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A very disturbing discovery in my RV

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Sibirsky

Well Known Member
My RV is sitting at a paint shop waiting its turn to get new colors ,
after months of waiting work finally begun , and all the moving parts were removed , i was called to the shop yesterday , the owner wanted to show me something very disturbing , considering i ferried the bird from Virginia to New york , and did all kinds of maneuvers with a renown RV'er to get familiarized with the airplane , i THANK GOD day and night disaster didn't happen ,
the prebuy was done by someone who weights very heavy in the RV world , i paid over 2K just for the inspection itself , enough said , here are the pictures .

23z63NC

23z67A7

23z66vw

23z685J
 
Yeah , im still scratching my head , the bolt was put backwards , with no jam nut
how did the bolt even stay in , with gravity ?

Actually, I think the photo is upside down so the bolt is correct.

Possibly the only thing that kept it connected.

Correction
I hadn't noticed there was more than one photo so initially I had only looked at the first one.
Now I realize this is probably an RV-9 which has the bellcrank flipped around with the aileron interconnect push/pull rod at the bottom.
First hand example of why specific bolt orientations are specified.
 
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Concerning indeed, especially given that a paid inspection happened.

That said, I'm curious if Scott or anyone else knows what the impact would be if the pushrod became disconnected. Absent it jamming, and acknowledging that you'd effectively lose the up control stop for the opposite (good) aileron, would control authority from the opposite aileron be sufficient to fly?
 
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Trust but verify Sibirsky. Dang I flew the bird and even gave her a good workout. In spite I gave you the recommendation on the inspector I still have the same opinion on all these pricy pre buys. I voiced offline to you and I stick to it.
 
Something similar happened to a -10. Builder removed the nut in the pitch control circuit to ?temporarily? insert a rigging template. He forgot to re-install the nut. Bolt came out on final, nose first landing did in the nose gear, prop. Fortunately no injuries.
 
Concerning indeed, especially given that a paid inspection happened.

That said, I'm curious if Scott or anyone else knows what the impact would be if the pushrod became disconnected. Absent it jamming, and acknowledging that you'd effectively lose the up control stop for the opposite (good) aileron, would control authority from the opposite aileron be sufficient to fly?

My theory is that if this particular bolt came out that the push/pull tube would drop away and the aileron would float in trail at some unknown equalirium point that would probably result in some roll imbalance, but I think you would be able to counter that with the opposite aileron and still have an acceptable amount of roll authority (though that is not based on any first hand experience and I am not raising my hand to volunteer to test my theory).

If the bolt for the lateral push/pull tube fell out? Chances are pretty high it would result in jammed ailerons.
 
Trust but verify Sibirsky. Dang I flew the bird and even gave her a good workout. In spite I gave you the recommendation on the inspector I still have the same opinion on all these pricy pre buys. I voiced offline to you and I stick to it.

Why is there such a color contrast between the pictures?
 
The last two pics in the Flicker link of the RV rudder look like a bullet hole > if that's the case, what is the story behind those pics? Curious minds want to know - might as well get really scared.
 
For the benefit of those newer builders who may not know this key point (never assume, right?): Bolts oriented vertically should be pointed downward, with the nut on the bottom. That way if the nut falls off, at least the bolt has a fighting chance to stay in place thanks to gravity. If the nut's on top and it falls off, the bolt can drop out as well...not good. :eek:

Sib, I am SUPREMELY grateful you made it safely onto the ground and showed us this.

BTW, I too want to more about that hole in the rudder.
 
The last two pics in the Flicker link of the RV rudder look like a bullet hole > if that's the case, what is the story behind those pics? Curious minds want to know - might as well get really scared.

The location leads me to think that it might be a puncture caused by the elevator trim tab tip. This can happen very easily on an -A model without a gust lock.
 
Concerning indeed, especially given that a paid inspection happened.

That said, I'm curious if Scott or anyone else knows what the impact would be if the pushrod became disconnected. Absent it jamming, and acknowledging that you'd effectively lose the up control stop for the opposite (good) aileron, would control authority from the opposite aileron be sufficient to fly?

I?ve flown my 6A to about 50? over the numbers with just rudder, manual elevator trim, and throttle. Hands off the stick. Started about 2500? and set up a descent. Try it, it?s fun and something different to do. I convinced myself I could get it down, but it would probably get bent.
 
Wow! Good catch by the paint shop! Tip 'em an extra $50. :D So glad that the bolt managed to stay in place for your flights.

$2K for an inspection (which sounds way overpriced) and he didn't catch THAT? You can get a good DAR inspection for $500.

I've flown an r/c plane with only one aileron (a ParkZone T-28) and it was surprisingly controllable, with a slower roll rate. I discovered this after a mid-air that took 2/3rds of the left aileron and servo linkage clean off, along with a good chunk of the wing. Needless to say, I was tickled that the aircraft was still flying. But all bets are off if that surface jams.
 
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$2000

I have no issue with someone making money but if you truly paid $2000 for an inspection that dude owes you every penny back. Mistakes happen but there is simply no excuse to not have seen that. If a "friend" did a quick go over that is possible but at $50 or even $100 an hour....you paid for DAYS of very thorough inspection to find things that could wreck your investment....or worse make you dead.

Your money...but you need to have that money refunded and find a quality guy to see what else might have been missed.
 
the prebuy was done by someone who weights very heavy in the RV world

Nobody is perfect, not all the time anyway. Think about all the crazy stuff builders do, multiply by all the usual airworthiness issues, and the answer is about 7 digits.

It's not easy guys. I was on a TC visit this afternoon. Look at this:

jpeag1.jpg


A oval swage sleeve, aka a Nicopress (TM) fitting. Pretty innocuous, yes? Well, this builder was using aluminum swage sleeves, so there are at least 12 of them in the elevator and rudder cables of his Zenith, all totally unairworthy...and all covered with heat shrink tubing. The correct sleeve is copper, plain or zinc plated for galvanized cable, or tin plated for stainless cable.

Pretty good chance someone would have died following a heavy pull on the stick. Any inspection is better than none.
 
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Punctured Rudder

The last two pics in the Flicker link of the RV rudder look like a bullet hole > if that's the case, what is the story behind those pics? Curious minds want to know - might as well get really scared.

The location leads me to think that it might be a puncture caused by the elevator trim tab tip. This can happen very easily on an -A model without a gust lock.

There was a whole thread discussing those last 2 pictures and problem, but I cannot find it now. It discussed setting the proper control travel and ensuring that there is at least 1 inch of clearance between the elevator training edge tip and the rudder at full travel.

i-vXgWXfd.jpg


i-f7hNkgC.jpg
 
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Here is a follow up question after thinking about this for a bit......

I am wondering if it is not possible that the nut was removed from this bolt by someone in the paint shop?

The reason I ask is that anyone familiar with the RV-9 knows that it is a huge pain to disconnect the push/pull rod from the aileron with the aileron mounted to the wing. When I have to remove an RV-9 aileron I disconnect the push/pull rod at the bellcrank and pull the rod out while removing the aileron.

Perhaps someone in the paint shop did the same?
 
There was a whole thread discussing those last 2 pictures and problem, but I cannot find it now. It discussed setting the proper control travel and ensuring that there is at least 1 inch of clearance between the elevator training edge tip and the rudder at full travel.

i-vXgWXfd.jpg


i-f7hNkgC.jpg

While setting the travels and clearances are important, even with them set correctly (which mine are), a stiff gust WILL deflect the rudder far enough to cause damage. Happened to me when my rudder lock failed years ago. Current rudder lock is much more robust because of that event.
 
Well, this builder was using aluminum swage sleeves, so there are at least 12 of them in the elevator and rudder cables of his Zenith, all totally unairworthy...and all covered with heat shrink tubing. The correct sleeve is copper, plain or zinc plated for galvanized cable, or tin plated for stainless cable.

I'm building a Zenith and I'll have to double check but I don't think the ones included with the kit are aluminum. Is the builder you are referring to using the stock parts or aftermarket parts?
 
Here is a follow up question after thinking about this for a bit......

I am wondering if it is not possible that the nut was removed from this bolt by someone in the paint shop?

The reason I ask is that anyone familiar with the RV-9 knows that it is a huge pain to disconnect the push/pull rod from the aileron with the aileron mounted to the wing. When I have to remove an RV-9 aileron I disconnect the push/pull rod at the bellcrank and pull the rod out while removing the aileron.

Perhaps someone in the paint shop did the same?

I was wondering the same thing as Scott. This is one of the areas I always look over very carefully. Seems like the bolt surely would have fallen out if it was like this for any period of time. And most likely would have been spotted during an inspection or pre buy.
This is why I prefer to be alone while inspecting so as not to be distracted. Ie I start looking at an area while being bothered to help someone find a tool or hardware or the phone rings or anything that might take your attention away at a critical time from what you should be focused on.
Ryan
 
I'm building a Zenith and I'll have to double check but I don't think the ones included with the kit are aluminum. Is the builder you are referring to using the stock parts or aftermarket parts?

I hope aluminum swage sleeves are not stock, but I also recognize an EAB kit vendor may supply whatever it sees fit, regardless of accepted practice.
 
Nut

It seems the unknown here is who either missed it or took it off. And if you are unable to verify which I would go over it myself and also have a very qualified person do another inspection before it flies again. Cheep insurance I would say even if it cost half of what you paid for the first one. You only get one go around not second times in life.
 
Evidently it just wasn?t your day. I?ve flown a 30% rc Yak after the right aileron control horn popped off in flight. The controls were mushy but it was still quite responsive. There?s a J-3 cub air show pilot that intentionally jettisons one aileron in flight. You can find him on YouTube.
 
I'm glad this had a good outcome.

My comments:

1: A Pre-buy is not the same thing as a Condition Inspection. A pre-buy is not nearly as extensive and the main goal is to help the owner determine if they are making a good financial decision.

2: A Condition Inspection is to determine if the aircraft is "in a condition for safe flight".

The two overlap in areas but had this been missed during a Condition Inspection, you would have every reason to be pissed.

3: It is good engineering and build practices that prevented this from becoming a fatality. In particular, clearances and proper bolt orientation.

I had a similar thing happen with my RV-3 that had gone through a pre-buy. When we did the first CI it was then discovered that all the cotter pins that hold the aileron pushrods in place were never bent over and secured.
 
More proof that the cure can be worse than the problem.....

I had a similar thing happen with my RV-3 that had gone through a pre-buy. When we did the first CI it was then discovered that all the cotter pins that hold the aileron pushrods in place were never bent over and secured.

All RV models (including the RV-3) don't call for castellated nuts / cotter pins in the control system. If the called for self locking nuts had been used and properly torqued (I'm assuming in this case the castellated nuts were....) then it would have been a non issue.

Point is, someones attempt to make it "safer", had the opposite effect.
 
Can you tell whether or not it's aluminum by looking? If so, how so?

New sleeve in your hand? It's very light compared to the correct copper sleeve.

If crimped on a cable, close examination almost always shows some copper peeking through the zinc or tin plating, where the swage tool jaws contacted the sleeve.

In addition to correct material, it is also necessary to gauge (go, no-go) the crimps, and ensure the correct sleeve size was used. There are huge numbers of sleeves in service, as mechanics have been installing them since just after WWII. No one pays much attention to them, but for a condition inspection, a mechanic should examine and gauge all the swage sleeves the first time an airplane comes under his supervision. No need to gauge on subsequent inspections (the crimps won't change), just look for slippage an/or corrosion.

The gauges are available from National Telephone (Nicopress brand) Loos and Co (Locoloc brand), or GBG/Continental.

For a lot more, download the December 2013 issue of Kitplanes.

We now return you to your regular programming....
 
All RV models (including the RV-3) don't call for castellated nuts / cotter pins in the control system. If the called for self locking nuts had been used and properly torqued (I'm assuming in this case the castellated nuts were....) then it would have been a non issue.

Point is, someones attempt to make it "safer", had the opposite effect.

Are you sure about which you speak? This was one of the very early S/Ns and the build began in 1977. Van himself was the DAR, so I suspect he was happy with the choice of hardware.

The error in question was made when the previous owner removed the wings to C/W the spar reinforcement SB prior to my purchase.
 
Are you sure about which you speak?

Yea, I am pretty sure ;)

For full disclosure, it has been quite a few years since I had a reason to look at the early vintage RV-3 plans but from the RV-4 on, I do know for sure that self locking nuts are spec'ed in the plans for all models.

In conversations I have had with Van he has never mentioned ever being a DAR (and I don't think there was such a thing in 1977)...... regardless, use of castellated nuts and cotter pins would not be a reason someone would not issue an airworthiness certificate. It is acceptable.
My point was that it is not required, and because of the change it introduced an additional instance of a mistake being made.
 
Sibersky, does someone want you dead?

Between suspiciously lost control linkage nuts and bullet holes, I would say that someone is after you. There must be a conspiracy here somewhere. :rolleyes:
Clearly you have not been wearing your aluminum foil hat.
 
Sibersky, does someone want you dead?

Between suspiciously lost control linkage nuts and bullet holes, I would say that someone is after you. There must be a conspiracy here somewhere. :rolleyes:
Clearly you have not been wearing your aluminum foil hat.

Russian Collusion!! Where's Vlad?!?
 
Prebuy details

I thought I would weigh in on this thread to help with some of the speculation. I have already spoken with the OP. Since I am the person who did the prebuy inspection, I thought I would add some clarification.

This particular one was performed over a year ago. Yes, over a year ago. A list of discrepancies was sent to the OP. Whether or not they were corrected was never communicated to me. Those discrepancies included missing jam nuts, loose jam nuts, wrong length bolts on vertical stabilizer, aileron trim working backwards, no drain holes in FAB box, improper phase I sign off, leaking brake pedal, loose elevator push tube (yes, I could spin it with my hand), no safety wire on gascolator screws, amongst other items.

All of these are fixable. But I know for certain that the nut was on that bolt, as I always check the whole control system as well as the aileron bracket attachpoint inside the wing, which requires removing the underwing inspection panel where this bell crank is located. The bell rank is checked for proper installation as well. This is a standard procedure on all prebuys and airworthiness inspections.

As for pricing, which a few of you have taken issue with, this inspection also required airline travel. This was a 20 hour day, which is typical when airline travel is involved.

The bottom line is that I as well as some of the other recognized prebuy specialists on this forum are really conscientious and do a very thorough job. We have the best interests of the buyer and the seller, as it is important that safety-of-flight items do get addressed whether or not the sale goes through. As mentioned in another post, a prebuy is not a Condition Inspection--- no repairs or maintenance such as greasing wheel bearings is performed. But it is inspected to such a detail that when completed we know if we have a SAFE airplane, along with what needs to be corrected if it is not safe.

I have traveled to 3 different prebuys this week alone, and am including some of the findings on an RV-7A, and an RV-8A done this week to help you understand some of the things I find, as well as perhaps to get some of you to take a look at your own airplanes. :)

BTW, on an RV-12 I just completed a prebuy on was very interesting. It was an SLSA, for which SB?s are not optional. That was a long unpleasant discussion with the A&P who wanted to argue the point. The same person left 16 rivets out of the stabilator SB because he thought there were too many, and substituted pop rivets for driven rivets! Not cool at all. Plus, making the entry in the logbook that the SB was complied with borders on a fraudulent entry. Those who buy without detailed prebuys can incorrectly assume the SB was properly executed.

Here are some things discovered this week alone:

-aircraft has covers on top of the wingtip strobes making it not night legal
-the dipstick is installed too tight and has damaged the o-ring at the top
-the spark plugs are very corroded, oil soaked and do not pass a resistance test
-the air filter is quite dirty
-there is RTV sealant around the induction servo, a big no-no
-the exhaust pipes are quite corroded, and the exhaust studs are severely corroded
-intake gaskets are cracked and leaking
-exhaust hangars are not installed properly and are rubbing the engine mount
-oil hoses are stamped as tested to 100 lbs. cold oil can see 115 psi at start up
-the magneto wires are not properly attached. the shielding has not been connected at the magneto or the key switch
-the vacuum pump regulator filter is severely crumbling from age
-the forward baggage compartment is an oily mess
-the fuel tank vents are not flared and screen protected as per the plans
-hoses in engine compartment are original (17 years old)
-very poor riveting on aft wing spar where aileron tube exits. needs to be watched closely for cracking
-rod end bearings on ailerons are severly corroded and frozen in place
-unlabeled switches in cockpit
-wiring under the panel is horrible
-flap motor safety bulletin is not competed correctly
-pitot static routing in fuselage is unacceptable. It runs down from the static port (can collect water) and one side isn't even connected and never was connected. This will give false static readings due to the low pressure of the aft tail cone area
-rear throttle is very stiff and unlabeled (imagine a rider in the back seat thinking it is a vent control and pulling it aft right about the time you rotate on takeoff!)
-the impulse coupling on the mag is not working at all
-there is no proper phase I signoff in the log book
-there is no proper condition inspection signoff for this year
-logbooks are horrible (no entries except for Condition Inspections)
-No SB compliance noted or completed
-wheel pants brackets are loose and the wrong bolt is installed. should be a drilled head bolt and safety wired.
-magneto timing off by 2.5 degrees
-battery tests weak and should be replaced
-rust noted in cylinders from inactivity
 
This is an interesting situation. Vic should by all means be given the benefit of the doubt here. His credentials are quite impressive and He has provided a wealth of valuable information to all of us here on the forum. I find it quite remarkable that He would overlook items as basic as those "discovered" by the paint shop. He did his job and provided the owner, who was not the builder, a list of discrepancies that are the owners responsibility to correct. Since a year lapsed since the pre-buy, did anyone else work on, or fly this airplane? Were the discrepancies ever corrected and signed off? Bottom line is He performed a service that the owner requested and provided a list of discrepancies as he should have. Thats it! The owner/operater becomes the responsible party for the safe operation of the aircraft, PERIOD.
 
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Vic,

Thank you for that detailed reply (and peak into your busy world). 20 hour day (yuck).

Kindest and best,
dr
 
Since the "pre-buy" on this bird was performed over a year ago, seems to me that a Condition inspection was or should have been performed since Vic accomplished the inspection. I think there is more to this story than we are being told.
 
I am with Scott on this one. "It sat in the shop for a month before starting". Someone started to remove the control surfaces and was called away to another job. They pushed the bolts back in to support the aileron till they could get back to it. A month goes by and someone else finds this and tells the boss..............
 
I am with Scott on this one. "It sat in the shop for a month before starting". Someone started to remove the control surfaces and was called away to another job. They pushed the bolts back in to support the aileron till they could get back to it. A month goes by and someone else finds this and tells the boss..............

I think you?re spot on.
 
Vic did my airworthy inspection on my RV 10 in February 2018. His rate for the inspection was in par with what others told me they had paid for a DAR. I did pay extra for his travel time, which you should expect to pay. There are no surprises and you know up front what it?s gonna cost you. I watched him as he did a very detailed inspection. Strictly business and he was very methodical during the inspection. I?m an OCD type individual when it comes to anything that I put my family in and fly. Having Vic do my inspection assured me that it was inspected and approved by one of the best. Can I visualize Vic missing something like that. NOPE, NO WAY! Can I see a repair shop making an error like that, yep.

A shop usually has multiple aircraft in for repair or maintenance and the work is going on simultaneously. If that maintenance shop does not have a check and verify procedure in there shop?s MOU (one mechanic does the work, another looks it over when all work is done and verifies) then there is always the potential of something like this occurring.
 
Time to end speculation .
The shop did not touch anything in respect to that area while removing the ailerons , the only reason they removed those panels was for an anticorrosion treatment , and thats when the discovery was made . No Nut was found inside the wing , they looked and I looked myself .
the only reason why the bolt stayed in there is because of the aileron trim , its spring loaded so there is constant pressure pushing against both ends .
Yes, the prebuy was done a year ago , and I wasn't there to watch the gentleman do his work . basically everything was done sight unseen , based on trust , reviews and recommendations . I didn't mind paying a high price as long as I was getting quality work done .
Vic gave a list of issues he found , 90% of them were fixed , except an oil leak in the engine bay and the brake pedal leak which were later fixed .
Vlad and I ferried the RV to my home airport , the flight was about 2 and a half hours , we did some light to moderate training to get familiarized with the RV9A , about 3 hours , and one flight to Martha's Vineyard , another 3 hours , it flew a total of 10 hours before the flaps failed on Vlad on landing , the airplane was sitting still since , we had another gentleman look at it , and to our surprise , he told us the aircraft is UNAIRWORTHY due to a missing structural piece , which was never mentioned in Vics report , and I stopped flying it all together ( only a month and a half after I bought it )
Vic you mentioned over the phone that the Bolt goes in from the bottom in the RV9 , in this case , other side of the aileron attach is done backwards , because the bolt is put up from the top . I am assuming both bolts should be in in the same orientation , whereas they are not . please correct me if I am wrong .

The hole in the rudder is a common occurrence in some RV's if the rudder isn't properly secured with a gust lock .

At the end of the day , I am happy this did not turn into disaster ,
I agree very much with @rmarshall234 , a prebuy is not the same thing as a condition inspection , I would urge anyone who plans on buying any RV to get a condition inspection right after the prebuy , which I regret not doing .
 
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