wide discovery or did the idea become broadly obvious as the mass of technology moved forward.

In this case it is pretty clear that there was no 'ta-da' moment... using a digital map sourced from remote servers to plan a route is hardly an innovation, rather it is simply a byproduct of widespread data availability.
 
What's interesting is that Flight Prep is only going after RunwayFinder and possibly SkyVector. I doubt they want to tackle, AOPA/Jeppeson, DUATs, etc.

Seems pretty low down to me.
 
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