EFIS experience, recommendations

I am looking at the purchase of an EFIS. I want the combo that also has the engine monitor. I was leaning towards the Dynon but saw a comparison to the Advanced Flight Systems and it looks the Dynon does not have nearly as many features. Can somebody with experience in this area offer some advice.
Thanks, Tom

I am looking at the purchase of an EFIS. I want the combo that also has the engine monitor. I was leaning towards the Dynon but saw a comparison to the Advanced Flight Systems and it looks the Dynon does not have nearly as many features. Can somebody with experience in this area offer some advice.

Click to expand...

Tom, no doubt you will receive several replies to your query. You will also find that this topic has been discussed in depth several times on this forum. You can use the "Search" feature of the forum to review previous discussions and no doubt get answers to many of your questions.

Regardless of which system you chose you will be impressed with the capability of these devices.

Tom,

I looked at that AFS comparison and laughed at some of the things they stated.

First off, I'm not flying yet but have a Dynon D100 EFIS connected to a Dynon D10 EMS in my -9. I have had a chance to play with them, up grade them, etc.

The big thing that AFS kept saying they had but Dynon did not was a voice warning when something went out of bounds. This is true but what they don't tell you is Dynon has a "tone" warning, along with a red band across the screen and when you hit "acknowledge" the offending reading will be blinking.

For example, when I power mine up I get the tone warning and red band across the screen that I have low oil pressure. After pressing the acknowledge button, the oil pressure gauge and reading are flashing. You can set these parameters any way you like.

The other thing that they commented on was that the AFS system is written with "certified" software. I've got news for you, there is no such thing as "certified" software, only a "certified software development" process. For them to say their software is certified is like me saying my airplane is certified safe because I say it is.

I know a number of people who fly IFR with Dynon units and love them.

The comments about how long it takes to update the software is total BS. Mine have never taken that long. One thing they do that AFS does not do and that adds to the length of time for the update is that that prior to over writing the existing software in the unit, it backs it up to your PC. Something you cannot do with the AFS. Just in case there is an issue, you can restore your software to the prior version. This is well worth any extra time it might take to perform an upgrade.

The Dynon HSI display is seems nice, again, I haven't flown with it yet so I can't really comment.

One thing I like about Dynon is the software upgrades are all free. For example, when they came out with the HSI feature, there was no cost. Just down load the software to your PC, connect the PC to the unit and update it.

I suspect (Hope!) they will soon come out with an HITS display and even that will be free.

All in all, the Dynon gives me more info than I think I will ever use in my D/N VFR ship.

Back when I made my selection I created a spreadsheet with all the features from each of the EFIS and EMS options out there. Putting a check in each box and then figuring out what options were worth it to me.

For example, I didn't feel the need for an AOA but the fact that the Dynon has one and it is included when you buy their pitot tube was a nice to have, not a requirement.

By building up your own decision matrix, you will skip a bunch of the marketing hype.

All that said, I do wish the Dynon units could record flight parameters w/o connecting a PC to them. That single item is probably their biggest "miss".

Have to agree

I have a D100 and EMS D10. I fly them IFR.

The HSI and especially the TAS and Xwind indication is just great.

I just wish i had an SL30 so i could get glide slope.

I guess you could do away with the NAV head in theory but thats a little too many eggs in one basket for me.

The Dynon pair are very capable units....Oh and you can swap the screens from one to the other...I pull the EMS data onto the EFI to set the engine up with the engine instruments right in front of me.

if I then do some airwork (especially IFR holds) I then swap the engine instruments for the HSI.

The Wife loves having an EFIS on her side when its her turn to fly.

Frank 7a

All that said, I do wish the Dynon units could record flight parameters w/o connecting a PC to them. That single item is probably their biggest "miss".

Click to expand...

There are various "serial recorder" devices (tiny PCBs) that will do this quite cheaply and easily onto an SD card or similar... If you are fairly good with wiring, and basics in software, you can easily record from the D180 both the EMS and EFIS parameters and retrieve onto a PC (we have a D180 and I record the data as discussed).

Consider GRT, too

I have nothing against Dynon; I am even considering their small PFD as backup. I simply suggest that you include GRT in your list of candidates. They are not direct competitors to Dynon. They have more features and integration, arguably better screens and arguably higher standards for IFR level reliability. I cannot prove any of that, but many of us believe it. GRT also costs more. I doubt you can go wrong, really. And as suggested above, there are many posts about this already.

Just recieved my May edition of kitplanes.
Contained within are several pages of the best non biased comparison of the current glass panels available to the experimental builder.

The article was written by none other than our own Stein of Stein air.

A really great and informative piece on a difficult subject.

Great work Stein

The big thing that AFS kept saying they had but Dynon did not was a voice warning when something went out of bounds. This is true but what they don't tell you is Dynon has a "tone" warning, along with a red band across the screen and when you hit "acknowledge" the offending reading will be blinking.

I know a person that stalled a Mooney on approach and crashed it. After walking away he realized what that warning horn was?. He will tell you that if it had said ?Angle Angle Push? he would have had a different outcome. The less things that your brain has to process in an emergency the better. We used to also have the beeping and I too, thought it was great, until I started flying with voice alerts.



The other thing that they commented on was that the AFS system is written with "certified" software. I've got news for you, there is no such thing as "certified" software, only a "certified software development" process. For them to say their software is certified is like me saying my airplane is certified safe because I say it is.

We have never said that the AFS system is written with ?Certified Software?, The Crossbow AHRS that we use has the same CPU and Software as the Crossbow certified 500 AHRS. The main difference between the AHRS we use nad the certified 500 is a special front end board that lets it run on battery backup voltage.

The comments about how long it takes to update the software is total BS. Mine have never taken that long. One thing they do that AFS does not do and that adds to the length of time for the update is that that prior to over writing the existing software in the unit, it backs it up to your PC. Something you cannot do with the AFS. Just in case there is an issue, you can restore your software to the prior version. This is well worth any extra time it might take to perform an upgrade.

The Dynon D-10A in my RV-4 takes over 24 minutes to backup and load new software (I have timed it multiple times), maybe it is broke? How long does yours take? The AFS unit will also backup all data to the SD card and it takes less than 3 minutes to load new software.

Please accurately time your unit and I will update the comparison.

You should see how fast it loads a map from the SD Card



Sincerely,

Rob Hickman
Advanced Flight Systems Inc.

Is it true that it can take up to 11 button pushes on a Dynon to change certain things...like brightness?

BTW, I stopped by SteinAir today to take a look at an AFS unit... a 3400 and a 3500... that they're instlaling in a panel heading for Australia. It was ...really....really... nice.

Of course, one of the things I *really* like about AFS is it's built by an RVer. Yeah, yeah.... I know... maybe that's a stupid reason to rank someone higher than someone else. But, all things being equal...or nearly so...that and customer service holds sway.

I haven't decided yet exactliy what I'm doing -- I don't have any money right now anyway to do anything but sit and make airplane noises -- but so far ... talking with pilots and others.... AFS is in the lead.

the one thing that deflated me just a bit was Stein said most people are putting in two. That made me realize -- again -- that I made a really bad decision when I went into the journalism business. I should've become a... well.. whatever apparently most of you are.

Bob Collins said:

Of course, one of the things I *really* like about AFS is it's built by an RVer. Yeah, yeah.... I know... maybe that's a stupid reason to rank someone higher than someone else. But, all things being equal...or nearly so...that and customer service holds sway.

Click to expand...

Not stupid at all, in my book! In fact, that's one thing I like about GRT....their original test bird was an RV-6 (I believe), and both Greg and Todd are building 10's....or at least they were.....with a large order book, I wonder if they are getting any airplane building done!


Oh, and yeah....Stein's is a bad place to visit if you are prone to drooling...

Paul

Rob,

Sorry, I did not intend that post to sound like I was attacking AFS. I think you have good products but I thought the comparison sheet was very marketing based, thus my suggestion for each prospective customer to create their own comparison.

N401RH said:

I know a person that stalled a Mooney on approach and crashed it. After walking away he realized what that warning horn was?. He will tell you that if it had said ?Angle Angle Push? he would have had a different outcome. The less things that your brain has to process in an emergency the better. We used to also have the beeping and I too, thought it was great, until I started flying with voice alerts.

Click to expand...

I've never even flown in a Mooney but if it is like the other planes I've flown, the buzzer means one of two things, you are about to stall or the gear is up and the power is way back.

I agree, "Angle, Angle, Push" would be nice but having flown a lot of airplanes w/o any type of electrical system, I have to ask, is it necessary? That was the point I was trying to get across. In the pattern, a buzzer of any kind will have me do one of two things, possibly both, lower the nose and add power. Even more so when a buzzer goes off and I?m watching the AS and see it down near the stall. I do hope the Mooney driver was watching his AS at some point during his approach.

N401RH said:

The Dynon D-10A in my RV-4 takes over 24 minutes to backup and load new software (I have timed it multiple times), maybe it is broke? How long does yours take? The AFS unit will also backup all data to the SD card and it takes less than 3 minutes to load new software.

Please accurately time your unit and I will update the comparison.

You should see how fast it loads a map from the SD Card

Click to expand...

I do not have a D-10A in my panel, thus I can't test it. I suspect you are correct on the time it takes to upgrade that unit.

However, the D100 w/ its faster processor takes just a few minutes to back up the software and perform the upgrade. I will not state a number as I didn't time my last upgrade but I'm sure it was much less than 24 minutes.

The AFS unit is nice, as is the Grand Rapids, and some of the others. The truth is, I would be equally happy with any of them and with all the changes and upgrades the manufactures are coming out with, it is hard to keep up.

The trick is to figure out which product best matches your mission, budget, and desires. Thus my initial recommendation.

The only reason I even responded is that I go to great lengths to be fair and accurate. I have a Dynon D-10A in my RV-4 and it has always worked really well. I really like the functionality and layout of my panel with the AF-3500EE, D-10a, Garmin 396, SL-30, and Digiflight IIVSGV autopilot. With these instruments my RV-4 is very well equipped and a joy to fly on trips.

The battery backup in the AF-3500EE, D-10A, and 396 is extremely valuable in an emergency. Last year on my way into Oshkosh I had a complete electrical failure just as I turned base. I can tell you that in a high stress situation it takes longer than you think to react. After landing I remembered to turn on the alternate electrical feed and got the radio and intercom back. The problem turned out to be a faulty battery contactor.

Just to be accurate, the Dynon D-100 actually takes 25 minutes and 30 seconds to backup and update the software.

Sincerely,

Rob Hickman
Advanced Flight Systems

hevansrv7a said:

I have nothing against Dynon; I am even considering their small PFD as backup. I simply suggest that you include GRT in your list of candidates. They are not direct competitors to Dynon. They have more features and integration, arguably better screens and arguably higher standards for IFR level reliability. I cannot prove any of that, but many of us believe it. GRT also costs more. I doubt you can go wrong, really. And as suggested above, there are many posts about this already.

Click to expand...

I almost went with Dynon because I was thinking that that it was the "simplest" solution and because of that it would be cheapest one but when I summed it up with what I specifically needed/wanted (As per my wish list) it proved untrue in favour of the GRT even if the differance was small. Also in my case Dynon (180) had a 2 month delivery time and GRT (sport) had none and I was not in the position to wait.

On top of that GRT so far has been exceptionally good to deal with. No matter how stupid my question was or strange my request has been the reply/solution has always been prompt.

Just to update this thread, Dynon announced firmware updates and a new expansion module:
http://www.dynonavionics.com/docs/news_spring_2007_firmware.html
http://www.dynonavionics.com/docs/news_expansion_modules.html

These two items introduce many new features including voice alerts, a knob for adjusting barometric pressure and heading bug, internal data logging, new EFIS display layout, etc.

Another GRT vote

It's getting more competitive and more bang for the buck. When I was in your shoes I looked at GRT last for whatever reason but it became crystal clear they were the best choice for me. 2 years later I am more sure than ever I made the right decision and I have not doubts years from now they will still be in business with still very competitive pricing and hopefully still issuing free software upgrades and map databases.

Their Sport system rocks for VFR and horizon 1 is solid for IFR. Very integrated, very reliable.

Bit of both

I have a D10A and I have an AFS 2500. I bought the 2500 before Dynon was in the engine monitor business. I have had service done on both units and I can't say which one is better--they BOTH have excellent service. Both do everything they say they will and work very well. I do like the voice alerts, but I easily recognize the Dynon AOA beep. My only complaint with either is that the AFS 2500 will not communicate with certain Dell laptops. Mine is one. They have known this for quite some time. I have no glass panel experience with any other companies, but you can't go wrong with Dynon or AFS. Unless perhaps you mix-and-match as I did. I do hate it that I can't bring the HSI up on the engine monitor. Should have waited...

Don't buy until you absolutely have to.

Bob Kelly

So Bob, with your mix and match experience, what would you do today if you had to make the decision again?

Inquiring minds want to know.........

AFS 3500 & 3400

Here is some pics of my installation, I tried for ever to get the Engine Monitor into the central stack, in the end I just had to put it in front of the co-pilot, am really glad I did now because with the AFS system now both pilots have a full sert of flight & engine instruments. I can also run through W & B & all checklists on the big screen in front of me. Also I can't believe how good the screens are, I have probably shwn them to 30 RV'ers since I got them & every one has been impressed by the clarity, even taking them out into the sun & viewing them at extreme angles.


http://img267.imageshack.us/my.php?image=apr2007004tp1.jpg
http://img239.imageshack.us/my.php?image=apr2007002oo0.jpg

rleffler said:

So Bob, with your mix and match experience, what would you do today if you had to make the decision again?

Inquiring minds want to know.........

Click to expand...

Well, I'd have to look at the new updates from Dynon and also really go over what AFS has to offer, but I would stick to one company. At this point, I would probably go with Dynon from what I know, but that could change. I consider both companies excellent, and each has fine products. A few bucks one way or another wouldn't make much difference. Screen brightness would be a big thing, and I haven't really compared that point.

BTW, just spent 1.8 hours using both instruments since my last post. The grin is back

Bob

I went to Sun N Fun yesterday to try and make a final decision on which system to go with. I stopped by and talked to the Dynon, AFS and GRT reps. Other than being more uncertain I did find out a few things. GRT raised the price of their units to high def and 1200 nit by about $2000.00. The dimensions of the unit has changed so people who want to upgrade may not have the same size unit to fit their old hole.

Since I live here in Florida bright sunlight is a concern for me. I talked to the AFS rep and we discussed the nit levels between the three companies. He disconnected his unit and we walked outside in the direct sunlight. The screen was somewhat washed out by the direct sun but was very readable. I wanted a direct comparison of brightness between the units. The only place that had multiple units sitting together was Pacific Coast Avionics.They had a AFS and Dynon sitting side by side. Maybe it was just me but the AFS looked brighter. I don't know about the GRT

Other things I have to consider:

Screen size...the 3500 wins hands down
Internal GPS...GRT
All three will communicate between multiple screens and share info back and forth.
They all work with the Garmin SL30, 430,530 etc. If you have a standard King or Narco nav, there isn't much to offer

Shipping delays: I think Dynon is the shortest. AFS is 12 weeks and the new high def GRT won't ship at least until the fall 07

I still am trying to make a final decision. One thing I am willing to bet on is as competition continues, the functionality of all will only increase which will ultimately be a win win for us

Jim Kinsey
7a Fuselage

I forgot to mention, all of the other companies that I looked at were out of reason in price for someone that has to work for a living!!
Especially if I want to buy an engine by the time I get finished building.

I plan on doing the same at Airventure. It certainly will be interesting to see how the delivery time improves by July.

the other low cost EFIS

Stratomaster Enigma is another lower cost low end contender, but catching up at a rapid pace:

offers 9 screens with flexibility to design your own
moving map
highway in the sky
pseudo ILS (Gps aided)
engine monitoring
working on a 10.4" screen model
Connect two or more Enigmas using standard USB host to device cables
Graphic Weight and Balance
works with SL30
some autopilot support

Jkkinz said:

I went to Sun N Fun yesterday to try and make a final decision on which system to go with. I stopped by and talked to the Dynon, AFS and GRT reps. Other than being more uncertain I did find out a few things. GRT raised the price of their units to high def and 1200 nit by about $2000.00. The dimensions of the unit has changed so people who want to upgrade may not have the same size unit to fit their old hole.

Since I live here in Florida bright sunlight is a concern for me. I talked to the AFS rep and we discussed the nit levels between the three companies. He disconnected his unit and we walked outside in the direct sunlight. The screen was somewhat washed out by the direct sun but was very readable. I wanted a direct comparison of brightness between the units. The only place that had multiple units sitting together was Pacific Coast Avionics.They had a AFS and Dynon sitting side by side. Maybe it was just me but the AFS looked brighter. I don't know about the GRT

Other things I have to consider:

Screen size...the 3500 wins hands down
Internal GPS...GRT
All three will communicate between multiple screens and share info back and forth.
They all work with the Garmin SL30, 430,530 etc. If you have a standard King or Narco nav, there isn't much to offer

Shipping delays: I think Dynon is the shortest. AFS is 12 weeks and the new high def GRT won't ship at least until the fall 07

I still am trying to make a final decision. One thing I am willing to bet on is as competition continues, the functionality of all will only increase which will ultimately be a win win for us

Jim Kinsey
7a Fuselage

I forgot to mention, all of the other companies that I looked at were out of reason in price for someone that has to work for a living!!
Especially if I want to buy an engine by the time I get finished building.

Click to expand...

GRT screen excellent in sunlight

It's not the nits. It's that it is reflective as well as backlit. I have even been able to see it very well with part in sunlight and part in shade. I have the orginal GRT screen and I see no reason to upgrade. Nothing else comes close in bright light.
picture

I went flying with a buddy in his new -10 yesterday, he has an AFS 3500 set directly in front of the left seat. The radio stack has a Garmin 496.

From the right seat, I could see the AFS screen "plane" as day-------excellent color, and contrast--------and everything was large enough to see easily. Bright sunny day. And the audio warnings (oil pressure, egt, aoa) were an actual recording of a womans voice, not a robot sounding synthetic voice. Clear and easy to hear/understand.

The Garmin, which was closer to me, was almost un readable due to size, although still good color/contrast etc.

I was very impressed with the AFS unit in flight, as I have previously been impressed with the customer support that they provided when a minor software problem was found with the RPM calibration--------an e-mail, download to a memory card, and update the unit all in a half hour or so from initial contact.

Mike

Jkkinz said:

I went to Sun N Fun yesterday to try and make a final decision on which system to go with. I stopped by and talked to the Dynon, AFS and GRT reps. Other than being more uncertain I did find out a few things. GRT raised the price of their units to high def and 1200 nit by about $2000.00. The dimensions of the unit has changed so people who want to upgrade may not have the same size unit to fit their old hole.

Click to expand...

If I understood the GRT people right at the show the 2000$ upgrade enables the XM weather too. So it is more expensive but it includes what now is a 1500 dollar option. Reason seems to be that the new faster cpu (that is included in that upgrade) enables them to run XM with no extra hardware.

At least as far as the sport goes the upgrade cost to the high def screen is 400 dollar. But that is with the slower cpu.
As far as sunlight goes I went from Oakland, Ca to SnF with no problem reading the ols sport screen. Especially down in Key West I had extremely bright sunlight and the unit still had no problems.

GRT display gets even better in direct sunlight

Don't get wrapped up in NITs. The display type used more important in my opinion. Unlike my Garmin which is backlit and gets "washed out" to some degree in direct light, the GRT displays become even more vivid and crisp. The more direct and stronger the sun the better they show.

I have not seen their new displays other than on the web but I believe the new displays will get them competitive with higher end unit's ability to display the WX with more detail and add the "3D" terrain renderings but their current units fit my needs just fine.

First impressions count for a lot and the indoor showman displays allow GRT competitors to LOOK more impressive at first glance. But like some are doing, take the units outside or ask owners on the ramp to fire up their displays for a second then do your comparisons.

Don't assume most GRT owners are going to trash their current displays and buy the new ones even if panel space is no problem. The current ones work fine.