For motor heads only

My apologies, I have asked this before, but the thread drifted, and I never really got an answer. I will try to not sound like a jerk here, and I hope it doesn't come across that way, but I'm afraid it might anyway, so sorry if it sounds that way. I ask this with hat in hand.

I will be buying my engine and prop soon when the Oshkosh specials begin. Regardless of which engine I buy, I will be removing factory new parts and will install an EFII system. I already have my cowling, so my end solution will absolutely have horizontal induction. I understand the Lycoming model numbers and what they mean, and I have already purchased the EFII system, and I will not be keeping the factory parts. I have fuel pumps installed, and return fuel lines plumbed, so the factory fuel pump and injectors are going. I am not asking if I should go EFII or not, or have a debate about one type or another. So that is not the question I am asking.

My choices are either:
O-360 180HP (Part# EA XO-360-A1A RT) normal Vans price of $27.7k
Remove and sell Carb
Remove and sell Fuel Pump
Remove and sell Magnetos
Convert from Vertical to Horizontal induction
Install EFII
or
IO-360 180HP (Part# EA-XIO-360-M1B RT) normal Vans price of $29.7k
Remove and sell factory fuel injectors and fuel servo
Remove and sell Fuel Pump
Remove and sell Magnetos
Install EFII

In both cases, the prop will be an MT O-360 72" 3 Blade (hydraulic pitch change), Vans Part# PROP MTV12B/183-59B and both will have both a primary and backup alternator. I am considering replacing the sump with a Superior Cold Induction sump. If that makes sense to do now vs. later because of the other work, I would do it. If it doesn't matter now vs. later, I will probably wait. The difference between the two engines is $2k. But with the O-360, I need to convert the induction, and would have fewer parts to sell.

I have a vague notion, but no details in terms of effort or parts to converting a factory FI system into an EFII, and the market of selling new parts. Yes, I will be removing the factory injectors, and FI servo, and replacing it with the EFII. But I don't yet know what else I need to buy.

I know either path can be made to work.

My question is, which path makes more sense, buying the O-360 and converting it to horizontal induction and EFII, or the IO-360 and just converting it to EFII?

Are there any other compelling reasons other than money to go one way or another?

Get what you need

I bought a Superior 0360 from Dart for 18,600 delivered and needs assembly. This came without ignition and injection. Add your stuff and have someone assemble it.

cdeerinck said:

I already have my cowling, so my end solution will absolutely have horizontal induction.
My question is, which path makes more sense, buying the O-360 and converting it to horizontal induction and EFII, or the IO-360 and just converting it to EFII?

Click to expand...

My .02 cents - I'd go with the IO360. It already has the Horz induction and you'll have less to remove/sell/replace. No need to replace the sump and intake tubes from vert. to horz. as you would if you went O-360 route. All else seems the same in work load to me.

I'd think if you had a complete factory FI setup to sell, including the horiz sump and intake tubes, that would be a desirable package for someone. And, that way you can get that aftermarket cold-air sump you know you want! Those guys should be able to weld in injector bosses too.

Heinrich

hgerhardt said:

I'd think if you had a complete factory FI setup to sell, including the horiz sump and intake tubes, that would be a desirable package for someone. And, that way you can get that aftermarket cold-air sump you know you want! Those guys should be able to weld in injector bosses too.

Heinrich

Click to expand...

I would think that more would want to upgrade with all the "IO" parts as well. Aren't you going to use the new boss injector location on the heads - into the injector ports? Ross and Dave think highly of the sky dynamics intake.

Example of differences

I just came across an example of the differences between the two that was the kind of thing I was asking for.

It appears the M1B has a rear mounted CS governor, and the A1A has it front mounted. This would change the length of the required CS cable. Being in the rear, the governor on the M1B is much harder to access.

Talk to your EFII supplier

I'd talk to whomever you are buying the EFII system from, and see what they recommend.

There are a lot of engine builders that will start from wherever you want, as Larry suggested.

My prop controller is on the back, and it does not seem to be an issue, and I did notice that Van's suggests an engine with the prop controller on the front for the RV-14, so you would have good support for that option too.

rv8ch said:

I'd talk to whomever you are buying the EFII system from, and see what they recommend.

Click to expand...

I did, and they said "either way". Not much of a recommendation. It doesn't matter based on what they are doing.

As far as "my engine builder", I was planning on buying a new Lycoming from Vans during the Oshkosh specials. With the discount they offer, and the combo engine/prop $1k savings, it comes pretty close to the same price as buying a rebuild from someone else, and I would prefer a Lycoming over other brands, mostly due to their longevity, and sometimes FAA politics (whereby the FAA is unfair to another brand, and the owners pay the price).

I haven't even bothered trying to figure out yet if the Thunderbolt option makes sense.

There is more to that story:

cdeerinck said:

I just came across an example of the differences between the two that was the kind of thing I was asking for.

It appears the M1B has a rear mounted CS governor, and the A1A has it front mounted. This would change the length of the required CS cable. Being in the rear, the governor on the M1B is much harder to access.

Click to expand...

If I can recall the Lyc setups, the fwd gov 4 cyl engines also have a counter weighted crankshaft? That would be a good thing!

That fwd gov engine would also have a different gov drive ratio (same as the 540?) - pay attention to that when ordering the governor.

Carry on!
Mark

I think your first question should be to the engine manufacturer to determine if the warranty will be valid after you make your changes.
I am NOT saying do not do it, just be informed.
I have an EFII system on an IO-340 stroker I put together from parts I bought from Airpower. Thanks Ken! I did everything I could without re-engineering everything to make this engine light as possible, i.e it's all "store bought".
The specs are as follows:
340 stroker kit (9:1 pistons vice 8.3:1), ECI case, taper fin cylinders, and pretty much everything else, Superior cold air sump, EFII valve covers (they look soooo nice), Lycoming cam kit, No idler for right mag (just a blankoff plate where the idler mount went) and no fuel pump pushrod. I removed the studs from all accessory pads and installed blank offs. B&C 60A alt, and lightweight starter.
I also plan to use the EFII lightweight flywheel. All in all this was considerably less expensive than buying an assembled engine albeit no warranty.
Another thing you might want to consider with the EFII is a cold air sump. Don't need your intake air runners warmed by the engine oil with the EFII system. Not sure what your requirements are but ECI (Continental) offers taper fin cylinders which are a bit lighter than standard cylinders and they do make a baffle for these cylinders.
The Titan O-340 is rated at 180 hp with a carb and mags.
I would love to dyno this engine but....
By the way it's going in a Kitfox model 5.
I would post pics but I am not allowed to post attachments.

cdeerinck said:

I just came across an example of the differences between the two that was the kind of thing I was asking for.

It appears the M1B has a rear mounted CS governor, and the A1A has it front mounted...

Click to expand...

The XO-360-A1A has a front-mount governor? Are you certain? The non-X-A1A has it in the rear, I'm fairly certain.