Brantel
Well Known Member
Hmmm.... care to elaborate? From this limited vantage point it seems that most if not all 8 owners prefer the wheel landing, I have never heard this blanket statement before. Interested in more about this....
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Question for Scott McDaniels
- Thread starter Brantel
- Start date
Hmmm.... care to elaborate? From this limited vantage point it seems that most if not all 8 owners prefer the wheel landing, I have never heard this blanket statement before. Interested in more about this....
I have quite a bit of RV flight time but only 50 hours or so of that is taildraggers (and the majority of that was in RV-8's). No one ever told me you shouldn't three point an 8, so I for the most point always have. 
So based on that, it was intended to be a bit of sarcasm (you left the off when you quoted me). I guess I didn't do a very good job with that.....
So based on that, it was intended to be a bit of sarcasm (you left the
off when you quoted me). I guess I didn't do a very good job with that.....
SmilingJack
Well Known Member
Ahhh....nothing like a 3-point landing in an -8!
Too bad I only get one once out of a 100 landings
I guess that is why I bail-out and just wheel land most times
My friend does NOTHING but 3-point landings and taught me from the back seat to the front seat to only do 3-point landings.
He is very good at it and probably 2nd to none, but I just am not that consistent with them at this point.
I think it is like golf....the more you think about it the more you suck at it!
Too bad I only get one once out of a 100 landings
I guess that is why I bail-out and just wheel land most times
My friend does NOTHING but 3-point landings and taught me from the back seat to the front seat to only do 3-point landings.
He is very good at it and probably 2nd to none, but I just am not that consistent with them at this point.
I think it is like golf....the more you think about it the more you suck at it!
Brantel
Well Known Member
I have quite a bit of RV flight time but only 50 hours or so of that is taildraggers (and the majority of that was in RV-8's). No one ever told me you shouldn't three point an 8, so I for the most point always have.
So based on that, it was intended to be a bit of sarcasm (you left the
You did fine Scott, I am a little slow today....
David-aviator
Well Known Member
The 3 point vrs wheel landing argument with the RV-8 is stupid.
There is no best way to do it. The important thing is to get the job done and not break anything. We each ultimately figure out how to do that based on what someone teaches us or on our own.
If some guy wants to impress the world by saying his way is best - have at it. The ego is pumped up but in the end it really does not matter to anyone - except that person.
Since June 16 (first flight day) I have landed the beast exactly 100 times. The wheel landing works for me. Every time I try the 3 pointer, it relaunches. Unless it is caught with a little forward stick before the tail drops, AOA increases and flight resumes, otherwise known as a bounce.
OK so the objective is to hold it off 2" above the runway until it gently settles on all three precisely at the same time. Meanwhile back at the ranch runway behind grows and runway in front shrinks and the pilot sits there wondering when the flight will end as the airplane floats and floats in ground effect.
If that's the best way to do it, convinced me. Maybe in a Cub or Luscomb or Citabria or some other ancient drag of an airplane. But it seems the DC-3, the P-51 and the RV-8 land better on 2 wheels than 3. It is more graceful, dignified, safer and necessary (somedays mandatory) in a gusty or cross wind situation. To land on 3 wheels (or one wheel as the RV is not stalled in a 3 point attitude) can be undignified and indicates the pilot is not confident of doing a wheel landing. It is especially so if the RV goes through 2 or 3 pogo dances from tail wheel to mains after landing on the tail wheel fully stalled. That is a most uncomfortable, undignified way to end a flight. It impresses the heck out of passengers and fence watchers.
OK so what do I know.
#1 I love flying the RV-8.
#2 I hate a bounce (relaunch) or pogo dance on landing.
I land so as not to bounce (relaunch) by unloading the wing with a bit of forward stick as it touches.
Beyond that I don't know anything and refuse to debate how to best land the RV-8.
There is no best way to do it. The important thing is to get the job done and not break anything. We each ultimately figure out how to do that based on what someone teaches us or on our own.
If some guy wants to impress the world by saying his way is best - have at it. The ego is pumped up but in the end it really does not matter to anyone - except that person.
Since June 16 (first flight day) I have landed the beast exactly 100 times. The wheel landing works for me. Every time I try the 3 pointer, it relaunches. Unless it is caught with a little forward stick before the tail drops, AOA increases and flight resumes, otherwise known as a bounce.
OK so the objective is to hold it off 2" above the runway until it gently settles on all three precisely at the same time. Meanwhile back at the ranch runway behind grows and runway in front shrinks and the pilot sits there wondering when the flight will end as the airplane floats and floats in ground effect.
If that's the best way to do it, convinced me. Maybe in a Cub or Luscomb or Citabria or some other ancient drag of an airplane. But it seems the DC-3, the P-51 and the RV-8 land better on 2 wheels than 3. It is more graceful, dignified, safer and necessary (somedays mandatory) in a gusty or cross wind situation. To land on 3 wheels (or one wheel as the RV is not stalled in a 3 point attitude) can be undignified and indicates the pilot is not confident of doing a wheel landing. It is especially so if the RV goes through 2 or 3 pogo dances from tail wheel to mains after landing on the tail wheel fully stalled. That is a most uncomfortable, undignified way to end a flight. It impresses the heck out of passengers and fence watchers.
OK so what do I know.
#1 I love flying the RV-8.
#2 I hate a bounce (relaunch) or pogo dance on landing.
I land so as not to bounce (relaunch) by unloading the wing with a bit of forward stick as it touches.
Beyond that I don't know anything and refuse to debate how to best land the RV-8.
and refuse to debate how to best land the RV-8.
Hmmmm, from my vantage point it seems like you just did......
But I agree, it is not a debate I am going to enter either. Mike Seager and I do have some fun conversations at times, regarding all of the debate that does take place though.
I personally like knowing that I can land a taildragger RV (or trikes even for that matter) about as short as it can be landed. If the day comes that I really have to, I want to know I can. The way to do that is to practice it. Regularly.
Guys that always wheel land may think they can land pretty short (and maybe they can), but I guaranty it is still not nearly as short as a well executed three point (notice I'm not referring to it as a full stall landing, because as already pointed out, an RV isn't at a 3 point pitch attitude when at full stall AOA).
It is basic aerodynamics and physics...
If you are flying at a speed that produces level flight just above the surface of the runway (for a wheel landing touchdown), it will always be faster than what is required to fly level just above the runway in a 3 point pitch attitude.
After that, it is simple physics. Since the amount of kinetic energy that has to be dissipated is related to the square of the speed, it doesn't take much higher of a speed value to have a major effect of the stopping distance.
Now some may say "by the time you bleed off speed so that you are at a 3 point angle of attack you will have traveled the same distance anyway".
If you use the wrong technique, that is probably close to correct. But it doesn't have to be done that way. Just takes practice....
brad walton
Well Known Member
My RV8 is not at a stall angle of attack in a 3 point configuration. Thus a 3 pointer in my 8 will still be in a flying attitude and light on the gear. Any bump or unevenness in the grass runway I live on will launch me back into the air. That is why I choose to land tail low and release back presure whe n wheels are on the ground to dump lift and remain planted. I can 3 point it, its just not the way I choose as best for the transition from flight to rolling on ground.
New RV-8
I am getting ready to fly my just-finished-today RV-8 in the morning. I think I will wheel land it.
In all seriousness, I will do whatever feels right for the first landing, but I know I am most comfortable in RV's and Stearmans with wheel landings, so that is most likely what I will set up for. My opinion only, but I feel like there is more control (especially in a crosswind) when doing a wheel landing, and the view is a whole lot better.
Wheel landings vs. 3-point landings rank right up there with the primer wars.
Vic
I am getting ready to fly my just-finished-today RV-8 in the morning. I think I will wheel land it.
In all seriousness, I will do whatever feels right for the first landing, but I know I am most comfortable in RV's and Stearmans with wheel landings, so that is most likely what I will set up for. My opinion only, but I feel like there is more control (especially in a crosswind) when doing a wheel landing, and the view is a whole lot better.
Wheel landings vs. 3-point landings rank right up there with the primer wars.
Vic
You guys are funny
+1 for David.
My RV-8 has been very controllable in a bounce. Easy to keep at the desired pitch attitude during landing.
+1 for Brad: If I drop in a bit, drive it on or the runway is uneven and we get projected back into the air, the correct pitch attitude assures a gentle return to the runway and an uneventful landing. It's not inclined to hobby horse, porpoise or swerve.
Several very famous aircraft skip and dance a bit until they slow more on landing.
I think my -8 lands better than my wife's -4, although a bit faster.
+1 for David.
My RV-8 has been very controllable in a bounce. Easy to keep at the desired pitch attitude during landing.
+1 for Brad: If I drop in a bit, drive it on or the runway is uneven and we get projected back into the air, the correct pitch attitude assures a gentle return to the runway and an uneventful landing. It's not inclined to hobby horse, porpoise or swerve.
Several very famous aircraft skip and dance a bit until they slow more on landing.
I think my -8 lands better than my wife's -4, although a bit faster.
Jerry Cochran
Well Known Member
Prop?
Hey folks,
This has been a fun thread to follow, especially David's comments. I'm wondering if the prop makes a difference ? Other words, does a CS pulled all the way back help to land better at 3 point vs wheel?
Jerry
Hey folks,
This has been a fun thread to follow, especially David's comments. I'm wondering if the prop makes a difference ? Other words, does a CS pulled all the way back help to land better at 3 point vs wheel?
Jerry
Saville
Well Known Member
Since June 16 (first flight day) I have landed the beast exactly 100 times. The wheel landing works for me. Every time I try the 3 pointer, it relaunches. Unless it is caught with a little forward stick before the tail drops, AOA increases and flight resumes, otherwise known as a bounce.
Speaking pedantically, I'm not sure what you mean by "it" when you say "Unless it is caught...". But it seems as if you are saying the 3 pointer needs a relaxation of the back pressure.
My experience is that this is true for the wheelie....not a well executed 3 pointer where all three wheels touch the ground at the same time.
Not at all, tracks very straight. I had an hour of tailwheel time when I first flew it and after 1000+ landings I don't recall any close calls. I also had Van's non full swivilling tailwheel which probably made me look better than I really was.
Bubblehead
Well Known Member
CSP pulled all the way back meaning low rpm? The prop should be in high rpm for a possible go around. Also, I am not sure the prop governor has any effect at low rpm. Below about 11" map throttle controls rpm not the prop control.
Not to rain on our vendors, but the old RV-4 non-swiveling tail wheel has some advantages:
It sets the tail lower allowing slower landings and take offs,
It weighs less.
It might have less drag if you are into speed.
My son Peter has a wheel pant on the old style, his mom has the later full swivel VANs offering on her RV-4. He likes his better.
It's a matter of taste.
It sets the tail lower allowing slower landings and take offs,
It weighs less.
It might have less drag if you are into speed.
My son Peter has a wheel pant on the old style, his mom has the later full swivel VANs offering on her RV-4. He likes his better.
It's a matter of taste.
Saville;
The RV-4 gear leg angles aft from the motor mount. It moves aft when compressed also when the tail is lifted. the RV-8 gear deflects outboard and is straight down when the tail is level with the nose (looking from the side). The RV-4 gear is more limber, it has a softer spring rate, also it is a round rod so it can toe in, toe out or change camber as it deflects or hits a bump etc.
The RV-8 gear is a flat spring that holds the wheel alignment better. It doesn't feel like the aircraft CG moves forward when the gear is compressed.
The RV-8 gear is heavier and it's attached to the fuselage close forward and slightly below the wing leading edge which might not be ideal.
That is my perception of the difference.
I think both ships are fantastic. If I had flown an RV-4 before I built my RV-8, I probably would have gone with the -4.
The RV-4 gear leg angles aft from the motor mount. It moves aft when compressed also when the tail is lifted. the RV-8 gear deflects outboard and is straight down when the tail is level with the nose (looking from the side). The RV-4 gear is more limber, it has a softer spring rate, also it is a round rod so it can toe in, toe out or change camber as it deflects or hits a bump etc.
The RV-8 gear is a flat spring that holds the wheel alignment better. It doesn't feel like the aircraft CG moves forward when the gear is compressed.
The RV-8 gear is heavier and it's attached to the fuselage close forward and slightly below the wing leading edge which might not be ideal.
That is my perception of the difference.
I think both ships are fantastic. If I had flown an RV-4 before I built my RV-8, I probably would have gone with the -4.
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