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Squeezer smilies

GPV

Member
Hi all,

I clearly can't hold a squeezer straight to save myself and get quite lot of these smilies around round head rivets...hope the link works...

B3UXAkwhIHU


I'm not sure whether they are only in the primer or affect the aluminium as well (primer is way too thick so they possibly didn't get all the way through). I can't see any shiny metal at the bottom of any of them but I guess the only way to be sure is to sand it back to see if the aluminium is damaged and go from there. Any thoughts anyone, should I bother?

Thanks,

Greg
 
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I help out at the sheet metal workshop at Airventure, and it is always eye opening to people that have never riveted before that using the gun results in better rivets than the squeezer. Make sure you are only moving one handle on the squeezer. The handle that is in-line with rivet shaft should not move. Don't get your shoulder and upper body involved in the squeeze, which is hard with 1/8" rivets. If possible, put the squeezer yoke in a vice and move the work piece to it.
 
Gorilla tape

Buy a roll of black gorilla tape. Use a small piece to protect the part. 1" section is good for 4 rivets.
 
double squeze

Also, on the -4s I typically double squeeze the rivet. I find it nearly impossible to get a good rivet squeezed if I try and rivet with only one squeeze.
Make sure the rivet set is not moving in the squeezer; have the part in a clamp so it cant move either. You should be able to maintain the squeezer square to the part for the entire pull, otherwise the forces are so great, things will move around, especially if the holes are not perfect to begin with. a buggered hole is why a reworked rivet almost always comes out worse than the original.
 
Depending on upper body/arm strength, you may reach a point in rivet size where a pneumatic squeezer is easier to manage consistently. Borrow a buddy?s and try it, then decide if you need one. You can get most of your investment back by selling it when you are flying. :cool:
 
The quality of my squeezed rivets improved dramatically after I sprung for a Cleveland Tools Main Squeeze. I found I had to apply so much force to a conventional single stage squeezer (for lack of a better term) that I couldn't hold the squeezer lined up well and square to the work piece. The Main Squeeze fixed that ...
 
I found out when I was building the Empennage (first time big shake squeezing with pneumatic tool), that I got better result have the part sticking out of the workbench and let the yoke ‘hang’ on the rivet. Then I could use all my strength and coordination on keeping the squeezer straight.
I did develop a feel for ‘tool straightness’ and was soon able to squeeze consistently at all angles.
 
Is it possible you are using the wrong die?
For example using the squeezer die for a #4 rivet on a #3 rivet would likely do that.
Just a thought.
 
Are you using a pneumatic squeezer here?

If so, two things I found helped. Make sure the yoke is tight in the squeezer with no movement when it squeezes (tighten the nuts). Second, I get my head down and make sure the amount of air gap around the set is equal - then it has to be square on the rivet. Make sure you are not tilting the body of the squeezer when you are pushing the trigger.

+1 for making sure you have the right size. A -4 set on a -3 rivet will make a smiley for sure.
 
Thanks for the tips and responses everyone. I need to go practice.

To answer your questions, yes the die was definitely correct and the squeezer is pneumatic. I was probably just lining it up incorrectly and my holes may be off a bit too. A fair few of my rivets were crooked so it wouldn't surprise me. Gonna have to go practice. Will definitely try some tape to protect things next time too.

Do I need to do anything to repair these things like sand them out?
 
Control the dog.

Thanks for the tips and responses everyone. I need to go practice.

To answer your questions, yes the die was definitely correct and the squeezer is pneumatic. And you don’t need any protective tape. I was probably just lining it up incorrectly and my holes may be off a bit too. A fair few of my rivets were crooked so it wouldn't surprise me. Gonna have to go practice. Will definitely try some tape to protect things next time too.

Do I need to do anything to repair these things like sand them out?

I can tell you without doubt how to do perfect pneumatic squeezed rivets...every time. And you don’t need any protective tape. Firstly you need to understand that a pneumatic squeezer is like an untrained dog....you take it out walking on a lead but it just wants to go where it wants to go. You need to take control. Firstly don’t try to squeeze the rivet in one trigger press....that’s why you have those smilies. Press the trigger in two operations. Firstly press the trigger just enough that the set closes on the rivet but does not squeeze it. Just practice this on a couple of test rivets first (you should never practice ANYTHING on your plane). As you lower the set onto the rivet in this first stage you will hear air escaping from the squeezer. After the set has closed on the rivet you can then make sure that the squeezer is properly square to the surface you are riveting ( ie. the squeezer and rivet are not leaning over). Then, and only then, do you press the trigger the whole way to finally set the rivet.

And finally, and most importantly, keep a firm grip and control of the squeezer when you do the final squeeze. The big mistake builders make with pneumatic squeezers is they just let them go wherever they want to go during the actual squeeze. Take control of the dog. Keep a firm grip on it. Make it go where YOU want it to go..... not where IT wants to go. People think that because it’s a power tool they can just pull the trigger and let it do it’s thing....but that’s exactly how you end up with those smilies.

To summarise. 1. Close the set onto the rivet without squeezing it. 2. Check your alignment (if the rivet is not at 90 degrees to the surface then adjust it at this stage). 3. Grip the body of the squeezer firmly and press the trigger all the way to set the rivet. Don’t let the squeezer and rivet lean over during the actual setting operation. Control the dog.

Have a practice with this method and report back to this thread.
 
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I'm Not a Big Guy: Follow Bob's Advice

Greg,

I had trouble handling the pneumatic squeezer. I go painfully slow, having to concentrate on holding the squeezer tightly in both hands with the part rigidly held in place with clamps.

Things WILL improve. Keep at it!

Best of luck!
Mike
 
Your first sentence is the key, the yoke needs to be square, perpendicular, parallel, etc. to the rivet/surface. Need to get the sight picture down; try moving your head and eyes away from the part to visually check the alignment before pulling the trigger, then once you have it down you can move in closer and bang out rivets faster in the same line. Reset your sight picture in every new scenario. The eye never lyes!

I love banging out rivets with the pneumatic squeezer. Ka tss, Ka tss, Ka tss, ka tss!
 
Thanks for the responses everyone! I'll go hold it tight and use the gorilla tape. I should be strong enough to hold the dog haha.

Does anyone have any thoughts regarding whether or not the smilies need to be removed by sanding, etc?
 
Thanks for the responses everyone! I'll go hold it tight and use the gorilla tape. I should be strong enough to hold the dog haha.

Does anyone have any thoughts regarding whether or not the smilies need to be removed by sanding, etc?

The various riveting specifications are fairly restrictive on damage to surfaces surrounding rivets. For example:

MIL-R-47196A - 4.2.1 Defect standard. Rivet installations showing evidence of the following defects shall be classed defective ... p. Cut or marred skin caused by careless use of a bucking bar or rivet set.

MIL-STD-403C - 5.4 Skin damage. Damage or deformation of the skin from the riveting equipment or flushhead shaver shall not be acceptable.

MIL-STD-40007 - 5.4.5 Marred surfaces. A cut or ring on the preformed head or the surrounding material caused by the riveting equipment shall be cause for rejection.

So, based on the specifications, if it's only the primer you're OK, if it's the metal that's damaged you may have a problem.

In spite of these specifications, Van's tends to be a bit more tolerant, probably because they know what the safety margins are in their designs. When I damaged a spar web adjacent to a rivet head they were happy for me to blend it out, and I know they have given similar advice to other people. Send them the picture and explain exactly where it is, and see if they recommend you to do anything.

Hope this helps
 
The question to ask is what you would do if you sand the paint and find the metal is dented? There are really only 2 answers, do nothing or replace the part.

If you're content to live with it then don't sand the paint, just carry on.

If everything must be perfect then start drilling out rivets.

If there are only a couple of smileys then I would ignore it and continue. You will cause more damage to the structure by drilling out and replacing than by accepting this is a learning process.

Pete
 
Why not sand/buff it out?

There are really only 2 answers, do nothing or replace the part.

Pete, what is wrong with sanding / buffing out the smile? From image, the smiles do not appear significantly deep. Would that not be a 3rd reasonable possibility?

Thanks,
Mike
 
Slow

Another thing that may help... one guy mentioned to control the dog and go slow, closing the squeezer before setting the rivet. I agree with him but wanted to see if your squeezer is allowing this or does it just fire? I had a squeezer that you couldn?t go slow, it was on or off. And that means you need to send it out to be rebuilt. It should be able to move really slow and controlled. Also do NOT oil the squeezer, it?ll wash out the grease internally and ruin the squeezer
 
Update

Hi all,

I sent vans a very lengthy document detailing all my rivets. You can see it here:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1jjEEoH75zUHQw2Mf4xy0s0PQFnGlq5FZ/view?usp=drivesdk

They said the smilies were acceptable and only one very crooked and over driven rivet on my middle rudder hinge needed replacing (I'll do both though I think). Very relieved!

To answer the question above, yes my squeezer lets me grab the rivet gently before setting. I have it all sorted now and my latest rivets are essentially perfect! Thanks for the advice everyone.

Cheers,

Greg
 
Thanks Bob, very happy with it and I agree that no tape is needed when you use both hands and the job can't move. Wish I had learnt it earlier!
 
Thanks Bob, very happy with it and I agree that no tape is needed when you use both hands and the job can't move. Wish I had learnt it earlier!

Greg, I’ll give you another really good tip on this pneumatic squeezer topic. Eventually you will have to drill out some rivets that you are not happy with. That is an area of real danger for most builders because with each replaced rivet the original drilled hole becomes slightly larger. A larger hole means that the replacement rivet can lean over more in the hole.

You will often find posters on VansAirforce telling builders to leave extremely bad rivets in place rather than replace them....that’s because their own experiences with replacing rivets have been disastrous.

However if you follow my process and take extra care to control the squeezer firmly you can always ensure that the new rivet is set orthogonal to the surface (at 90 degrees) despite the enlarged hole, thus ensuring that the new rivet is perfect. The process of gripping the rivet before squeezing it is even more important for replacement rivets.

I’m giving you this advice before you need it ha ha ha. :)
 
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Hmmm, you must be psychic!

Vans suggested I replace one of my really bad rivets. I did and it went perfectly well with both the drill out and rivet replacement (see top rivet in below photo). This improved my confidence so I stupidly decided to replace another one. Unfortunately this one didn't go so well and I ended up contacting the hole wall with the drill and elongating it slightly (see below photo). I spoke to Vans and they said to simply install a replacement, which was a relief as I was sure I'd need to drill the hole bigger and use a larger rivet.

view


So assuming the replacement goes well I will have an oval hole which can't be great for stress distribution. Especially given that this is for the rudder attach hinges! All that careful deburring and scratch removal almost seems laughable now! I definitely know where to focus my efforts from now on.
 
Drill stops

Hmmm, you must be psychic!

Vans suggested I replace one of my really bad rivets. I did and it went perfectly well with both the drill out and rivet replacement (see top rivet in below photo). This improved my confidence so I stupidly decided to replace another one. Unfortunately this one didn't go so well and I ended up contacting the hole wall with the drill and elongating it slightly (see below photo). I spoke to Vans and they said to simply install a replacement, which was a relief as I was sure I'd need to drill the hole bigger and use a larger rivet.

view


So assuming the replacement goes well I will have an oval hole which can't be great for stress distribution. Especially given that this is for the rudder attach hinges! All that careful deburring and scratch removal almost seems laughable now! I definitely know where to focus my efforts from now on.

Buy a set of drill stops. It will prevent drilling deeper than the head. Unless they are set too deep.:eek:

On a side note, please get some gun & bar practice. Get proficient with every gun set including the dreaded double offset. There are numerous places where nothing else will work and proficiently instills confidence. Personally, I grab a gun & bar more often than a squeezer unless it's a whole row of identical rivets.
 
Thanks for the tip and I will be sure to get some gun and bar practice soon! Not sure a stop would have helped thiugh, as I was trying to drill all the way through the rivet as per the instructions for removal in thick material. I should have slowed down and used a smaller diameter drill!
 
Drilling rivets

Thanks for the tip and I will be sure to get some gun and bar practice soon! Not sure a stop would have helped thiugh, as I was trying to drill all the way through the rivet as per the instructions for removal in thick material. I should have slowed down and used a smaller diameter drill!

You are exactly correct. Drill first hole with a bit numerically 10 smaller than the parent hole. If it's thick, you may drill past the head but be careful. The hole relieves the pressure holding the rivet and need not be the same saize as the parent hole.
Make a set of backing bars for driving out the rivet tail.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B7hyZ-sKQmtremd0cEtqaW1NMWc
 
Pete, what is wrong with sanding / buffing out the smile? From image, the smiles do not appear significantly deep. Would that not be a 3rd reasonable possibility?

What would that achieve? The dent is rounded at the bottom and is unlikely to introduce a stress razor. If the rivet is left in almost impossible to dress out, if the rivet is taken out then likely to take out some metal from under rivet head. My view would be if the dent is OK to leave the do nothing and spend the time on something else.

Pete
 
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