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Jabiru Limits MOGAS Storage to 14 Days

Ok----so are the chemicals and amounts of those chemicals used in AVgas, and MOgas the same in all countries? I ask because the bulletin came from Australia. Maybe Katie or Ben can chime in here.
Tom
 
Ok----so are the chemicals and amounts of those chemicals used in AVgas, and MOgas the same in all countries? I ask because the bulletin came from Australia. Maybe Katie or Ben can chime in here.
Tom
 
Ok----so are the chemicals and amounts of those chemicals used in AVgas, and MOgas the same in all countries? I ask because the bulletin came from Australia. Maybe Katie or Ben can chime in here.
Tom

Tom,

My unofficial opinion is since Jabiru sells to other countries (more than half are sold in the US market), that the SL would also apply to fuels used by other countries. My guess is that Jabiru has seen problems with the use of stale MOGAS. There is a good chance that outback locations worldwide have commonly used old MOGAS from storage facilities or from unapproved containers. Once again, this is just my opinion, I don't have the facts to back it up. Perhaps Jabiru USA will chime in.

Jabiru recommends using 100LL over MOGAS...the opposite of ROTAX.
 
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I'm with you on this one Tom. I dont know whats in the fuel (or profess to know), but if Jabiru makes that recommendation, they know something. I would like to know what issues they were having, and if it caused hardware damage.
Tom
 
I've heard more than 30 days is bad so I blend MOGAS with AVGAS to help avoid problems.
 
For those that blend LL100 and MOGAS, you might want to read 3.3 here.


Tony

No Jabiru engine here but good info for those that operate them. My Cherokee 140's STC from Peterson Aviation said it was ok - for Lycoming engines they tested.
 
Jabiru has done a lot of research on fuels. They issued their first fuel bulletin 4 or 5 years ago and keep adding to it as they learn more. Poor fuel quality can cause detonation and general gumming-up of the fuel system. They have linked poor fuel quality to cases of detonation and subsequent damage of engine components.

The bulletin really does have some great info about different fuel types and how things work, especially Ethanol. And very interesting information about blending 100LL with auto fuel-- basically, that the two fuels are chemically incompatible. It makes you wonder if the auto fuel STCs issued in the 80s may not be entirely accurate anymore as fuels are modernized... As Jabiru puts it, "Modern fuels are an increasingly specialised field as each gasoline blend incorporates ingredients from diverse sources. Traditional gasoline refined from crude oil is increasingly being blended with hydrocarbons from different sources – coal syngas, oil sands, shale oil, alcohols, algal and plant refineries to name a few. As with any complicated field some basic knowledge of the basic “rules of the road” are essential to operate successfully."

It's a long read but a good one. (I read it today.) By the way... can we get some of that UL91 unleaded Avgas over here from Europe!?
 
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For those that blend LL100 and MOGAS, you might want to read 3.3 here.


Tony

There have been people blending 100LL and Mogas longer than Jabiru has been in business without any troubles. If I was a company and wanted to limit my liability exposure I would make similar statements.
 
There have been people blending 100LL and Mogas longer than Jabiru has been in business without any troubles. If I was a company and wanted to limit my liability exposure I would make similar statements.

I know it's controversial, but the recommendation to not blend them came straight from the chemists at the fuel companies. People will keep doing it, but they should know the risks.
 
The FAA has approved the Petersen Auto fuel STC on certified aircraft and with in the STC they state you can mix the two different fuels without any issues. I have never seen any actual documentation from a petroleum company that shows the detrimental effects of mixing the two or that they will not blend together. I do realize that the percentages of the different ingredients within each of the fuels will change, but the two fuels are not like oil and water. I hear a lot of individuals that heard from a friend who heard from a friend about how bad it is, but I'm from Missouri so I'm going to have to be shown. (Actually I'm joking, I'm not from Missouri)
 
Most aero engine makers other than Rotax have published similar documents to this one by Jabiru. Here is a Lycoming document: http://www4.total.fr/germany/Lycoming Service Instruction 1070S.pdf

On the other side of the coin we have Peterson's mogas STCs for a wide range of Lycoming engines which people have been using successfully for years. Hundreds or thousands of RVs here are also using Mogas with no detonation issues.

For a very exhaustive fuel study go here: http://www.crcao.org/reports/recent...k Tests of 30 Unleaded High-Octane Blends.pdf

A summation is on pages 72-73. It concludes that certain unleaded formulations were superior in knock resistance to 100LL while other formulations were inferior. High variability of formulation and performance was noted with the latter not necessarily explainable.

Much research was done on aviation fuels in the '40s and '50s. One of my old texts though shows that most formulations of basic gasoline stocks, Heptanes, Aromatics and Olefins have high lead susceptibility although within that group, octane increase per gram of lead can be variable up to 50%. Despite this, clearly, mixing 100LL with almost any unleaded gasoline formula will in fact increase octane noticeably.

Having run many turbocharged race engines on all sorts of different fuels that I mixed (even from scratch), I agree with the old texts. A bit of lead allowed measurably more boost to be run before encountering detonation on the dyno.

This contradicts some of what Jabiru says here. They are just playing it safe because they have no data- just use 100LL and you shouldn't have any detonation is the message. If we look at it from Jabiru's perspective rather than the operator trying to save some money, then they are probably right that diluting 100LL with Mogas will reduce the fuel octane rating and could lead to detonation under some circumstances..

What Lycoming and Jabiru are concerned about is the variability of mogas formulations and this point is very valid in my view and confirmed by the FAA tests I would say. They simply don't want to take responsibility for warranty claims resulting from detonation by using inferior auto fuels and I don't blame them.

Interestingly, the liquid cooled heads on the Rotax seem to give them better detonation resistance than their all air cooled brethren. Rotax generally recommends unleaded premium Mogas rather than 100LL which tends to leave deposits in chambers, on valves and pistons and the gearbox, requiring a halving of oil change intervals when running 100LL.
 
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Interestingly, the liquid cooled heads on the Rotax seem to give them better detonation resistance than their all air cooled brethren.

And this data has been publicly reported in several places, and I would hazard a guess that this is what is scaring Jabiru from the liability perspective, and is directly responsible for them "lawyering up" with this SB.
 
And this data has been publicly reported in several places, and I would hazard a guess that this is what is scaring Jabiru from the liability perspective, and is directly responsible for them "lawyering up" with this SB.

I don't think you can blame Jabiru or Lycoming for their stance. Other detonation data from Lycoming studies shows that under some extreme conditions, you can still have detonation even on 100LL. Using much lower octane Mogas would certainly exacerbate the problem. They shouldn't have to cough up for replacing broken pistons because someone wanted to save on fuel costs. Straight 100LL will give you the best detonation protection is all they are saying and old Mogas the worst. Use Mogas at your own risk is the message.

They know people are using Mogas in their engines, just making them aware of the potential for problems. I think it's a fair message. I'd also mention that Jabiru in particular is concerned about what is being said about their engines especially as of late. If many people use Mogas and break pistons, the word goes out that pistons are failing all the time and Jabiru is invariably blamed for it when people are operating them counter to their recommendations. That would be frustrating for sure.

Your Jab or Lycoming might actually run fine on straight Mogas or a blend of 100LL and Mogas, but they want people to be aware of the fuel variability you can encounter with Mogas. This fact is clearly demonstrated in the FAA fuel study.
 
3.3 says nothing specific about mixing avgas and mogas. It says "possible" and "assume", because the proportions are infinitely variable, so lawyers say no. Perhaps you're getting the best of both fuels. No controlled tests, but Yanks have been mixing the two for decades. Yawn.

Much more is said about alcohol precautions. With this contaminant in most of our US gas, it's the larger worry. Tell your representatives to kill the idiotic mandates.

John Siebold
 
Such mixing occurs on a small scale every time someone switches from their 100LL (T/O and landing) tank to their Mogas (cruise) tank, or back again - they mix in their fuel lines, gascolator, filter and carb bowl.

If the (illegitimate, scandalous) blends were so undesirable, you'd think we'd have blown lots of pistons by now. I'll take a pass on the alarmism.

-Stormy
 
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Interesting that words such as "idiotic and alarmist" pops up when the contents of a manufacturer's SL is shared outside the "circle". Jabiru is a small company. Their well written bulletin simply states: Our preference for our engines is to run Avgas. Mogas is secondary provided it meets the SL's stated requirements and the fuel source is no older than 14 days. The reasons they don't recommend mixing the fuels are: 1) They probably have not conducted the testing, and 2) The chemical engineers recommended against it. For a small company, this is a very reasonable and conservative approach. Nothing "idiotic or alarmist" about that!

Regards,
 
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Let me mix the pot a little bit!;)
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