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Flaps on landing

Bwing96

Active Member
I did a search and found more info on using flaps for take-off than landing. Does everybody use full flaps on landing all the time? I used to like landing my Cherokee with 2 notches rather than full, it just worked better for me. Years ago I rarely used flaps when wheel landing the Citabria.

Yesterday I took my 6 up to 4k and pulled the throttle to idle deployed full flaps and tried to stall without drasticaly raising the nose and it just kept flying at 40 mph. Might be why it wheel lands better with one on board and 3 points better with 2.
 
Does everybody use full flaps on landing all the time?

I did, regardless of wind conditions. RVs are slick, and IMO can use all the drag they can get in the landing configuration.

Might be why it wheel lands better with one on board and 3 points better with 2.

Since the 6 is side-by-side, and CG doesn't vary with a passenger, I assume your observation is a result of flying the same approach speed both ways, and simply floating less with a passenger vs. solo. Fly your approach a little slower solo, and it should 3-point just the same.
 
Times I do not use Full Flap:
1. Long Runway and I start approach in enough time not to need the drag
2. Strong X-Wind / long hard runway when I'll just use half. A wheeler landing is fine, but once the tail comes down there is talk the flaps mask the rudder to an extent, and make the ground loop more likely as the tail comes down. Alternative is to raise the flaps while the tail is up...

I would not like to say point 2 is "proven", but in my experience, there might be some validity in it.
 
I did, regardless of wind conditions. RVs are slick, and IMO can use all the drag they can get in the landing configuration.



Since the 6 is side-by-side, and CG doesn't vary with a passenger, I assume your observation is a result of flying the same approach speed both ways, and simply floating less with a passenger vs. solo. Fly your approach a little slower solo, and it should 3-point just the same.

Solo I usually fly my approach at 80, cross the numbers at 70 with passenger I'll try to fly 85 and cross the numbers at 75.
 
40mph?

Yesterday I took my 6 up to 4k and pulled the throttle to idle deployed full flaps and tried to stall without drasticaly raising the nose and it just kept flying at 40 mph.

40mph? Is that mushing down in the stall? I've tried the 'falling leaf' in my -6 many times, but I've only been able 'ride' it with the rudder for a short while before it gets away from me and violently falls off to one side and I recover the stall. Doubt I've ever gotten it down 40mph. I don't know if that's my airframe or my skill set.

OTOH if you're indicating 40mph w/o being fully stalled, something must be amiss in your static/pitot system, which might in turn be causing you to fly your approaches/landings too fast, which in turn seems to be the cause of a lot of -6 landing difficulty, in my experience.

Might be why it wheel lands better with one on board and 3 points better with 2.

I also find this to be true. I can wheel land at idle solo, but generally carry a touch of power when heavy.

I do use full flaps. On my way down to 80mph ias late in the downwind I put in full flaps all at once.

-jon
 
Since the 6 is side-by-side, and CG doesn't vary with a passenger, I assume your observation is a result of flying the same approach speed both ways, and simply floating less with a passenger vs. solo. Fly your approach a little slower solo, and it should 3-point just the same.

Solo I usually fly my approach at 80, cross the numbers at 70 with passenger I'll try to fly 85 and cross the numbers at 75.[/QUOTE]

The CG in the 6 does shift aft with a passenger. Its not as dramatic as a 4 or 8 but there is a CG shift and it has a noticeable effect on landings in my aircraft.

George
 
Full Flaps

I use full flaps and 3 point almost every time in my -4, solo and with pax. My reasoning is that it will provide the lowest possible touchdown speed, and shortest rollout..less wear/tear on everything.At my home airport, that works to make mid runway taxi-way every time with minimal braking if any, and so I am somewhat conditioned to that configuration...I practice half flap and no flap landings occasionally just to stay competent in all configs.I prefer short/close patterns at small airports and find I can easily enter crosswind / downwind at 150 mph and bleed it off in the turns with power back to idle. I usually roll the flaps in almost all at once when I get down to 100mph. I have electric flaps/ trim with buttons on stick, so I am able to have hands on stick/throttle and eyes outside...makes it a little easier in the short pattern.
 
This must be a tail dragger concern

The focus is so different it threw me for a minute - Interesting.

Full flaps every time, aircraft in the same configuration every landing, unless circumstances are such that I had to get it down in a situation resulting in above flap speed close to the runway then I just leave the flaps up and slip as required to burn off speed.

Bob Axsom
 
Flaps all out at once as soon as I am slow enough on downwind every flight. 75kts base, 70kts final, I stop looking at the ASI when I am over the fence and I know I have the field made. Slips used anytime I need a little more decent rate/fine tuning the final without blowing up my speed. I imagine that is going to change a little bit here in a few days when my CS prop gets hung on the nose....I don't expect to need the slips as much after the swap.
 
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Similar to Brantel. RV-7, full flap out on down wind and abeam the aiming point, full flap wheel landing in all conditions including cross winds up to 27 knots. Keep the formula simple.
 
Flaps/Landings

Agree with fixnflyguy.

If you have 5,000' you can do whatever you want no problem; flaps, no flaps.

My home field is 2,165' with a wacky approach end downdraft sinker (our approach end is the terminus of an ascending slope with typical sweeping downdraft), crosswinds, gusty buffets and excitement typical in the afternoons. If I exceeded 80mph with no headwind at our field I would probably go off the end especially on a hot day floating. The difference between 65 and 80 over the numbers is amazing especially on a short field.

IMHO The slower you touch (or plop in my case:) ) down, the safer.

Also, I always try to land zero power beginning on downwind, full flaps as short field as possible just for practice in case of an actual emergency situation. (I usually end up needing a little power short final at the home field because it's so short and you can't be hot over the numbers.)

For me what works is: 100mph downwind, 80mph base/final, flaps, bleed off to about 65 short final to over the numbers. (my VSO indicated is about 52mph)



Cheers,
 
Hi Guys,

I am following pretty much the technique described by 'Remag', full flaps abeam threshold, down final at 70 knots and can 3 point it nicely pretty much all the time when I am paying attention.

However wheelers in my RV7 are still bothering me as the undercarriage is so springy and so 9 times out of 10 I am airborne again before I can react by apply forward stick, any advice on how to stick a wheeler?

Cheers
 
Hi Guys,

I am following pretty much the technique described by 'Remag', full flaps abeam threshold, down final at 70 knots and can 3 point it nicely pretty much all the time when I am paying attention.

However wheelers in my RV7 are still bothering me as the undercarriage is so springy and so 9 times out of 10 I am airborne again before I can react by apply forward stick, any advice on how to stick a wheeler?

Cheers

Eddie:

I also had a similar problem you did with wheel landing in my -6.

Try not to trim off stick pressure after you put out the flaps and do not use more than 3/4 flaps. (~30 degrees on my airplane) I find it more difficult to do wheel landings with full flaps.

If you are still having problems, try finding a long runway were you can practice flying down the runway touch the wheels to land, add a little power to get flying again, then slow down to get the main wheels back on. I use to do that at a 6,000' plus runway. Could do 3 or 4 practice touching the mains then going around. Sorta like doing 3 or 4 touch and goes on one approach.
 
I would be interested in what some 9A and 9's do regarding flaps since that is what I fly. I landed at my home airport the other day with a 20 kt. quartering headwind. I used half flaps because of the wind and crossed the numbers at 70 kts. It just kept wanting to float forever before finally settling on to the runway. I would imagine the longer flaps and different airfoil would land different than the others.
 
I dump,full flaps abeam the numbers in the -9A and trim/power for 58-60 kias. It glides perfectly from 1,000 agl to a 45 turn to base, then final and touchdown with ashore float before touchdown. Haven't done strong crosswinds in the -9A, but in the -10 I use half flaps and an extra 5 knots over the fence. In insane and gusty crosswinds, I would leave flaps up and keep speed up and plan to land on a long runway (3,000ft).
 
Thinking cautiously

Once at OSH I was chatting with a guy who was even older than I am. We were comparing techniques for the C-150. He said he always landed without flaps so that he'd know how to do it if the flap motor failed. Hmm, I thought..

So I started doing it both ways in my 150 and learned a little more about flying and landing it.

The 150 went to a good home after I finished my 7A, but I still practice with half flaps and even no flaps when the opportunity is there. When I was practicing instrument approaches I flew them with no flaps at 100 KIAS so as to make go-arounds easier and safer. I usually use only half flaps in a strong xwind because the speed is higher and thus the xw component is lower as a proportion of the speed and that means less crab or wing-dip. It also gives me a better margin of lift for vertical gusts that often come with strong xw.

The RV needs flaps to get the speed down to more reasonable levels - more than the 150 by a considerable amount. But the flaps are electric and I did have them fail to deploy once already. I never did find out why; they never did it again. They could.

I totally agree that landings should be stable and the landing routine should be well understood and practiced, but being ready for a no-flaps landing can only make you safer.
 
I would be interested in what some 9A and 9's do regarding flaps since that is what I fly. I landed at my home airport the other day with a 20 kt. quartering headwind. I used half flaps because of the wind and crossed the numbers at 70 kts. It just kept wanting to float forever before finally settling on to the runway. I would imagine the longer flaps and different airfoil would land different than the others.


I flap fully 99% of my landings. There were couple times I couldn't land even without flaps with gusty and excessive xwind. It was blowing across almost 40 kts at an airport not far from my base. A perfect and rare opportunity to practice. A local CFI saw my struggle while taxiing for departure and said if I ever come back bring the logbook for free BFR signoff. I came 30 minutes later but he was gone :)
 
Most of my non-RV time is in various single engine Cessnas. In the C182, R182, and C210 in particular I found many occasions when partial flap landings were my choice. If there is no weight in the back and you have full flaps it is a bit of a struggle to land mains first. You can do it but it takes a pretty massive heave on the yoke and, to me, just doesn't feel very natural. Half flaps is a great remedy for that.

In my RV-6 it is completely different. No matter the loading the stick forces are light. The main concern is the forces may get a bit too light with aft loading. So it is kind of the reverse of the Cessna situation. I always want full flaps for drag and visibility and for aft loading I would wish for a bit more flaps. Three point is the choice in every situation.

As for certain flap settings and speeds at different places in the pattern, that stuff has always puzzled me a bit. I know I want full flaps and a certain speed on short final and want some flap at the power reduction point on downwind, for visibility and drag. Otherwise I don't see how any of that matters in the least as long as the speed is enough to present no threat of a stall.
 
Eddie:

I also had a similar problem you did with wheel landing in my -6.

Try not to trim off stick pressure after you put out the flaps and do not use more than 3/4 flaps. (~30 degrees on my airplane) I find it more difficult to do wheel landings with full flaps.

If you are still having problems, try finding a long runway were you can practice flying down the runway touch the wheels to land, add a little power to get flying again, then slow down to get the main wheels back on. I use to do that at a 6,000' plus runway. Could do 3 or 4 practice touching the mains then going around. Sorta like doing 3 or 4 touch and goes on one approach.

Thanks Gary,

That is a really neat idea about not trimming out the stick forces, I'll try that next time and also try the 30 degrees of flap rather than 40 degrees.

Cheers
 
Landing the 9A

In my 9A I typically get below 80kts abeam the numbers and put out one notch of flaps. This helps to slow to 65-70 kts IAS. Second notch of flaps around downwind to base turn. Using the AOA, keeping the green bar at the doughnut, my airspeed will be somewhere between 62-68 kts depending on my loading, maneuvering/turning, and the density altitude. If I find myself really high on final, full flaps and it will drop like a rock. Plenty of energy left for a nice flair using the AOA. I like to land with half flaps 99% of the time since keeping the nose wheel off is easier in this configuration. I like Bitching Betty to be screaming "ANGLE, ANGLE, PUSH" when I am about a foot off the ground. This results in very consistent squeakers and a short roll-out.


Steve Johnson
524SJ
Abilene, Texas.
 
Almost always full flaps on landing. Rare exceptions for wheel landings with a strong crosswind and long(er) runway. Been awhile since I made a no flap landing, but good reminder for some tune up training.

I agree that in almost all situations, the extra drag from full flaps helps with getting things slowed down and settled on the runway.

I also don't "get" the 40 mph speed. That is 35 knots. I stall with full flaps at 46 knots. Now I'm worried I have a problem!
 
I suspect a large static position error. These planes don't vary much from Van's published numbers.
 
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