No rear controls, safety issue???

I know a lot of people don't have rear controls, to give the passenger more room. So lets say I'm flying along with my wife and for whatever reason, I drop dead. She wouldn't even have a chance.

I say this because this could have happened to me. I'm sure some of you may have read my post in the main forum talking about how I lost my medical due to a bleed in my brain. I'm healthy, work out, eat right, and just 2 weeks prior to the incident, I had an Air Force flight physical. All was well. This came out of no where.

It got me thinking. Lets say this bleed I had decided to wait another few years. We could have been flying along in our RV4, and then my brain bleeds. Lights out for me. If she has controls, there is a good possibility that she'd be able to get the plane on the ground and walk away from it.

Fortunately for me, I just sounded like that reporter covering the Grammies. I'm lucky.

I just wanted to see what some of your thoughts on this are.

Steve

I'd say turn your RV4 into 2 RV 3's or put a rear throttle in your RV 4!

You will have a stick back there right? In mine she would pilot the airplane over a large airport and use her left foot to pull the mixture off then using just the stick land the airplane, it might ground loop but she could probably walk away from it ok. This is all assuming she already has at the least basic flight skills.

Full controls in both seats in mine. (no brakes in back) I just hope I'm already out cold if she tries to land it though...;-)

D

This has been debated before. In a pinch, you probably can reach around the pilot to the throttle and at least pull it back to idle if you had to.

My argument for no controls in the back seat (and there were none, not even a stick, in my Rocket) was blazed in my mind during a ride I gave one of my son's friends. He asked to fly the airplane a little (RV-6) and I obliged. He immediately shoved the stick all the way over and we found ourselves staring at the ground upside down. He immediately froze and wouldn't let go of the stick. Since he was sitting next to me, I was able to get him to let go but if I was in a tandem seating arrangement, if would have been much more scarier. I also worry about a passenger jamming the stick in some way.

Just a few thoughts.

Similar experience

I was giving another pilot (newbie) a ride in a sailplane years ago. He grabbed the stick at the start of the tow and wouldn't let go. Makes flying formation a bit of a pain. Fortunately I was in back and was able to whack him with a sectional eventually. Sure surprised me though.

What the H...

f1rocket said:

This has been debated before. In a pinch, you probably can reach around the pilot to the throttle and at least pull it back to idle if you had to.

My argument for no controls in the back seat (and there were none, not even a stick, in my Rocket) was blazed in my mind during a ride I gave one of my son's friends. He asked to fly the airplane a little (RV-6) and I obliged. He immediately shoved the stick all the way over and we found ourselves staring at the ground upside down. He immediately froze and wouldn't let go of the stick. Since he was sitting next to me, I was able to get him to let go but if I was in a tandem seating arrangement, if would have been much more scarier. I also worry about a passenger jamming the stick in some way.

Just a few thoughts.

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F1rocket I respect your knowledge and experience but something is wrong with the scenario. The idiot was not set up right for flying the airplane for cruise and possible survival should you become incapacitated. I would never subject my wife to a situation without a chance of survival should anything happen to me. Reaching past the pilot and operating anything is something a resourceful and experienced pilot like yourself might be capable of doing but a layman would almost never be able to overcome the panic.

Bob Axsom

I flew sailplanes and towed then. I understand, when flying solo, how important securing seat belts, seat cushions, and anything else that could get in the way of the stick is. Even though you can brief a person 1000 times to not get in the way of the stick, people still freak.

I think I'd still want my passenger to have a chance, you know?

Steve

Incapaciated pilot checklist

If we really wanted to have pax prepared, we'd have a checklist or panel label (either would be briefed as part of the passenger briefing) that said something like :

1) Push that button to turn on the autopilot
2) Turn that radio knob to 121.5 and turn the volume up.
3) Mash that button to talk, then let go of the button.
4) Ask for help.


Of course, an RV back seater would be in a pickle since most controls would not be reachable.

I used to carry a hank of parachute cord on airliners so I could tie a disabled crew member off controls. That was pre-TSA days. Shoulder harnesses could tie a collapsed RV pilot off controls possibly.

It's just not a pretty scenario for a helpless passenger, is it?

Vern said:

If we really wanted to have pax prepared, we'd have a checklist or panel label (either would be briefed as part of the passenger briefing) that said something like :

1) Push that button to turn on the autopilot
2) Turn that radio knob to 121.5 and turn the volume up.
3) Mash that button to talk, then let go of the button.
4) Ask for help.


Of course, an RV back seater would be in a pickle since most controls would not be reachable.

I used to carry a hank of parachute cord on airliners so I could tie a disabled crew member off controls. That was pre-TSA days. Shoulder harnesses could tie a collapsed RV pilot off controls possibly.

It's just not a pretty scenario for a helpless passenger, is it?

Click to expand...

What's asking for help going to do? That's the problem, nobody can help them.

The third picture here shows my solution. The stick is available for installation. You do have to pull the pip pin and push it into the control system.

I have to say it is far from ideal since reducing power would remain a major challenge!

If I did not keep it here, I worry when a P2 who wanted a stick came along I would find I had left it behind.

I love it. That's perfect.

The issue can go both ways. I friend of mine had a passenger have a heart attack and die instantly. He slumped over and layed on the stick. Almost crashed and killed himself trying to get the dead passenger off the controls so he could get the plane under control. If there was no stick for the passenger then it would have not been an issue (except for the dead guy would still have been dead).

While I don't really think of not having rear seat conbtrols as a Safety Issue, I will agree that it is a risk trade that each pilot and passenger has to make. You can take a look at this thread for a link as to how we solved it in our RV-8:

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=16474&highlight=swizzle

(Note that Louise now regularly flies the Valkyrie from the front seat - at the time that thread was active, she was still getting used to the idea!)

Paul

A few years back one of our chapter members took a $100 burger flight in his Citabria. He was in the front and his wife was in the back.

He landed and pulled off onto the taxiway and died of a massive heart attack right there in the front seat. His wife was so wacked out by his sudden death; there is no way she could have landed the plane. Not to mention that he was ?on? the controls and she couldn?t move him. (The plane had shoulder harnesses and he still jammed the controls.)

As for trying to insert the stick in an aircraft that is moving, it is hard enough to do it when the thing is stopped on the ground; I doubt anyone will be able to put it in place while in the air.

I agree with the others, if my wife can get the RV close to the ground and slow enough, she will probably walk away from a ground loop, and the heck with the plane.

The non-pilots who fly with me most, my kids, both know how to maintain straight and level flight, follow the gps course, and reduce power to descend at 500 fpm. I am slowly introducing new skills which will help them in the unlikely event that I am incapacitated.
They enjoy being part of the flight as well.

Either way, if the pilot dies, it's going to be a **** of a time for the passenger to deal with. BUT, it's at least giving them a chance.

Every now and then, practicing the emergency would probably do wonders. Of course this would be with your regular passenger (wife). My wife wants to learn how to fly a plane, and I think she'd be good at it (as long as I'm not her instructor, no good could come from that).

I see us flying along and then going over the drill. OK, I'm dead. If she practices how to insert the stick in the hole (you know what I mean), and points for a runway.....Let her get it close and then take over.

It'd be a simple procedure, do it once a year or so.


Steve

steve91t said:

No rear controls, safety issue???... I just wanted to see what some of your thoughts on this are. Steve

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Different aircraft, obviously, but that question was often asked about F-4s. Navy/Marine Corps F-4s didn't have a stick in the back but Air Force F-4s did. Several decades of accident statistics showed no advantage either way. As many accidents were caused by "I thought you had it", and flight control interference as were by "I wish I had it".

A pinch-hitter course...

...still seems like an ideal way to at least get your favorite passenger to have half a chance. Of course we're talking about side-by-sides, not tandems. Get them to the point of making survivable landings anyway.

Best,

something else to consider--

I do fly back seat in a RV4 and a F1 Rocket, and have oftern wondered what would happen if the pilot became incapsitated---there are no pedals or throttle/prop controls in the rear of either plane. Also, the thought has come to mind about the canopy latches----might be difficult to operate, IF you had to get out in a hurry. But actually, I really try NOT to think about it , and enjoy the flight time!!
Tom

Lack of Tandum "controls"...

This same issue was (is) true of all EZ's. I dealt with the issue in my Long-EZ by mounting the mag switches on the pilots head-rest. Not exactly convenient for the pilot, but you get use to it. If the pilot was taken out by health issue, bird strike, etc. the GIB can then fly to a "safe" place, turn the mags off and glide to a survivable landing.

I am fine with anyone who wants to put a full array of controls in the back seat in the "One in a million" chance that you become incapacitated while in flight, with someone in the back who "might" be able to fly, etc. It's your airplane, do what you want.

However, when I considered the likelihood of possible disaster scenarios, I concluded that a well intentioned back seat passenger was more likely to interfere with the flight controls and THAT posed more of a threat than the incapacitation issue. Besides, I subscribe to the KISS principle and since 95% of my flights are without passenger, and my wife does not care to fly, the decision to eliminate the rear controls was a simple one. To each his own.

I still contend that as long as the dead pilot does not slump over on the stick, you have a reasonable chance of getting the airplane on the ground by reaching around. Wouldn't be easy, wouldn't look pretty, but if my life depended on it, I'd figure it out or die trying.

Bob Axsom, I read your post and have no idea what you are saying. Sorry, but I couldn't figure out what your message was. I briefed the kid before the flight, we were at altitude straight and level, etc. he said afterward that he thought it would be like flying his computer sim game. The G-forces surprised him and he freaked. I even warned him about sudden control movements. Sometimes, you can't control human nature.

I agree, and that's why I like the idea of a removable stick.