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  #21  
Old 04-04-2010, 08:23 PM
rvbuilder2002 rvbuilder2002 is offline
 
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Location: Hubbard Oregon
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Another update has been posted to the Teen Flight Blog site. www.teenflight.blogspot.com
Also, Lauren Paine wrote about the program in his monthly column in the latest edition of Sport Aviation (page 120)
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Scott McDaniels
Hubbard, Oregon
RV-6A (aka "Junkyard Special ")
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  #22  
Old 04-05-2010, 05:32 PM
johnslemp johnslemp is offline
 
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Location: Atlanta, Ga.
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Default Silly Question...

Hello There!

Although I understand (and support) the "educational" benefit of the group build approach, I have to wonder about the repairman's certificate, and also about how the FAA will view the concept, insofar as the 51% rule applies.

I'd love to hear your comments... Thanks!

John Slemp
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  #23  
Old 04-05-2010, 06:14 PM
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Mel Mel is offline
 
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John,
These are Experimental Light-Sport aircraft. The 51% rule does not apply.
Also, the repairman certificate is available to the owner after he/she completes an approved training course.
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Mel Asberry..DAR since last century
A&P/EAA Tech Counselor/Flight Advisor
Specializing in Amateur-Built and Light-Sport Aircraft
<n168tx(at)flytx.net>
North Texas (8TA5)
RV-6 Flying since 1993
175hp O-320
3-Blade Catto (since 2003)
FRIEND of the RV-1
Eagle's Nest Mentor
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  #24  
Old 04-05-2010, 10:00 PM
rvbuilder2002 rvbuilder2002 is offline
 
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Location: Hubbard Oregon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnslemp View Post
Hello There!

Although I understand (and support) the "educational" benefit of the group build approach, I have to wonder about the repairman's certificate, and also about how the FAA will view the concept, insofar as the 51% rule applies.

I'd love to hear your comments... Thanks!

John Slemp
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mel View Post
John,
These are Experimental Light-Sport aircraft. The 51% rule does not apply.
Also, the repairman certificate is available to the owner after he/she completes an approved training course.
Like Mel already pointed out, as long as an RV-12 is built meeting the requirements to make it eligible to be certificated as an E-LSA (versus an experimental amateur built) aircraft, the 51% rule does not apply. In fact a person can legally build an E-LSA RV-12 for another person and be paid for his work.

BTW, their is nothing in the rules preventing an experimental amateur built airplane from being built by a group of people just like the teen flight project is. The only requirement is that proof can be provided to show that all party's involved did it for their own education and recreation...that no one was paid for doing any work (at least none beyond what is allowed to meet the work completion requirements as outlined in Form 8000-38).

Eligibility for the repairman's certificate is an entirely different issue. A selected person from the group would have to be able to demonstrate to a DAR's satisfaction that he is familiar with all of the aspects of this particular airplane to the extent that he can properly perform a condition inspection.

For the E-LSA RV-12, a Light Sport Repairman Inspector rating is the required level of certification needed to be allowed to sign off a condition inspection. This can not be obtained just by completing construction of the airplane. It requires taking a 16 hr course. If every member of a builders group wanted to be able to sign off the condition inspection, all they need to do is each take the course.

As far as maintenance and repairs go...anyone can can do that work and sign it off in the log book for the E-AB or the E-LSA airplane. The repairman's certificates mentioned above are for certification to sign off the yearly condition inspection only.
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Scott McDaniels
Hubbard, Oregon
RV-6A (aka "Junkyard Special ")
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  #25  
Old 04-06-2010, 08:02 AM
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Mel Mel is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rvbuilder2002 View Post
This can not be obtained just by completing construction of the airplane. It requires taking a 16 hr course. If every member of a builders group wanted to be able to sign off the condition inspection, all they need to do is each take the course.
Small clarification. To be eligible for the repairman certificate with inspection rating, the applicant must be a registered owner of the aircraft.
__________________
Mel Asberry..DAR since last century
A&P/EAA Tech Counselor/Flight Advisor
Specializing in Amateur-Built and Light-Sport Aircraft
<n168tx(at)flytx.net>
North Texas (8TA5)
RV-6 Flying since 1993
175hp O-320
3-Blade Catto (since 2003)
FRIEND of the RV-1
Eagle's Nest Mentor
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  #26  
Old 04-06-2010, 09:52 AM
rvbuilder2002 rvbuilder2002 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mel View Post
Small clarification. To be eligible for the repairman certificate with inspection rating, the applicant must be a registered owner of the aircraft.
Right Mel...I was assuming the context of all members of a builders group working together constructing an RV-12 that they would all be partner/owners in.
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Scott McDaniels
Hubbard, Oregon
RV-6A (aka "Junkyard Special ")
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  #27  
Old 04-06-2010, 10:03 PM
johnslemp johnslemp is offline
 
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Hello Fellows!

Thanks very much for the clarification...

All Best,

John Slemp
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  #28  
Old 04-27-2010, 12:14 AM
rvbuilder2002 rvbuilder2002 is offline
 
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The Teen Flight blog has been brought up to date.

www.teenflight.blogspot.com
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Hubbard, Oregon
RV-6A (aka "Junkyard Special ")
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  #29  
Old 04-27-2010, 10:35 AM
RGaines RGaines is offline
 
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Location: Novato, CA
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Default Progress

Scott,

What a wonderful program and opportunity for these kids. Are the kids going to be able to learn to fly in it? What is the future plan for the finished -12? You are providing an experience that is going to change the direction of some of these kids lives. Keep it up.

Richard
120002
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  #30  
Old 04-27-2010, 10:23 PM
rvbuilder2002 rvbuilder2002 is offline
 
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Location: Hubbard Oregon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RGaines View Post
Scott,

What a wonderful program and opportunity for these kids. Are the kids going to be able to learn to fly in it? What is the future plan for the finished -12? You are providing an experience that is going to change the direction of some of these kids lives. Keep it up.

Richard
120002
At this point the final outcome is a bit uncertain.

An original program goal was that at the very least each team member get an opportunity to fly in the airplane they helped build, and an extended hope that they might be able to take some primary flight training in it.

The reason for the uncertainty right now is that because of the way the sponsor nonprofit organization, (Airway Science for Kids) is structured, they can own an airplane but it can never fly while it is under their ownership because of the type of insurance they have, etc.
We still hope that another nonprofit can be established with the airplane transferred to it. The problem is that none of the people involved in this program know anything about how to do that. There is also the question of using an E-LSA airplane for flight training in an environment where the students have no ownership in the airplane...would the FAA consider that commercial use even if the use is donated to them. I have made some initial contact with someone in our local FSDO and they said they thought there was a way to structure it to make it possible but it would have to be looked at in more detail.

So to answer your question...we would like to give them an opportunity to take some training in the RV-12 (four of the twelve have already had some basic flight training varying from an intro. lesson to a few hours of dual). I think we can even get some sponsorship money to help with the cost. We just need to find a way to structure it so as to deal with the liability black cloud and satisfy the FAA.

If anyone reading this has any experience with a flying club type of organization geared specifically towards flight training for teens, I would really like to here from you. Particularly if it has operated more as a not for profit business.

Our long term dream for this program is two fold....

1. That we would succeed with the pilot project to demonstrate a way to make the program work, and use that experience to build a program documentation package that could be provided to any other EAA chapter or aviation interest group with an interest in doing something similar in ther area (kind of an outreach to support other groups in spreading the good news of sport/general aviation to young people).

2. Demonstrate the viability of the program to the point that it would enable us to acquire sponsorship for a second RV-12 kit. The construction program could then be repeated with a new group of teens while some of the team members from the first group fill some of the mentor positions in exchange for flight training in the first airplane. At the completion of the second airplane the first could be sold with the proceeds funding a kit to build a third (and probably have enough left over to help cover costs involved with giving the flight training) and then the whole process starts over again....hopefully making a self funding/perpetuating program that could go on as longs as the needed volunteers were available.

Big dreams I know, but I think it could work if it is structured properly.

Thanks for your interest, kind words, and encouragement.

It has been a big commitment of time for the past 7 months but it is very rewarding. These 12 teens have learned a lot in that amount of time, and I think any one of them could fit right in to RV-12 conversations here on VAF.
__________________
Any opinions expressed in this message are my own and not necessarily those of my employer.

Scott McDaniels
Hubbard, Oregon
RV-6A (aka "Junkyard Special ")
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