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Grass Strip/Performance

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Geeman

Well Known Member
I am considering purchasing some property that I can put a 1500 foot grass strip on. There are 50' trees at both ends. Is this doable with an RV-7 180 hp with constant speed prop. I know wind and density altitude plays a part, buts lets just say no wind, 1000' DA, and gross weight.

Thanks in advance for your input.
 
Geeman said:
some property that I can put a 1500 foot grass strip on it
Click to expand...

There are two things to work on. First, find out if you really *can* you put on a grass strip. Next, practice at a longer field.

I just spent 7 months of politics and paperwork getting my strip. Until the very end, there was no guarantee I'd get approval for the strip and at many points others had the power to say 'no'.

Assuming you have the 1500' strip, you can fly an RV off and on but from my experience on 1900' it will require discipline. I have 70' trees at on end and must come in pretty slow. If I'm setting a personal minimum of 1500' of runway, and if I'm 5kts fast, I can expect a go-around.

If you're trees are right at the end of the strip, you won't get 1500' to work with on landings.

A good test is to pick a local field and practice using only 1500' over an imaginary tree right at the threshold.
 
Geeman said:
I know wind and density altitude plays a part, buts lets just say no wind, 1000' DA, and gross weight.
Click to expand...

I've been flying out of my 1500' strip for quite a few years. BUT, I have clear approaches. If your trees are right at the runway end, I would be uncomfortable with 1500'.
No wind is NOT worst case. A 90? cross wind is worst case.
 
Hmmmmm

Mel said:
I've been flying out of my 1500' strip for quite a few years. BUT, I have clear approaches. If your trees are right at the runway end, I would be uncomfortable with 1500'.
No wind is NOT worst case. A 90? cross wind is worst case.
Click to expand...

Whew, glad to see I am not the only one with the same opinion. I fly from a 2400 ft grass strip and it's no sweat. But, with trees on the ends of a 1500 ft strip I think I would wait until about 2:00 am then go for a walk with my chain saw. Just sayin...
 
I was also thinking this would not be long enough and the comments have confirmed what I already figured.

There are some 50 foot pine trees close to the fence line on the north side of the property. Beyond that it is a large open field for several thousand feet. I am going to talk the owners behind me and feel them out about cutting the trees down. If that pans out, I would have one end wide open. The strip would be oriented North/South with the prevailing winds from the south a good part of the year. During the winter we get some north winds during cold fronts.

Let's say you had a 15 to 20 knot head wind landing to the north, with 50' trees about 100' from the south end of the 1500' runway. With a good headwind, would this give an adequate margin?

If the wind was out of the north at say about 10 knots, I could land from the north with the tailwind, but no trees to clear (assuming the neigbors would go for it). Would this be enough margin?

My home field is a grass strip about 15 miles away and I could practice all I wanted. I obviously dont want to go to the expense to build the runway and not be able to use it.

I have purchased a RV-7 partially completed kit and it will probably be 2 or 3 years before I am flying the RV. I own a C172. I know they are extremely different, but how do they compare as far as landing distance. Could I practice landing in the C172 as short as possible and expect similiar landing distances in the RV?

More opinions?
 
two things come to my mind:

if there are trees in the approach path (as we have at our homebase), expect also turbulence on final, which may require you to carry a few extra knots.

and secondly, a grass field can be very soggy, so ground run required can vary considerably!

based on your description i would not operate at mtow in and out of there (besides staying off of grass with our -7A anyway).

may be a different story if you can have totally clear stopends where overrun would not be a biggie or even pave the strip.

bernie
 
Landing with a tail wind will really eat up that runway. Even without approach end trees, I don't think I'd be comfortable comming in 10kts faster onto 1500'

I am not as good a pilot as many others here. I can say, I am still dialing in my landings on 1900'. Its only been a few flights and I still pull out the "go around" card if my speed is not right on the mark.
 
Just my opinion.

Geeman said:
Let's say you had a 15 to 20 knot head wind landing to the north, with 50' trees about 100' from the south end of the 1500' runway. With a good headwind, would this give an adequate margin?
Never depend on a headwind!

If the wind was out of the north at say about 10 knots, I could land from the north with the tailwind, but no trees to clear (assuming the neigbors would go for it). Would this be enough margin?
Never land downwind on a short strip!
Click to expand...
Words added.
 
options

I also would look for a better option (flying is all about options). I am living a dream on the 2400 ft strip I mentioned above but, there have been lots of times when I could not fly, not because of runway length but because of crosswinds. Then, I have to be real careful to get home before dark which leads to the killer disease, "gethomitus". In my 7 I am always shocked by how much more runway I tend to use with a no wind landing or a crosswind landing versus a slight headwind. Also, a 172 slows up real nice on final, then droppping all the flaps and pointing the nose down it will still just float down like a parachute. My seven seems to be differant. It slows up well all the way around to final , but when the nose goes down, the speeds soar. The airspeed on final will also vary up and down quickly. You really have to stay ahead of the airplane landing on short strips. I've heard it said, "The RV's are little hot rods".

Frankly, if it were me I just don't think I would "enjoy flying" from that small of a strip. But, you're not me.
 
A case

One of the high ranking program managers (higher than Project) where I worked, loved flying and he developed a strip on his ranch in California where he looked forward to retirement. I'm sure a lot of performance evaluation was involved. He flew a Cessna that he owned for a long time (might have been a 180). Very shortly after retirement (it seems like only weeks) he clipped a tree on departure, crashed and was burned to death. Mel, seems to have the best insight here. I have flown our RV-6A into and out of grass strips and the performance is OK but unless there is some compelling need I simply would not do it.

Bob Axsom
 
Kyle

I fly C172s and my RV6 from a 2100 ft grass strip.

I can land the RV much shorter than that - but not always - so wouldn't be comfortable with anything less.

The 172 and tail wheel RV6 land very differently. You fly the 6 onto the ground which can take up quite a distance depending on how well you judge the flare. A full flapped 172 lands like Mary Poppins with her umbrella by comparison.

Jim Sharkey
 
trees

I'll clarify my previous comment ..."I think evetually you'll bend your airplane".

After you learn to wear that RV, you can fly in and out of a 1500 foot strip with absolutley no problem and safely to boot. My problem with your set up is the trees on both ends. If you can get one approach open, you'll have a doable situation. If both ends have trees, "I think eventually you'll bend your airplane". Just be safe and learn to fly that thing very well.
 
I've seen the kinds of trees that grow in the areas northeast of Houston up close and personal. A 1500' strip closely surrounded by those kinds of trees would be a great runway.... for a Zenith CH-701/750/801 type of aircraft :D :D :D
 
I interpret what I'm reading about RV as the same as my training in a Piper Arrow...maybe wrong, but read many a post...

I just got my complex endorsement. Flew 172/152 only and the biggest change for me was flying the arrow to the ground with little pitch up. Just a lot differnent. Will be interesting to get a ride in an RV to see the landing attitude...

Any takers in the York, PA area??? :>)




jsharkey said:
Kyle

I fly C172s and my RV6 from a 2100 ft grass strip.

I can land the RV much shorter than that - but not always - so wouldn't be comfortable with anything less.

The 172 and tail wheel RV6 land very differently. You fly the 6 onto the ground which can take up quite a distance depending on how well you judge the flare. A full flapped 172 lands like Mary Poppins with her umbrella by comparison.

Jim Sharkey
Click to expand...
 
Geeman said:
I am considering purchasing some property that I can put a 1500 foot grass strip on. There are 50' trees at both ends. Is this doable with an RV-7 180 hp with constant speed prop. I know wind and density altitude plays a part, buts lets just say no wind, 1000' DA, and gross weight.

Thanks in advance for your input.
Click to expand...

I thought I replied to this yesterday but I must have pressed the wrong button!

I fly a -4 out of 1020' at 200'ASL. My view of what you want to do is this. The 50' trees will mean you have perhaps a similar effective length to me. Yes 10:1 is perhaps conservative descent rate after the trees, but you have to stabilise before the flair, and clear the trees. Some pilots dont need 1000' for a -4, Van I think uses 600', but most need 2000'. Your -7 stalls a little faster than a -4 so the KE is greater requiring a longer ground run, but only a little. However I would be concerned about 1000' DA and gross!

So go practice somewhere long, and when you can RELIABLY land in < 1000' have a go at approaching your 1500'; over the trees. Put a marker 500' in and see if it is beyond your aiming point. If it is you are good to go if you can always do it.

A couple of points. I always compare ASI and GPS to be sure a tail wind has not set in late on final.

You can see a couple of approaches into my 1020' if you click on 'circuits' below.

Take care!
 
Steve - I just watched your circuits. Thanks. Question - can you get into 13 over the trees or so you always land on 31? I'm intertestrd in your thoughts. I have a longer grass strip but am still not very good on the "tree approach".
 
humptybump said:
Steve - I just watched your circuits. Thanks. Question - can you get into 13 over the trees or so you always land on 31? I'm intertestrd in your thoughts. I have a longer grass strip but am still not very good on the "tree approach".
Click to expand...

Glen, I have never actually tried because without a strong headwind I would not be able to do it. I take the tail wind. When it is truly in that direction the vis is horrible normally and I dont fly much.

I used to do it in my Supercub and needed most of the runway. Interestingly, the S'cub does not land much shorter than the -4. Yes the stall speed is a little lower, but once on the ground the rolling resistance is less. I dont like to brake too hard. The KE is more.

I am sure it could be done but I have been doing less flying the last 2 years so dont feel the -4 fits like a glove. When it does I will give it a try.
 
OK...would like some more input.

I have talked to the neighbor and said it would be no problem cutting the trees at the fence line.

So here is the deal.

1500 foot long.
35/17
Winds are south southeast most of the year.
No trees on north end and 2000' of clear pasture
50' to 75' trees on south end.

Under what circumstances would this be a marginal take off or landing.

Winds from the South:

I think landing 17 wouldn't be a problem most times of the year with the wind out of the south and trees no factor.

What about taking off 17 and having to clear 75' trees. 180 hp cs prop.

Could I take off with a little bit of a tailwind on 35?

Winds from the North

No problem taking off to the north. No trees and headwind.

Landing with wind from north....I would either have to clear trees on the south end or land with tailwind no trees.

I really appreciate everyones input. Trying to decide if I want to buy this property.
 
I STRONGLY do not recommend taking off or landing with a tailwind on 1500'!

Landing to the south with trees at south end...what about having to do a go-around?

My 1500' strip has clear approaches. I'm comfortable with it. There's a railroad at the south end. If there is a train, I circle until he's gone.
I would NOT be comfortable with trees at either end; period! YMMV!
 
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Your scenario sounds ok to me, I visit a strip like this all the time, I understand Mel?s concern but the reality is that there are many one way in one way out private strips in the US. The strip I visit affords no go-around after a certain point, that point depends on the wind and the aircraft, in the summer you always have a tail wind on landing, 10 knots is to much, 5 is ok.

There are days though where all your buddies go for the $100 hamburger and you?re stuck on the ground on the account of winds.
 
You'll really need discipline.

As Mel points out, there'll be times when you're stuck because of unfavorable winds. That's when you're going have to absolutely just say no, since you placed yourself in this position, having a short strip with tall trees on one end.

None of us know your pilot skills or attitude toward disciplining yourself.....a call you'll have to make.

Best,
 
I am not a seasoned RV pilot, but I feel I have good desision making skills and do not take unnessarry risk. Before I ever landed on this strip I would be 100% sure and can practice all I want on my current home strip that is 2800 foot grass.

I am just trying to judge if this property is viable for a runway. I would not even build the runway for a few years down the road. I have two longer strips available close by so there is no reason I would have to land if the winds were not favorable. With the winds calm in the morning, taking off to the north would probably be the norm. If coming home the winds were not favorable, I could land about 4 miles away at my current home airport. I could even move the plane there before a trip I expected to take if the winds were forcasting unfavorable.

The most likely scenerio is

Take off in morning with calm wind.

Land into the southwind later in the day with no trees on northside of runway.

I think this would take care of 75% of the flying.

I geuss the other 25% I would have to move the plane in the evening with calm winds to the airport down the street or not fly, which I am prepared to do if it is not safe.

More thoughts.
 
Well, Mel, your right....the winds the last few months have been higher than normal. I geuss my plane would have had to be down the street lately.

On that note. With a 180 hp cs speed prop, what kind of tailwind would you not be comfortable to take off on a 1500' strip that has a clear approach.

Thanks again for everyones input as I am on the fence as to purchasing this property.
 
Geeman said:
Well, Mel, your right....the winds the last few months have been higher than normal. I geuss my plane would have had to be down the street lately.

On that note. With a 180 hp cs speed prop, what kind of tailwind would you not be comfortable to take off on a 1500' strip that has a clear approach.

Thanks again for everyones input as I am on the fence as to purchasing this property.
Click to expand...

Kyle,

Feeling comfortable taking off with a tail wind in any airplane is a matter of performance data. The problem with doing it in an RV is there is no tail wind take off performance data to settle the matter. It could be developed but factors such as runway slope, surface condition and wind would be a part of the end result. No one has spent the time or money to gather such data.

So to answer your question, unless there is a declaration of war and the RV's are an operational unit participating in the action, I wouldn't do it - not off of 1500' turf strip. A 90 degree cross wind can screw you not to think of a tail wind.

It will cost some dough to develop that 1500' strip, the end result might not be too great....that's what would be on my mind.
 
Geeman said:
Well, Mel, your right....the winds the last few months have been higher than normal. I geuss my plane would have had to be down the street lately.
On that note. With a 180 hp cs speed prop, what kind of tailwind would you not be comfortable to take off on a 1500' strip that has a clear approach.
Click to expand...

As I stated before, I would not be comfortable with any tailwind in a 1500' strip. In my years of operation off my 1500' strip, I've had a wind shift at the last moment to a slight tailwind a few times. Even a SMALL tailwind can become exciting with 1500'.
 
I?m surprised to hear you guys say you would never takeoff with a tail wind, I learned to fly on a one way strip and currently visit a different one often, in a Cessna 150 we where always happy to have a head wind for takeoff and a tail wind for landing, for the RV I would rather see a headwind for landing and a tail wind for takeoff, One reason no one probably has done a study to find the performance #s for RVs is because they perform so well it?s usually not an issue.

I think comfort levels vary from no way never to what?s the big deal, you have to make the final call for yourself.
 
Kyle,

I'm getting the feeling you are looking for the blessing of pilots here. I don't think that's to happen.

Assuming you already have the RV-7, my advice is to go find a really long grass strip and practice. I think you'll get a good feel for your skill level now and you can work on your abilities. You'll also knowvwhat the plane can do.

To the topic of a tailwind, I've flown a number of planes and done some landings with a light tailwind. However, most of those were because it was a big busy airport so a big runway. Also, all of those planes were slower in flight and flare compared to an RV. For me, the big eye opener when I transitioned into the RV was the sink rate when an plane got slow. With a tailwind, "slow" is still fast relative to the ground so you are sinking *and* using up runway.
 
Russ McCutcheon said:
I’m surprised to hear you guys say you would never takeoff with a tail wind,
Click to expand...

I didn't say I would never take off with a tailwind. I said I would be uncomfortable with a tailwind on a 1500' strip! And I would never encourage anyone to do it.
If you are comfortable with that, fine. I'm not!
 
My 2ps worth...

We have ~1600', slope uphill from each end to middle, and curved / slightly obstructed approaches each end.

Flying is about risk management - and sometimes that might boil down to increasing risk (take off with a tailwind) in one area, but reducing it by, say, only doing it rarely.

If however, you "commit" to do this regularly, then the risk can become significant. Always have a Plan B:
  • Takeoff with Tailwind - what if engine fails? Rule 1 of an engine failure is to land (crash?) into wind for survivability. Taking off with a tailiwind now means you have a long period of being committed to force land with a tailwind.
  • Landing tailwind due trees other end. As said above, what about the "Go Around"? When are you committed to land? Due the slope at our strip, the "Go-No Go decision is mid-strip (start of downhill portion). We need to be on the ground by that point, good braking being achieved, or throw it away. That has been done 2-3 times already. I would not want the "committing point" to be prior touchdown.
To be more specific, RV-7/8 with decent engine and C/S prop, takeoff is a minor issue. It will be airborne quickly, climb steeply etc. Landing is the issue - the flaps do not create a lot of drag, so "steep" low IAS approaches are not possible (e.g. compared to a C172).

Andy & Ellie Hill
RV-8 G-HILZ
RV8tors
 
Humptybump,

I am not looking for a blessing. I am capable of making my own decisions. I am looking for real world experience with RV's flying out of 1500' strips so that I can make an informed decision. I am also not going to do it if it is not safe.

I am starting an RV-7 project that is in about quickbuild stage. I am a few years from flying it, but am evaulating this property now.

If I had a flying RV-7 I would probably not even have posted this because I would be flying out of my home base and could make the decision for my self after much practice.

As far as practicing on a long grass strip, I already mentioned that I would in a previous post. My current home base is on a 2800' grass strip that is 09/27.
Due to the E-W orientation, I have a strong crosswind just about evertime I land, so I will have alot of practice with crosswind landings.

I am pretty conservative when it comes to flying, but with any activity there are some people that are more conservative than others.

I ride dirt bikes for fun. Not a very safe sport. But I do it in a conservative way so that I can continue to do it for many years to come. I approach flying the same way.

If a 1500' strip can be landed and taken off while minimizing risks by only doing it with favorable winds, then that is what I am trying to determine. Again, I don't have to land here.

I appreciate all the input thus far.
 
Mel said:
I didn't say I would never take off with a tailwind. I said I would be uncomfortable with a tailwind on a 1500' strip! And I would never encourage anyone to do it.
If you are comfortable with that, fine. I'm not!
Click to expand...

Interesting, I responded to what Mel said hear and did so with complete respect yet my post was removed! So I guess if my point of view is different then his, he or some other moderator just removes it, what a nice way to have a discussion and for Geeman to hear all experiences offered!
 
Russ McCutcheon said:
Interesting, I responded to what Mel said hear and did so with complete respect yet my post was removed! So I guess if my point of view is different then his, he or some other moderator just removes it, what a nice way to have a discussion and for Geeman to hear all experiences offered!
Click to expand...

I think it's still there....... on page 3. If not, I must have forgot what you wrote earlier, as I've followed the thread. My replies get bleeped once and a while..

L.Adamson --- RV6A
 
Russ McCutcheon said:
Interesting, I responded to what Mel said hear and did so with complete respect yet my post was removed! So I guess if my point of view is different then his, he or some other moderator just removes it, what a nice way to have a discussion and for Geeman to hear all experiences offered!
Click to expand...

Hey Russ,

Your post #28 is still here, at least it is on my computer. You've always been civil and certainly are so in this thread.

Just a local observation on the subject - to each his own - but it's amazing how quick a normal take off can become a tree skimmer when coming out of a turf strip on a calm, hot day. There are days I stand outside the hangar and try to determine where the slightest bit of wind might be coming from. That little bit of headwind is nice and that little bit of tail wind sure can make a short runway shorter, especially with a FP prop. CS definitely would be better on such a day.
 
Risk vs death

Andy Hill said:
My 2ps worth...

We have ~1600', slope uphill from each end to middle, and curved / slightly obstructed approaches each end.

Flying is about risk management - and sometimes that might boil down to increasing risk (take off with a tailwind) in one area, but reducing it by, say, only doing it rarely.

If however, you "commit" to do this regularly, then the risk can become significant. Always have a Plan B:
  • Takeoff with Tailwind - what if engine fails? Rule 1 of an engine failure is to land (crash?) into wind for survivability. Taking off with a tailiwind now means you have a long period of being committed to force land with a tailwind.
  • Landing tailwind due trees other end. As said above, what about the "Go Around"? When are you committed to land? Due the slope at our strip, the "Go-No Go decision is mid-strip (start of downhill portion). We need to be on the ground by that point, good braking being achieved, or throw it away. That has been done 2-3 times already. I would not want the "committing point" to be prior touchdown.
To be more specific, RV-7/8 with decent engine and C/S prop, takeoff is a minor issue. It will be airborne quickly, climb steeply etc. Landing is the issue - the flaps do not create a lot of drag, so "steep" low IAS approaches are not possible (e.g. compared to a C172).

Andy & Ellie Hill
RV-8 G-HILZ
RV8tors
Click to expand...

I trade Foreign currency a fair amount and I am the first to admit that its playing poker with a business risk management plan over the top of it.

Its all about risk management and probability etc.

You do NOT decrease risk by doing something risky less often. Risk, real risk does not look at how often you did it. It looks at right now, today the next 10 seconds and it rolls the dice. it does not say "well you haven't done this for a while and you have been a good boy so I am going to let you get away with it, but if you do it too often then I am going to hit you with the naughty stick"

Like a soldier that only occasionally sticks his head up to look at the enemy, you only have to do it once in 20 years for the top of your head to be removed.

These are the facts of a short strip. Physics. Your aircraft has a certain weight, you will be traveling a certain speed, you have a certain amount of momentum. Make the call. The rest of the opinions on here will simply be what other people experience. Some information, some emotional attachment.

In the end it is all BS compared to the physics. Get the physics right and the probabilities are irrelevant. That is your only truth.

What everyone here is trying to say is, sometimes you don't know all the physics and any RVator wants any other RVator to have a good time and get out of the cockpit and go to their family.

Figure out your parameters, (ie practice ) expect unexpected elements (know that there are things you don't know that you don't know) and take care because your part of our community and want good things to happen to you. (we love ya no matter what ya do :) )
 
Gus...

You do NOT decrease risk by doing something risky less often
Click to expand...
I think we are talking at cross purposes :eek:

Let us say that the % of engine failure on a takeoff is 1%. The probability of you dying off doing that is normally 5%, but increased to 50% in a 10K tailwind.

Flying is your passion, maybe related to your job/income as well, social life, hobbies etc. You then need to consider taking off from a strip where a "one way" takeoff layout means taking off with a tailwind.

Doing it once carries a 0.5% chance of dying (real numbers will be somewhat less). But you are only doing it once in, say, a year, of 100 days of flying. That becomes a judgement call as to whether your hobby / passion / this event is worth taking that risk for. Over the year the hobby is not overly risky.

Now base your aircraft there, and have this 10K tailwind 50% of the time. Chance of you dying over the year is ~25%. This is getting seriously "risky".

Kyle says
If a 1500' strip can be landed and taken off while minimizing risks by only doing it with favorable winds, then that is what I am trying to determine. Again, I don't have to land here
Click to expand...
which is great. But, unlike in the "single visit" above, which can easily be confined to a sensible decision, once the aircraft is based there, it will take real "will power" to consistently make the right decision. Not taking off when the weather is otherwise good flying weather, or diverting on the way in when the next day you are away for 2 weeks, and means leaving the aircraft elsewhere, will add temptations to "push" your ground rules.

As has been frequently stated, 1500' is not the issue - most RVs can comfortably be operated in/out of that. Making it a "one way" strip, and/or losing 500' of that strip for trees, is getting marginal. We are in a similar situation, albeit not quite as bad I think - and crucially each end is useable. Local factors after the strip is established will clarify what winds work and what don't.

Andy
RV-8 G-HILZ
RV8tors
 
Russ McCutcheon said:
Interesting, I responded to what Mel said hear and did so with complete respect yet my post was removed! So I guess if my point of view is different then his, he or some other moderator just removes it, what a nice way to have a discussion and for Geeman to hear all experiences offered!
Click to expand...

Russ,

I do appreciate your input, even if the person who deleted it doesn't. I am only asking for input, as I can make my own decision.

For anyone that fly's into a short strip, your real world experience is greatly appreciated.
 
Geeman said:
Humptybump,

I am not looking for a blessing. I am capable of making my own decisions. I am looking for real world experience with RV's flying out of 1500' strips so that I can make an informed decision. I am also not going to do it if it is not safe.

I am starting an RV-7 project that is in about quickbuild stage. I am a few years from flying it, but am evaulating this property now.

If I had a flying RV-7 I would probably not even have posted this because I would be flying out of my home base and could make the decision for my self after much practice.

As far as practicing on a long grass strip, I already mentioned that I would in a previous post. My current home base is on a 2800' grass strip that is 09/27.
Due to the E-W orientation, I have a strong crosswind just about evertime I land, so I will have alot of practice with crosswind landings.

I am pretty conservative when it comes to flying, but with any activity there are some people that are more conservative than others.

I ride dirt bikes for fun. Not a very safe sport. But I do it in a conservative way so that I can continue to do it for many years to come. I approach flying the same way.

If a 1500' strip can be landed and taken off while minimizing risks by only doing it with favorable winds, then that is what I am trying to determine. Again, I don't have to land here.

I appreciate all the input thus far.
Click to expand...

Why not put a marker 800' from the start. When you can stop EVERY TIME before reaching it you will be nearly ready for your 1500' with trees.
 
Don't know!

Russ McCutcheon said:
Interesting, I responded to what Mel said hear and did so with complete respect yet my post was removed! So I guess if my point of view is different then his, he or some other moderator just removes it, what a nice way to have a discussion and for Geeman to hear all experiences offered!
Click to expand...

I assure you, I didn't delete it. You've always been very civil as far as I've seen.
 
Kyle

Thanks for taking the high road. I should have re-read the entire thread. You definitely had already said most o what I was commenting.

One thing just came to mind. Since you are building now, you have the advantage to build an RV-7 that is well suited to shorted grass strips. Build light and you will be better off than the heavy RV's out there.

Ther are also some mods. I have no hard data to provide. I've never flown an RV with and then without a mod to have an apples to apples comparison. I'd bet there are some threads already on the forums. With that said, the RV-8 I bought has the inbound wing strakes. These may do nothing. They may do nothing for a -7. These may be other mods. It's just something to keep in the back of your head as you build.

You've got lots of options. And if you keep listening to me, you'll have lots of opinions too :D

Thanks!
 
Consider another piece of land ...

The performance of the plane is probably not the key issue to me.

I would not want to have to wait for weather that suited my field to get to fly. Weather will hold you back enough as it is. Neither would I enjoy increased pucker factor everytime I lined up on final, wondering if the wind would shift -- it has been known to do that.

If you've bought the property, try to buy the trees (or land) on both ends for another 500'x100' clear cut. If not, look for another plot -- now is a good time to buy real estate.

I just built a airfield on my farm -- 100x3000 turf with a 22x2000 asphalt strip down the middle. With neighbor's row crops and hayfields on either end, there is over a mile of clean air. Footprint is around 7 acres.

I land my little plane with ease (Cherokee), a good pilot could land a serious aircraft here. I don't necessarily prove my pilotage/manhood everytime I land -- but it is fun!

Two cents from the peanut gallery (looking to buy a 7A or 9A -- too old to build).
 
Mel said:
I assure you, I didn't delete it. You've always been very civil as far as I've seen.
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Sorry Mel, I jumped the gun. One of the other moderators has openly done this to me in the past when I did not see things in the same light he did. Maybe I screwed up somehow but I thought for sure I saw it posted.
 
Kyle...

One aspect I'd consider (and hinted at above) is at "what point" would you be committed to land? It will depend on tailwind, length, trees, aircraft/engine/prop type... but you can probably make a reasonable guess at this 'design' stage.

My advice, for what it is worth, is to ensure that the "commit" point is after landing - and that landing is all wheels on the ground and braking available (not a wheel has just brushed the surface!). However good a pilot one might be, misjudgement / wind effects mean that what did seem a good approach is now floating, and I would not want a tailwind / wall of trees ahead to mean the choice was to skid into them at 30K, or try (and probably fail) to clear them at 60K on the buffet :(

Andy
RV-8 G-HILZ
RV8tors
 
Andy Hill said:
My advice, for what it is worth, is to ensure that the "commit" point is after landing - and that landing is all wheels on the ground and braking available (not a wheel has just brushed the surface!).
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What your really saying is there is a point on the runway with a strong tail wind that if you give it full power you will not be able to climb over the trees or if you give it full breaks will not be able to stop.

I suggest that these are two seperate points could do with a visual marker.

How you would place them is not a matter for experimentation and you would probably want to work it out then add 10% safety error.

Actually come to think about it you could experiment but it would have to be on another strip with a tail wind and with someone watching with "coms" to you so you can tell them at what point you got higher than the trees on the other strip.... something like that.

I would say that if you have these two mapped out then the safety of the strip goes up a considerable amount.

Any thoughts from anyone as to which point you think would come first (considering a strong tail wind)
 
Gus...

What your really saying is there is a point on the runway with a strong tail wind that if you give it full power you will not be able to climb over the trees or if you give it full breaks will not be able to stop.
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Essentially yes... but I would add that "full brakes required" is not ideal and hard to determine - I'd say anything above "moderate braking".

I suggest that these are two seperate points could do with a visual marker.
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Well, 1 marker should be enough... if you're not down by here and braking, Go Around!

Our strip is ~1600', the highest point is ~30' higher than each end, and trees etc. mean realistically you cannot touch down in the 1st 300' of each end (i.e. max Ldg Roll is 1300') - more in light winds. Our "decision" point is the mid point (where the windsock is) - if you're not slowing by then it means you now have 800' of downhill (wet?) grass to try and land properly and stop :( The advantage of the slope means if you go-around at that point you are 30' "up" already. I have 2 or 3 times "thrown it away" after touchdown, and thankful I did.

The point of my post was to ensure that the layout of the strip was such that this commit point was not prior a reasonable touchdown point, where a combination of tailwind and tall trees might lead to that.
 
These are the kind of comments I was looking for and it is much appreciated.

My gut feel right now is to build the strip in the future and use it "part time". I could keep my hanger at the 2800' grass strip close by and if conditions were not right, divert down the road. It would be an extra expense and a bit of a hassle, but cheaper than bending my airplane or myself. I might even keep my C172, and if so, I would be keeping that hanger anyway.

I welcome more input from anyone flying out of a short strip or short field take off and landing mods that my be available.
 
...and landing mods that my be available
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I'd disregard the "strakes" - reasons:
  1. I think they are RV-8 only addressing the gear leg / wing LE interface (i.e. do not even apply to the RV-8A)
  2. I cannot see how they alter the "stall speed" of the wing - what they will do is hide pre-stall buffet which might be interpreted as the stall
  3. RV's (maybe more the 8?) tend to be difficult to 3 point in part becuase the stall body angle exceeds the 3pt attitude i.e. it already stalls at a lower speed than the landing attitude, so no further "reduced stalling speed" required
Other "mods":
  1. Go for a VP Prop for drag, and if landing performance is "key", get a 3 blade prop (normally not a lot of use apart from looks, but it is draggy on landing). Just NB it is a "double edged sword" - flown poorly the drag + wing profile drag will see potentially damaging heavy landings - flown well it is helpful.
  2. Some will tell you AoA will help. I don't have one so cannot comment, other than if you are doing genuine short field landings, a good proportion of your marginal lift is from the prop / propwash i.e. you are not just flying on AoA... apart from IAS, every pitch/power/wind change will also affect AoA.
  3. Big tyres (380) will slightly increase the 3pt attitude - most aftermarket tailforks will reduce it.
  4. Ensure you get maximum flap deflection the design / build will allow.
  5. The "wedge" wingtips are, apparently best for speed - however, I am not sure if that holds for landing perf? The more modern wingtips have more area... am sure others will comment.
  6. (As already stated) keep & fly it light - leave out fancy EFIS systems (use a single light small one) / autopilots / 200HP engines. Whenever you pick a component, make weight a priority (after price) rather than a long list of "features" more applicable to an airliner / biz jet than a fun homebuilt ;)

Andy
RV-8 G-HILZ
RV8tors
 
Wet grass could cause problems with braking after rain or dew in the morning. Just another thing to consider. If it was me, I would buy more land or change airplanes. Takeoff shouldn't be a problem unless you lose power just as you get airborne but every landing will have to be perfect with no margin for error.
 
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