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RV-9 Landing Speeds

N941WR

Legacy Member
Multiple times I have recommend flying the entire pattern in an RV-9(A) at a constant speed; abeam the touchdown point, put in all the flaps and trim for 60 knots, if heavy. (55 knots, if light.)

Here is a picture of my trim tab after a recent flight. It gives a pretty good idea of how slow you can approach in a -9.

Note: this picture was taken after landing with full tanks, no baggage, and only my big 'ol butt in the aircraft.

IMG-20190825-174350252-HDR.jpg
 
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I regularly have Cessna 172s pass me on final for the parallel runway. With a fixed pitch prop I don?t want to fly too fast and float down the runway. After I pull the power back to 1200 rpm I fly at 70 mph indicated until I have the runway made then cut it all the way to idle, just like Mike Seager taught me. I?ve been experimenting with bringing the airspeed up a little so I?m less of a hazard to those fast flying Cessnas! :D

But you?re right about touching down at low airspeed. I?ve played around with just how slow I can touch down. It?s almost if I could just hop out when the mains touch! Fantastic! It just likes to fly!
 
Thanks

Thanks Bill - this is all good food for thought for when I get my -9 flying (hopefully in the next couple of years).
I've heard from a couple of other RV-9 pilots of just how slow (and fast) they can go.

Just wondering though, do you aim for 3-point or wheeler landings? Again just food for thought for me to ponder the flying characteristics while doing the endless drill/deburr/dimple/prime/rivet...
 
Multiple times I have recommend flying the entire pattern in an RV-9(A) at a constant speed; abeam the touchdown point, put in all the flaps and trim for 60 knots, if heavy. (55 knots, if light.)

Are you implying that you hold 60 knots all the way to the flare/runway, or do you slow it even further? 60 KIAS seems fast for an RV-9.
 
...
Just wondering though, do you aim for 3-point or wheeler landings? Again just food for thought for me to ponder the flying characteristics while doing the endless drill/deburr/dimple/prime/rivet...

With my old engine (light O-290d2) I was tail heavy and it liked to three point and did so very easily.

With the O-360, it is better balanced, about where it should be and probably the same as an O-320, it likes to wheel land. I can do either, and it does either with an equal level of skill. However, I tend to wheel land it now.

You will like the -9! It is probably the easiest taildragger I have ever flown and I have time in a bunch of different taildraggers.
 
Are you implying that you hold 60 knots all the way to the flare/runway, or do you slow it even further? 60 KIAS seems fast for an RV-9.

If I wheel land it, I will touchdown at 60 to 50 knots, maybe slower, but defiantly above the stall speed.

If I three-point it, of course I will have to flair it and do a full stall landing. So, yes, I slow down but the entire pattern is still flown at one consistent speed and flap setting. Even at 55 knots, we are still way above the stall speed.

What I am referring to my post is that I don't put 10 degrees of flaps, trim, and slow down a little bit on downwind, 20 degrees, retrim, and slow it down some more on base, and put in the last of the flaps, retrim, and slow it down some more on final.

I have found with this airplane, it is much easier to put in all the flaps on downwind and trim it for the final approach speed, then fly the entire pattern at that speed.
 
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Thank you for clarifying! Always looking to learn from others...
 
Thank you for clarifying! Always looking to learn from others...

No problem.

Not to ignite the nosewheel vs. tailwheel debate but with conventional gear, you have more options when landing. For example, I know of one runway that is downhill both ways. If you do a fall stall landing with either landing gear configuration, the runway is dropping away from you as you are trying to get the plane on the ground. With conventional gear, you can just wheel it on by flying it lowered and lower until the wheels touch.
 
Multiple times I have recommend flying the entire pattern in an RV-9(A) at a constant speed; abeam the touchdown point, put in all the flaps and trim for 60 knots, if heavy. (55 knots, if light.)

Here is a picture of my trim tab after a recent flight. It gives a pretty good idea of how slow you can approach in a -9.

Note: this picture was taken after landing with full tanks, no baggage, and only my big 'ol butt in the aircraft.

IMG-20190825-174350252-HDR.jpg

What I see here is a nose heavy aircraft. This trim position has nothing to do with landing slow.

"With conventional gear, you can just wheel it on by flying it lowered and lower until the wheels touch."

Not unique to conventional aircraft. Nose wheel (more conventional than conventional) can also fly on....... iow... "just wheel it on by flying it lower and lower until the wheels touch."

There is nothing wrong with flying the entire pattern at 5 knots above stall speed as long as you are not making everyone behind you extend and adjust their pattern....... I sure hope you are flying a tight pattern.
 
What I see here is a nose heavy aircraft. This trim position has nothing to do with landing slow.
Nope, not nose heavy at all. In fact, due to the Catto prop, P-mags, lightweight starter, etc., the airplane is a little bit tail heavy, compared to the W&B's I've seen. Besides, with the RV's being nose heavy is a good thing as everything, including fuel burn, moves the CG aft.

Not unique to conventional aircraft. Nose wheel (more conventional than conventional) can also fly on....... iow... "just wheel it on by flying it lower and lower until the wheels touch."
True, but much easier with a conventional gear.

There is nothing wrong with flying the entire pattern at 5 knots above stall speed as long as you are not making everyone behind you extend and adjust their pattern....... I sure hope you are flying a tight pattern.
Yep, I always fly a very tight pattern. One in which if the engine were to pack it in, I could make the runway.

If people are behind me, it is no different than if a Cub was landing or something else equally as slow. They are going to have to space it out.

Landing slow, is better on the tires and brakes, not to mention makes you adept at landing at short (1600') fields without worrying. (I have stunned the controllers at a local Delta airport by landing, stopping, retracting the flaps, resetting the trim, etc, and taking off again before the fixed distance markers on a no-wind day. It makes me wonder what I could do, if I had a CS prop up front.)

The point is, many -9(A) pilots I have spoken to tend to come in much faster than needed and float down the runway. Speed control is critical, more so with a -9(A) and a FP prop and flying slow approaches makes your landings much more consistent and predictable.
 
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I realize an RV isn't a pt. 23 airplane, but it shares many operational and design characteristics with them. For pt. 23, the reg states an approach speed of 1.3 times Vso.

Vans says the bottom of the white arc on a rv9 is 49 mph, so a little arithmetic tells me that the minimum "over the fence" speed should be around 55 kts at max gross.

Seems to me that 60 kts should be an obvious target airspeed on final, no matter whether you set that on the downwind, or slow down incrementally. Is it common for people to approach faster than that? and if so, why?

I get the idea of a cushion for gusts, or not wanting to get run over in the pattern or whatever, but is there a practical reason other than that?

Not trying to be a wise guy, I'm just genuinely trying to educate myself.
 
I realize an RV isn't a pt. 23 airplane, but it shares many operational and design characteristics with them. For pt. 23, the reg states an approach speed of 1.3 times Vso.

Vans says the bottom of the white arc on a rv9 is 49 mph, so a little arithmetic tells me that the minimum "over the fence" speed should be around 55 kts at max gross.

Seems to me that 60 kts should be an obvious target airspeed on final, no matter whether you set that on the downwind, or slow down incrementally. Is it common for people to approach faster than that? and if so, why?
....

Exactly my point Terry. I am constantly stunned when I read about the approach speeds some of the -9(A) pilots use. There is a point where adding 5 knots for the family becomes a liability. Where exactly that number is, I don't know.

I did talk to one guy who approaches at 90 on instruments because he says the plane doesn't like to be flown slower. He does have a CS prop, so throttling back slows him really quickly. Witha FP prop, that just won't work.
 
Maybe just to clarify my previous comments: I don't see anything wrong with approaching faster, and I'm sure the controllers appreciate it, especially an instrument approach, but that has to be predicated on an ability to slow down to a reasonable landing speed when you get there. This seems to be a skill that eludes some folks.

What I see all too often is people blasting in on final way too fast and then either trying some heroic measure to slow down at the last minute or wondering why they are floating forever. To your point, it's especially common the folks are used to a CS prop (or a jet) in their regular ride and they are switching to a c172 for a BFR or IPC or whatever.
 
Maybe just to clarify my previous comments: I don't see anything wrong with approaching faster, and I'm sure the controllers appreciate it, especially an instrument approach, but that has to be predicated on an ability to slow down to a reasonable landing speed when you get there. This seems to be a skill that eludes some folks.

What I see all too often is people blasting in on final way too fast and then either trying some heroic measure to slow down at the last minute or wondering why they are floating forever. To your point, it's especially common the folks are used to a CS prop (or a jet) in their regular ride and they are switching to a c172 for a BFR or IPC or whatever.

I agree 100% Terry!
 
CS Prop

My -9A became a different plane when I installed a CS prop. I realize this option is not for everyone (cost, complexity, weight, etc.) but if you have the opportunity try it out. When no one is in the pattern I could routinely enter downwind at 130-140kts - pull the prop mid field, slow to 85 kts, enter base at 75 kts - over the fence at 65 kts - wheels touch at 55 kts. The CS really allows you to control your approach very precisely.
 
Maybe just to clarify my previous comments: I don't see anything wrong with approaching faster, and I'm sure the controllers appreciate it, especially an instrument approach, but that has to be predicated on an ability to slow down to a reasonable landing speed when you get there. This seems to be a skill that eludes some folks.

What I see all too often is people blasting in on final way too fast and then either trying some heroic measure to slow down at the last minute or wondering why they are floating forever. To your point, it's especially common the folks are used to a CS prop (or a jet) in their regular ride and they are switching to a c172 for a BFR or IPC or whatever.

Givens:
* My full time job is flying a jet
* I have a fixed pitch prop on my -9A

Facts:
* I often enter the pattern at 100 - 120 knots, traffic permitting. I do this by choice.
* I cross over the numbers at 55-60 knots consistently, depending on weight. I am in control of my airspeed the whole time.. in other words, I?m flying the airplane, the airplane isn?t flying me.

So, recognizing that only about 10% of my total time is in pistons, I humbly ask you, what?s wrong with this procedure? If I?m in control of the airplane the entire time, and I am crossing the threshold on speed, where?s the harm?
 
Givens:
* My full time job is flying a jet
* I have a fixed pitch prop on my -9A

Facts:
* I often enter the pattern at 100 - 120 knots, traffic permitting. I do this by choice.
* I cross over the numbers at 55-60 knots consistently, depending on weight. I am in control of my airspeed the whole time.. in other words, I’m flying the airplane, the airplane isn’t flying me.

So, recognizing that only about 10% of my total time is in pistons, I humbly ask you, what’s wrong with this procedure? If I’m in control of the airplane the entire time, and I am crossing the threshold on speed, where’s the harm?

What's wrong with your procedure?

Not a blasted thing, that's what. You're in control. That's the whole point.

Many pilots (perhaps most?) are not vigilant about airspeed control on approach/final/flare and they get away with it .... until one day when they don't, and then they wonder what happened and why.

Personally, I do like shooting instrument approaches at 90kias, not because the airplane doesn't like flying slower but because that's a very comfortable speed both for other traffic behind me (I frequently mix with bizjets on approach) and for my ability to shut it down quickly when I break out on final. As Bill noted, having a constant speed prop makes a world of difference in this aspect. At 90 knots and near-minimums breakout I can pull all the power off and almost immediately be dumping flaps and bleeding energy like crazy, and make the threshold rather than the 1000' touchdown point quite easily. It's no longer a stabilized approach like that, but it's easy to do. If you have a fixed pitch prop that's an entirely different animal but the point remains the same - know your aircraft and be in control of it.

I'm not immune to blasting into midfield downwind at 160 knots (traffic permitting), it's fun and if you can still get it shut down for a tight pattern and normal target airspeed across the threshold, there's no reason not to.
 
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Amount of trim

Hi Bill,
When I set up for landing on downwind I reduce power and bleed off airspeed by holding altitude until at flap extension speed. I then throw in about one turn or so of nose up trim and deploy my flaps. This results in flying base and final around 75mph. Usually I cross the numbers around 65mph. Faster and with less flap if there is a cross wind and shoot for 60mph if dead calm. Just me in the airplane, 3/4 tanks, Catto two blade on O-320, no baggage, 1058 empty weight, training wheel on the nose, my trim tab is about 3/8" down when getting out and looking at it after landing. When I take off it is set right at neutral and usually need to add a quarter to a half turn nose down trim to keep it from climbing after leveling off. This is why I have manual trim instead of electric because I read somewhere when building that so little trim is needed when flying. I'm not sure how many turns it would take to get my trim tab to the position in your photo. I have had it there to check for recommended travel requirements but other than that I have not. Why do you think there is such a difference.
Thanks,
 
I typically enter the pattern at 90kts , base 80 kts, final 70 kts, and touch down around 55 kt. I've seen no benefit in flying a super slow pattern, it runs up more hobbs time and I have a soaked shirt when its 100 degrees outside. :D
 
Givens:
* My full time job is flying a jet
* I have a fixed pitch prop on my -9A

Facts:
* I often enter the pattern at 100 - 120 knots, traffic permitting. I do this by choice.
* I cross over the numbers at 55-60 knots consistently, depending on weight. I am in control of my airspeed the whole time.. in other words, I?m flying the airplane, the airplane isn?t flying me.

So, recognizing that only about 10% of my total time is in pistons, I humbly ask you, what?s wrong with this procedure? If I?m in control of the airplane the entire time, and I am crossing the threshold on speed, where?s the harm?

Nothing at all, as far as I can tell. But like somebody else mentioned, then key to this is that you are actively managing your airspeed and stabilized in your approach. I frequently evaluate people (BFR, annual proficiency check for our insurance, etc.) and they are either behind the airplane (bad skills) or ahead of the airplane (expecting it to slow down, develop a high sink rate, etc. because that's what they're used to).

Most people have forgotten this (if the ever knew) but the airman certification standards (formerly practical test standards) for the private pilot cert require you to land at your intended aim point -0/+400' in order to pass the check ride. That's not a short field landing, that's just your average get it on the ground landing. That's exactly 2 runway stripes. Pretty hard to do if you don't have good airspeed control!
 
I typically enter the pattern at 90kts , base 80 kts, final 70 kts, and touch down around 55 kt. I've seen no benefit in flying a super slow pattern, it runs up more hobbs time and I have a soaked shirt when its 100 degrees outside. :D

Pretty much exactly how I fly it. My 9 is a little heavier than most at 1200 pounds and that's probably why it warrants a little extra speed. I find any slower than 70 on final and I end up flaring the thing. It does not like to be flared. Just flow it level till the mains tough then set the nose down gently.
 
85 knots on downwind
Reduce power to idle abeam the threshold, trim for 75
Hold 75 on base
Reduce speed to 65 on final
55 over the fence
Touchdown at 45

Keeps the traffic flow moving

Fly a tight pattern. Generally don?t need to touch the throttle after the initial reduction.

0-320
Catto 3 blade fixed pitch
 
Flaps

If everybody responding could please also detail flaps use with speeds in the pattern, that gives a more complete picture. Thanks
 
If everybody responding could please also detail flaps use with speeds in the pattern, that gives a more complete picture. Thanks

For sure, landing speeds absent flap settings aren’t all that helpful. Beyond that, and irrespective of flap settings, given differences in instrument, pitot, and static system errors, all these indicated airspeeds reported above are not really transferable from one plane to the next. Even in my own -9, the Dynon indicates one IAS and my steam ASI reads 5 kts less. Much more helpful are IAS speeds as a multiple of Vso. For example, I find that an approach speed of 1.3-1.35 Vso yields very consistent short field landings. For me, that works out to about 52-55 kts solo. However, another plane with a different IAS error could find 52-55kts dangerously slow.

Long and short, the stall speed for any individual plane should be determined first, then approach speeds based off that. All of us reporting the different IASs we use doesn’t tell us too much.
 
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Pretty much exactly how I fly it. My 9 is a little heavier than most at 1200 pounds and that's probably why it warrants a little extra speed. I find any slower than 70 on final and I end up flaring the thing. It does not like to be flared. Just flow it level till the mains tough then set the nose down gently.
What is in your -9 to have a such a high EW? Mine is 1068, all up, and that was after I replaced the O-290D2 with an O-360 and added a leather interior. On its first flight, it was only 990 lbs.
 
What is in your -9 to have a such a high EW? Mine is 1068, all up, and that was after I replaced the O-290D2 with an O-360 and added a leather interior. On its first flight, it was only 990 lbs.

It?s my first RV and it has a lot of options. Tru track, tip tanks, heated leather seats, full leather interior, dual grt setup, io-360 with a 3 blade Catto, I would assume it all adds up. My tip tanks alone added prob 15 pounds but the extra 18 gallons is worth it!
 
Quote: "There is nothing wrong with flying the entire pattern at 5 knots above stall speed as long as you are not making everyone behind you extend and adjust their pattern....... I sure hope you are flying a tight pattern.[/QUOTE]

I would be leary of flying the whole pattern at 5 knots above stall speed. That brings with it the risk of an accelerated stall in the turns to base and final. I fly the downwind at 1700 RPM, when abeam the numbers I pull to idle while maintaining altitude to slow to Flap Speed. Go to 1200 and fly the remainder trimed for 70 knot base and 60 knot final. Flare to 50 knots for touchdown. I have my idle set below 600 RPM to cut down on float. Practice engine out from various locations in the pattern.
 
Quote: "There is nothing wrong with flying the entire pattern at 5 knots above stall speed as long as you are not making everyone behind you extend and adjust their pattern....... I sure hope you are flying a tight pattern.

I would be leary of flying the whole pattern at 5 knots above stall speed. That brings with it the risk of an accelerated stall in the turns to base and final. I fly the downwind at 1700 RPM, when abeam the numbers I pull to idle while maintaining altitude to slow to Flap Speed. Go to 1200 and fly the remainder trimed for 70 knot base and 60 knot final. Flare to 50 knots for touchdown. I have my idle set below 600 RPM to cut down on float. Practice engine out from various locations in the pattern.[/QUOTE]

Van's list the stall speed for a -9(A) as 48 to 50 mph. Let's call it 50 mph/42.5 Knots for those who can split a knot.

Typically, it is recommended to approach at 1.3 times the stall speed.

30% above the stall speed is 65mph / 55 knots, which is what I recommend.

Watching my AoA during a slow pattern, doesn't even get close to stall.

The advantage to a constant speed pattern in a slick, high lift airplane like a FP RV-9 is that you aren't chasing the airspeed every time you make a flap and pitch adjustment.

Also, I suspect you are spending less time in the pattern because your pattern, out of necessity, is smaller.

My goal on every landing is to make one power reduction and never touch the throttle again.
 
My goal on every landing is to make one power reduction and never touch the throttle again.

Same here. I like to make the power reduction, usually to idle abeam the numbers, and stage my flaps in as required by my position and energy to arrive on energy at the threshold. It's a judgement call and sometimes you miss, but I try to miss large and bleed the extra energy at an altitude of 1 foot. It doesn't take long with full flaps and a constant speed prop on the fine pitch blocks. "On Energy" by the way may look differently every time - might be a smooth flat arrival or fast dirty shuttle approach - but the goal is the same. Arrive at the threshold with the correct airspeed in the correct configuration and altitude. It's a dance.
 
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I'm with you Greg!

You are spoiled by that CS prop. With a FP prop, speed control becomes critical because it is very easy to speed up and very difficult to slow down.
 
I'm with you Greg!

You are spoiled by that CS prop. With a FP prop, speed control becomes critical because it is very easy to speed up and very difficult to slow down.

:D

Now if we could just convince you to put one on your plane, and move the little wheel back where it belongs, you could have a great flying machine too. :cool:

*runs for cover...*
 
:D

Now if we could just convince you to put one on your plane, and move the little wheel back where it belongs, you could have a great flying machine too. :cool:

*runs for cover...*

What can I say? I'm a conventional kind of guy.
 
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