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Most affordable way to make RV-6 IFR capable

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britt fincher

Member
My Rv has a D10A, Garmin 396, Icom A200. Very basic. I do not really plan on flying it IFR often, just want to be able to do an approach in case I have to, also would like to be legal for IFR enroute. Would an SL 30 with ILS and CDI be the best/most affordable way to go?

Thanks
 
I am working through the same issues with my 7A..trying to get some basic IFR capability. I think your idea with the SL30 is good. I've thought about that as well. I have a D100 in my airplane and it will display glideslope info. I don't know if a D10 will do any horizontal or vertical displays. If the D10 displays that kind of approach guidance, then you could get away without a separate CDI in your panel. Also, remember you won't have marker beacons with this equipment. I think, although I'm sure it's not legal, you could probably get away with using the 396 for enroute GPS guidance.

Just my thoughts.
 
D10A will do it all

The EFIS screen of the D10A will present both localizer and glideslope info. Check pages 4-3 and 4-4 of the Pilot's User Guide.
 
koupster said:
The EFIS screen of the D10A will present both localizer and glideslope info. Check pages 4-3 and 4-4 of the Pilot's User Guide.
Click to expand...

Just the CDI portion. OP still needs a nav source.

The SL30 will work fine. I've not kept up on their pricing in the used market since Garmin released the new models.

I personally would go with a GTN650, but that clearly doesn't fit with your low cost requirement. There are too many airports that don't have ILS or VOR approaches. You may be able to find a good deal with a used GNS430 or GNS430W.
 
legal vs safe

You understand that all of your flight instruments (apparently) are in the D-10?
That if, for any reason, it quits while you are in IMC, the outcome will most likely not be favorable?
The saying is "avigate-navigate-communicate" in that order. You must be able to fly the plane. I'd look at a back up, battery powered EFIS before worrying about navigation.
That being said, the SL-30 is a good choice. It's ability to bring in a cross fix VOR radial while tracking a primary VOR or LOC makes it superior to every other nav radio out there, even the newer ones.
Note that for most ILS approaches you will not be able to ID the outer marker. IMHO this is not a big deal, and if you have ATC coverage you can sometimes get them to call it for you. It is a big deal if there's no GS and you are doing the localizer only approach. Finally, some ILSs require an ADF (or certified gps), usually for the missed approach. I'd look and see what's available at the home airport, where you'll be most likely to use it.
The 396 is not legal for any IFR use. But for enroute, the "center, how about a vector direct Salt Lake (300 miles away!) on, say, 093 degrees" seems to work much of the time.
 
Clarification: D10A and an SL30 will do it all

My point was that the D10A already has a CDI and Glideslope presentation built in. You wouldn't need a separate CDI.

To paraphrase from the User Guide: When the EFIS-D10A is receiving CDI or glideslope information from a NAV radio, that info can be displayed on the main EFIS display as well as the on the full HSI page.
 
Val Nav2000

I just happen to have one fresh from getting the firmware upgrades to make it fully SL-30 compatible. It has never been installed and comes with harness made by Val. About as close to plug and play as you can get.
 
Thanks for the replies. Does sound like the SL 30 tied into the D10A may be the way to go. Maybe a stratus 2 for back up ADI on my ipad, foreflight. Not planing low IFR. IF ask me, anything less than a twin turbine powered airplane with Cat III b capability, is not safe for low IFR.
 
I would say you've received some good advice...but... If you don't have any other flight instruments other than the D10A, then using that as your CDI and flight instruments is a very poor choice - you remove your flight instruments to view the CDI, which is a terrible combinatuon for IFR in IMC (high or low) of any sort. At a minimum get a 2nd attitude indicator of some sort (D6/1/2/miniGRT).

Just my 2 cents as usual....but I know (or knew) just as many folks who died whilst "high" in the muck as were "low".

That said, the SL30 and D10A are a good foundation, just not usable entirely on their own IMHO.

Cheers,
Stein
 
SteinAir said:
I would say you've received some good advice...but... If you don't have any other flight instruments other than the D10A, then using that as your CDI and flight instruments is a very poor choice - you remove your flight instruments to view the CDI, which is a terrible combinatuon for IFR in IMC (high or low) of any sort. At a minimum get a 2nd attitude indicator of some sort (D6/1/2/miniGRT).

Just my 2 cents as usual....but I know (or knew) just as many folks who died whilst "high" in the muck as were "low".

That said, the SL30 and D10A are a good foundation, just not usable entirely on their own IMHO.

Cheers,
Stein
Click to expand...

VERY good advice. For the above reasons I would seriously consider not using your D10A as your CDI.

koupster said:
My point was that the D10A already has a CDI and Glideslope presentation built in. You wouldn't need a separate CDI.

To paraphrase from the User Guide: When the EFIS-D10A is receiving CDI or glideslope information from a NAV radio, that info can be displayed on the main EFIS display as well as the on the full HSI page.
Click to expand...

But, as Stein has already indicated, if you display the CDI on the D10A you can not display your primary flight instruments. It is either one or the other. A VERY bad situation, to be in IMC without any flight instruments.

YellowJacket RV9 said:
You could look into the Val INS-429 which is an all-in-one unit, http://www.valavionics.com/ins-429.html, about $1800

Chris
Click to expand...

I have a VAL INS-429 and it works very well. An "all-in-one" (VOR, LOC, ILS, MB) IFR unit that can even display external data if you ever want. It will compliment your D10A very well.

:cool:
 
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Sam Staton said:
I just happen to have one fresh from getting the firmware upgrades to make it fully SL-30 compatible. It has never been installed and comes with harness made by Val. About as close to plug and play as you can get.
Click to expand...
What do you want for it?

Holger
 
Reconsider. Since VOR's and ILS's are going out, I'd really consider taking the plunge for an RNAV capable GPS that can shoot LPV approaches, like a good used 430W.

Best,
 
pierre smith said:
Reconsider. Since VOR's and ILS's are going out, I'd really consider taking the plunge for an RNAV capable GPS that can shoot LPV approaches, like a good used 430W.

Best,
Click to expand...

...agree completely. The ready availability of the WAAS GPS technology for instrument flying has simplified and made more precise the whole IFR flying/approach process and reliability. When I am needing to fly an approach to get into an airport, I always choose the WAAS RNAV/GPS approach over an ILS.
 
What about using the SL30 plus a GNS 400W? The 400W is considerably less cost than the 430W so it might make sense if you already have the SL30. That is my situation and the direction I will probably go to enable IFR training.

Can anybody share reasons not to go this route for best bang for the buck if you already have the SL30?
 
Randy said:
What about using the SL30 plus a GNS 400W? The 400W is considerably less cost than the 430W so it might make sense if you already have the SL30. That is my situation and the direction I will probably go to enable IFR training.

Can anybody share reasons not to go this route for best bang for the buck if you already have the SL30?
Click to expand...

The GNS400 is not ADS-B compatible so by 2020 you will have to upgrade ($$$) again.

:cool:
 
koupster said:
To paraphrase from the User Guide: When the EFIS-D10A is receiving CDI or glideslope information from a NAV radio, that info can be displayed on the main EFIS display as well as the on the full HSI page.
Click to expand...
GalinHdz said:
But, as Stein has already indicated, if you display the CDI on the D10A you can not display your primary flight instruments. It is either one or the other. A VERY bad situation, to be in IMC without any flight instruments.
Click to expand...
I have a D10A but only a Garmin GPS feeding it. But I think @koupster is saying that if you have a Nav Radio source, that the CDI or Glideslope can be displayed on the main EFIS display too... ie. alongside your primary flight info. Perhaps someone with a D10A/SL30 setup can confirm.
 
Same situation

I was looking for a cheaper way to be IFR capable also. I was trying to find a used IFR gps. Watching ebay, barnstormers, and sent emails to 21 avionics shops asking for prices of a used or new IFR gps. A couple of the avionics shops told me that, in their opinion, most of the used stuff was too expensive on ebay and I could find a better deal somewhere else. Ended up buying a new 400W from Stein. It was cheaper than the used 400Ws on ebay and about $600-$700 higher than a non-W. It was cheap enough that I called and verified the price because I thought they quoted it wrong. I am still building so I haven't installed it yet. I am also putting a VOR antenna in my wingtip now so I can add that later (probably a VAL). I may not ever use it for real IFR but since I have my instrument rating it would be nice to be able to practice and keep current. Just my 2 cents.

Jimmy
 
Snowflake said:
I have a D10A but only a Garmin GPS feeding it. But I think @koupster is saying that if you have a Nav Radio source, that the CDI or Glideslope can be displayed on the main EFIS display too... ie. alongside your primary flight info. Perhaps someone with a D10A/SL30 setup can confirm.
Click to expand...

The D100 has this capability, the D10A does not. The D100 has enough screen area to display both sets of data while the D10A doesnt have enough screen area to simultaneously display both sets of data. So with the D10A it is one or the other.

:cool:
 
jbrv7 said:
I was looking for a cheaper way to be IFR capable also. I was trying to find a used IFR gps. Watching ebay, barnstormers, and sent emails to 21 avionics shops asking for prices of a used or new IFR gps. A couple of the avionics shops told me that, in their opinion, most of the used stuff was too expensive on ebay and I could find a better deal somewhere else. Ended up buying a new 400W from Stein. It was cheaper than the used 400Ws on ebay and about $600-$700 higher than a non-W. It was cheap enough that I called and verified the price because I thought they quoted it wrong. I am still building so I haven't installed it yet. I am also putting a VOR antenna in my wingtip now so I can add that later (probably a VAL). I may not ever use it for real IFR but since I have my instrument rating it would be nice to be able to practice and keep current. Just my 2 cents.

Jimmy
Click to expand...
While a 400W is all you legally need to fly ifr, if you ever needed an instrument proficiency check you would be unable to do it in your airplane without the vor.
 
Adding it later

BobTurner said:
While a 400W is all you legally need to fly ifr, if you ever needed an instrument proficiency check you would be unable to do it in your airplane without the vor.
Click to expand...

I was planning on adding a VAL Nav2kr when the extra funds become available. Since the antenna will already be there and it is a remote receiver I won't have to cut a hole in the panel and can just wire it to the GRTs. I have some time to worry about all of that later since I am still building.
 
jbrv7 said:
I was planning on adding a VAL Nav2kr when the extra funds become available. Since the antenna will already be there and it is a remote receiver I won't have to cut a hole in the panel and can just wire it to the GRTs. I have some time to worry about all of that later since I am still building.
Click to expand...

The honest truth is that as long as the 400W works it's hard to imagine needing two VORs; plus the Val is a lot cheaper than an SL-30. But, on the GRT HX split screen display with HSI, it's pretty neat to see both nav signals from the SL-30 (#2 vor is shown as an RMI needle).
 
Slightly off topic here but with no VOR receiver is there a problem contacting FSS where they list a receive only freq and expect you to listen to the VOR freq? It's been a while since I've been an active flyer, maybe that's an infrequent problem these days?
 
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I believe the VAL has an audio output. Not sure if you can adjust the volume with a remote mount, but certainly it has one. I think listening to morse code ID is still supposed to be done. (AIM - outdated - says to listen even if your box has a decoded display!)

Edit: I see, you meant if you have no VOR receiver at all? Then you're out of luck. But often there's a dedicated com frequency available. Although that's not what they're there for, in a pinch I suspect Flight Watch would open a flight plan for you if you asked nicely. And of course they can always get you wx, it's just other stuff like flight plans/briefing they don't normally do.
 
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IFR = Insane Finances Required

A year or two past on this forum, one wise and experienced RV owner posted rather honestly to the effect that motel rooms and rental cars (on those rare occasions when you can not fly home VFR) are much less money than a legal and up to date IFR RV (with inspection certs and subscriptions).

I am of the opinion that there is not really an inexpensive way to assemble and maintain an IFR ship. There are however a few less expensive ways. Sometimes less expensive ends up being more expensive and a lot more non flying time while you are re doing a panel.

A couple days ago, Sig600 posted some of the most accurate words I have read about IFR in RV's

(Suitability of RVs for Instument Training) post #18

Good Luck and have fun.
 
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Brantel said:
The D10A can display both CDI and GS data on the main PFD display....just select CDI+GS.....
Click to expand...

Yes the D10A can show CDI and GS at the same time (HSI/RMI). It can't simultaneously show the HSI/RMI data alongside the primary flight data (AI, ASI, Alt, VSI, DG, TB) like the D100 can. The HSI/RMI can only be seen as full screen. This is stated on the D10A User Guide, Page 6-2.

So with the D10A you have to decide on displaying either the CDI+GS or flight instruments but not both at the same time which is what Snowflake was asking about.
Snowflake said:
I have a D10A but only a Garmin GPS feeding it. But I think @koupster is saying that if you have a Nav Radio source, that the CDI or Glideslope can be displayed on the main EFIS display too... ie. alongside your primary flight info. Perhaps someone with a D10A/SL30 setup can confirm.
Click to expand...

:cool:
 
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From the way I read the D10A user guide, I would only lose an informational box,i.e.(TAS,OAT). My 6 does have a raw data altimeter, will have raw data ASI. I think the stratus 2 AHRS on the IPAD would be an ok back up attitude, not certified, I know. Not sure if I was clear, 99% of my flying in this airplane will be VFR, just do not like the chance of getting stuck somewhere for marginal conditions.
 
britt fincher said:
Not planing low IFR. IF ask me, anything less than a twin turbine powered airplane with Cat III b capability, is not safe for low IFR.
Click to expand...

Not picking on you, but this just can't be done if you fly any IMC IFR. You can NEVER be sure the weather won't just keep on going down, forecast or not.

If you're going to fly IFR, make you airplane safe for IMC because it will happen to you one of these days, whether you want it to or not.

Otherwise, just enjoy your VFR airplane.
 
Arlen said:
...agree completely. The ready availability of the WAAS GPS technology for instrument flying has simplified and made more precise the whole IFR flying/approach process and reliability. When I am needing to fly an approach to get into an airport, I always choose the WAAS RNAV/GPS approach over an ILS.
Click to expand...

I wish I had a nickle for every time I had to fly and ILS because of wind or runway conditions. You can't always choose a GPS approach. The good old ILS is still a great way to get home. The WAAS GPS approaches are great, but they are not every where just yet. If you're going to fly in the clouds make your plane capable of getting you out of whatever you get yourself into..
 
RV8iator said:
If you're going to fly IFR, make you airplane safe for IMC because it will happen to you one of these days, whether you want it to or not.

Otherwise, just enjoy your VFR airplane.
Click to expand...

VERY well said. Flying in VMC is AWESOME!

IMC is not the time or place to nickel and dime gamble with your life.

 
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Regarding training for IFR in an RV

A short story:

Well so I have this friend who loves to teach. He's not a great teacher but let that go ;)

Anyhow we both are computer scientists and he teaches simple computer programming 101 in a class where anyone can sign up - scientist, engineer, ornamental horticulturist, biologist, political scientist, english major, history major etc.

But my buddy also happens to have a degree in physics. So when he teaches this course, he likes to greate projects for the studs to do which are problems in physics.

I've mentioned to him that this is counter-productive because many of his students don't care about solving 2-body orbital problems.

Ever.

And it confuses and frustrates them because they have to BOTH understand the physics of the problem (and some are not technical) and also come to try and understand the programming concepts being taught. It's enormously frustrating because when they get the wrong answer, they do not know if it's a problem with the programming or with the physics they programmed.

I've had this done to me when I was in school and I hated it.

The moral of this story is:

Focus on the one thing you are trying to learn and make everything else a non-factor.
 
GalinHdz said:
Yes the D10A can show CDI and GS at the same time (HSI/RMI). It can't simultaneously show the HSI/RMI data alongside the primary flight data (AI, ASI, Alt, VSI, DG, TB) like the D100 can. The HSI/RMI can only be seen as full screen. This is stated on the D10A User Guide, Page 6-2.

So with the D10A you have to decide on displaying either the CDI+GS or flight instruments but not both at the same time which is what Snowflake was asking about.


:cool:
Click to expand...

Not to be argumentative but the CDI/GS can be shown on the D10A along with the PFD. The HSI is a totally different beast and for that I 100% agree with you. The HSI is not the only way to get course guidance and GS info....

Snowflake never mentioned anything about the HSI unless I missed it.

Here is an example of the CDI on the PFD:

d10a%20straight%20on.jpg



Here is the documentation on how to turn it on along with a picture of the GS info on the left side:


14ln704.jpg
 
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Randy said:
What about using the SL30 plus a GNS 400W? The 400W is considerably less cost than the 430W so it might make sense if you already have the SL30. That is my situation and the direction I will probably go to enable IFR training.

Can anybody share reasons not to go this route for best bang for the buck if you already have the SL30?
Click to expand...

I can share reasons why I did exactly that.

The builder of my -7 had a major brain malfunction when he chose to combine dual G3X screens only with an SL30. In today's environment, which both in the cockpit and outside is changing at the speed of light, not to include precision GPS approach capability if you are going to fly in, or over, or under IMC weather is a fool's errand.

We have marvelous aids for enhancing situational awareness, which should allow a VFR-only pilot to remain well clear of IMC, and a marginally experienced/current IFR pilot to avoid the necessity of shooting an approach to IFR/LIFR conditions.

But my approach centered on "What if?" I wanted the limiting factor to be the approaches available within whatever range limitation exists at the time, not a limitation I'd created that flew along with me no matter where I went.

At the time, Garmin had reduced prices on the 400W, which I think was about $4K less than a 430W. It had all that I needed, and since budget was a factor, I chose that option.

The only consequence of that decision I didn't realize at the time has to do with shooting an ILS approach, which like one of the replies suggested, is never my first choice if an available and suitable GPS approach exists.

I'm still working out the procedures I need to deal with this, but the short version is that the User's Guide for the 400w series assumes a 430W. With the GPS and LOC capability included in the same unit, you can navigate using the GPS until the unit automatically switches the CDI source to LOC for intercepting the final approach course. But with the LOC signal contained in a separate unit, this auto-switching isn't available.

Imagine my surprise a few weeks ago when on a practice ILS approach in VFR conditions I activated the approach on the 400W and GPS guidance on the G3X disappeared. There may be a procedural fix for this, but I mention it only to address one consequence of having GPS and LOC navigation info in separate units.

Tosh
 
F1R said:
A year or two past on this forum, one wise and experienced RV owner posted rather honestly to the effect that motel rooms and rental cars (on those rare occasions when you can not fly home VFR) are much less money than a legal and up to date IFR RV (with inspection certs and subscriptions).

I am of the opinion that there is not really an inexpensive way to assemble and maintain an IFR ship. There are however a few less expensive ways. Sometimes less expensive ends up being more expensive and a lot more non flying time while you are re doing a panel.

A couple days ago, Sig600 posted some of the most accurate words I have read about IFR in RV's

(Suitability of RVs for Instument Training) post #18

Good Luck and have fun.
Click to expand...

I'm the OP on that thread, and reply #18 dealt with every one of my comments based on the experience I was specifically seeking. Highly recommended!

Tosh
 
Brantel said:
Not to be argumentative but the CDI/GS can be shown on the D10A along with the PFD. The HSI is a totally different beast and for that I 100% agree with you. The HSI is not the only way to get course guidance and GS.
Click to expand...

You are not being argumentative, you are being correct. I just learned something more today. Thanks!

:cool:
 
Tango Mike said:
. But with the LOC signal contained in a separate unit, this auto-switching isn't available.
Tosh
Click to expand...

I cannot speak to the G3X, but my GRT Horizon - when armed for an ILS - will search all nav sources looking for a localizer. No problem switching automatically from G420 to SL30.
 
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