What's new
Van's Air Force

Don't miss anything! Register now for full access to the definitive RV support community.

Question about Airspace and ADSB

Pilotjim77

Well Known Member
I've been flying for about 7 or 8 years and recently bought a VFR RV-6. I've done some long cross country trips in other airplanes and still plan to do so in the RV. As I've considered upgrading my panel (and been subject to the associated sticker shock), I'm thinking seriously about just installing a nice portable GPS and leaving it at that.

My question is, do I really need ADSB out? In 8 years, I've never landed Class B, and only once Class C. When I fly Mass to Myrtle Beach, it will take a little doing to avoid the airspace where ADSB is required, but it's not an outrageous detour in my opinion. And I can use North MB or Conway instead of MB. Navigating around the NY, Philly, DC area is the biggest challenge, but not impossible.

One thing that worries me is something I read on another thread which implied that I won't be able to get flight following without ADSB....is that true?
 
There really are low cost ADSB options out there now. Personally I consider ADSB in a huge safety benefit.
 
My question is, do I really need ADSB out? In 8 years, I've never landed Class B, and only once Class C. When I fly Mass to Myrtle Beach, it will take a little doing to avoid the airspace where ADSB is required, but it's not an outrageous detour in my opinion. And I can use North MB or Conway instead of MB. Navigating around the NY, Philly, DC area is the biggest challenge, but not impossible.

One thing that worries me is something I read on another thread which implied that I won't be able to get flight following without ADSB....is that true?

ADSB out is a big safety advantage. Remember the mode C veils are 30nm and you won?t be able to go inside that. Really makes East coast flying much harder without ADSB out.
 
My flying is very much like the OP. I?ve installed ADSB in my -8 project mainly to enable flights above 10,000?. I plan some flights out west and would like to be higher that over the terrain. In the east, I think I can get along without it. Wish the FAA had only required at same altitude that O is then I don?t think I would have needed it and stuck with a xponder.
 
ADS-B

Install an inexpensive ADS-B. I have an Echo UAT under the floorboard with a UAT antenna under the right wing root. Although I'm IFR capable I fly VFR since I found instrument currency too hard to maintain (I'm based at IYK in the middle of nowhere - in the sunshine-prone Mojave Desert).

The greatest advantage of ADS-B is the ability to see other traffic. I am continually amazed at the number of unseen targets that show up within range.
 
I second the safety aspect. When virtually everyone else has ADSB "in", human nature being what it is might make people less attentive looking for aircraft that don't show up on the screen.

Also, the biggest detriment for me would be the inability to fly above 10k. Granted, I do live in the west, but even when I'm over sea level areas I fly all X/C's at 11k-14k.
 
This might be a good option. It provides ADSB in and out and WAAS GPS and Bluetooth to your personal device, phone, iPad, etc.. You can use apps on your personal devices for all sorts of navigation features that will display info from this ADSB/GPS unit. It pretty much replaces the need for a portable aviation gps and you’ll see traffic and weather.

$1500 and it works with mode C transponders. You would need to add the cost of the apps.

I did a quick google search and didn’t see where flight following won’t be offered to non-ADSB aircraft.

http://grtavionics.com/home/ads-b-solutions/uavionix-echouat/
 
My question is, do I really need ADSB out?

Also consider that as people get used to ADSB traffic they will stop looking out the window as much and if you're one of the few that isn't transmitting out and you are in an area with no uplink those folks may not see you. I'd want them to see me.
 
One thing that worries me is something I read on another thread which implied that I won't be able to get flight following without ADSB....is that true?
FWIW: Flight follow has always been, and always will be, available only if the controller's workload permits it. If a controller is busy and you dont have ADSB the odds of being denied Flight follow increases so I personally have it. But it is your decision to equip or not.

:cool:
 
The greatest advantage of ADS-B is the ability to see other traffic. I am continually amazed at the number of unseen targets that show up within range.

Oh yeah. A must-have in the L.A. basin. There's so much traffic down low in some areas that I limit targets to +/- 2000 ft of my altitude to declutter the display (I'm typically 5000'-plus to go over Class C airspace).
 
Since the OP mentioned long x/c flights: get adsb-in (use an iPad if you really want to keep costs down. The close to real time wx radar is great for making strategic (long-range) decisions when the wx is marginal.
 
This might be a good option. It provides ADSB in and out and WAAS GPS and Bluetooth to your personal device, phone, iPad, etc.. You can use apps on your personal devices for all sorts of navigation features that will display info from this ADSB/GPS unit. It pretty much replaces the need for a portable aviation gps and you?ll see traffic and weather.

$1500 and it works with mode C transponders. You would need to add the cost of the apps.

I did a quick google search and didn?t see where flight following won?t be offered to non-ADSB aircraft.

http://grtavionics.com/home/ads-b-solutions/uavionix-echouat/

I do use an iPad mini with a Stratus 2S now, so this looks like a very reasonable option.
 
ADSB Out will be required for all flights above 10,000 msl (a couple AGL exceptions in mountainous terrain), and for C, D and B to include the shelves below C and B I believe. I also think you?ll need ADSB out if you plan on using ATC services...IFR flights and VFR flight following. I don?t have the references for what I?ve said but I?m 95% certain on it. Check out the FAA website and search ADSB airspace to be certain. Definitely your choice on the matter.

I also recommend the Echo. I bought mine from GRT. Super simple install, works with any transponder and gives you ADSB In and Out. You?ll see more traffic and have Weather information. Huge safety factor. Seriously save the $1500 and get it. It will also raise the value of your plane if and when you sell it.
 
I also think you?ll need ADSB out if you plan on using ATC services...
I don't know one way or the other on that question, but I visited the approach facility at AVL not long ago and their screens have a dot to the left of each target if the aircraft is ADS-B equipped. So they know.
 
It would seem to me that if the OP wants to tool around the sky at 200 mph with the rest of us he should step up to the plate and at least comply with the minimum ADS-B out requirements. He can join the club for under $2K. I understand we all have budget constraints, but owning and operating an RV carries with it certain responsibilities.
 
It would seem to me that if the OP wants to tool around the sky at 200 mph with the rest of us he should step up to the plate and at least comply with the minimum ADS-B out requirements. He can join the club for under $2K. I understand we all have budget constraints, but owning and operating an RV carries with it certain responsibilities.

I'm simply looking for input, and I got some good info and suggestions. Thanks for the lecture, dad.
 
Jim, It's not a lecture or even a criticism. What I am trying to explain is that if you can afford to own and properly maintain an RV6, then there are certain standards that should be maintained for your sake, that of your passengers and fellow aviators. If you plan on using your aircraft for X-C flying, and "avoiding" certain airspace, then you limit your options for weather avoidance, traffic information and ATC handling. Do as you wish, and best of luck!
 
ADS-B + Ipad with one of the good apps installed can provide a ton of situational awarness, plus it is a lot cheaper than installing glass in the airplane.

Good luck!
 
You only need ADS-B over 10000' and inside a Mode-C ring and in B and C airspace. If you can live with that, don't install it.

There are a LOT of planes flying without ADS-B or transponders and will continue to do so after 1/1/2020.

My next plane won't have an electrical system, thus no transponder or ADS-B.

I suspect those who insist it is a safety issue, have never flown a Cub, Champ, Tcraft, etc. without even a radio. Keep your eyes outside and you will be fine.

As for the iPad thing, total waste of money. You are better off with a good handheld GPS or a SktView with its free charts than FF with its expensive subscriptions running on an unreliable iPad, than can be left behind accidentally.
 
Last edited:
As for the iPad thing, total waste of money. You are better off with a good handheld GPS or a SktView with its free charts than FF with its expensive subscriptions running on an unreliable iPad, than can be left behind accidentally.

There are versions that do not require a subscription. When you have ADS-B in you have access to so much information, lighting strikes, WX radar, metar/tafs, winds aloft etc... Ipad does not equal foreflight, take a look at the other options.
 
QAYou only need ADS-B over 10000' and inside a Mode-C ring. If you can live with that, don't install it.
.

Pretty sure that Charlie airspace has requirements as well. There is no Mode C ring around the C airspace, though it may be required (I forget).

Larry
 
As for the iPad thing, total waste of money.
NOW you tell me (big grin). I've been flying for over five years with my iPad/Foreflight/Stratus combination, including two trips to the West Coast from NC. The iPad has never once let me down and I feel like the features of Foreflight are well worth the $199 per year. I opted for the Synthetic Vision and it has saved my bacon a couple of times. If you're above the mountains with clouds below, it's comforting to "see" what's down there. If you're having difficulty locating an airport in poor visual conditions, SV will show you where it is. But you're right. For the first time ever, I left my iPad at home last week and the results weren't pretty. I told myself "No problem, I know the way to Spartanburg; All I have to do is follow the Interstate." So after I launched off, ATC vectored me way the (place of eternal punishment) and gone up north for traffic. When he finally released me to "own navigation", I didn't see anything familiar. I had my Sectional chart and a heading, but I was over a rural area with no prominent landmarks. The Interstate was nowhere to be seen. I felt like Amelia Earhart at that point. After about five minutes of floundering around looking for a reference point, I tore up my Man Card and asked Greer Approach for a vector. I was about 45 degrees off course. Sheesh. Obviously, my Pilotage and Ded Reckoning skills have gotten very rusty. With ATC's help, I finally found the airport and went in and made a crappy landing. I guess I was a little flustered by then. The trip back was uneventful because I picked up the Interstate right away and just followed it back to Asheville. I felt naked the entire way without my ADS-B traffic display, not to mention TFRs, NOTAMS, and weather. I freely admit that I've become a child of the Magenta line. :eek:

P.S. I installed a Garmin GDL-82 about a year ago. I'm glad I did. I want to be seen (as well as legal).
 
Last edited:

I've spent several hours reading about ADS-B on the FAA website, the AIM, and other sites, but I'm still somewhat confused. So, my question is this, if I am equipped with only a mode C transponder, who can't see me on their ADS-B In display? Obviously, in the scenario on that video, or at a similar uncontrolled airport, you likely would not be in range of ATC radar. So, if I am understanding correctly, you would not be showing up on anyone's ADS-B in display unless you had ADS-B out. Is that right? And if I in fact AM in range of ATC radar, then do I always show up on ADS-B In displays in other aircraft?
 
So, my question is this, if I am equipped with only a mode C transponder, who can't see me on their ADS-B In display? Obviously, in the scenario on that video, or at a similar uncontrolled airport, you likely would not be in range of ATC radar. So, if I am understanding correctly, you would not be showing up on anyone's ADS-B in display unless you had ADS-B out. Is that right? And if I in fact AM in range of ATC radar, then do I always show up on ADS-B In displays in other aircraft?

You've got it. With Mode-C only, you only show up on ADS-B-in if ATC radar is picking you up to rebroadcast. If you're away from a radar source, nobody will see your location (they may get notified that there's a target out there, but not it's location).

Although thinking about it, if that's true and whenever you're inside Class B or C airspace (where there's radar) then ATC will see you, and their ADS-B out will broadcast you. So what does having ADS-B out really add in that situation? I guess broadcasting a unique code for your aircraft.
 
Last edited:

I've been flying with ADS-B iin and out for over five years. It continues to surprise me how many airplanes don't show up on it, planes I know have transponders and ADS-B out.

My point is, there is no requirement to have it in most of the country and there will always be aircraft without.

You MUST keep your eyes outside the cockpit!

(At Triple Tree this year I watched a plane not fly the arrival procedure and cut off a lot of airplanes. When I spoke to him later, he stated that since no airplanes were showing up on his ADS-B, he assumed there was no one out there and he didn't need to fly the procedure. Nevermind that Cubs and such will never have ADS-B.

Turns out his ADS-B had failed.

There will never be an excuse for not looking out the windscreen in VFR conditions.)
 
So what does having ADS-B out really add in that situation? I guess broadcasting a unique code for your aircraft.

For 1, ADSB position accuracy is much better than Terminal or Center surveillance radar and it is updated more frequently. Important for maneuvering traffic.
The other part is aircraft ID, which unless you have had Mode S all along, they didn?t have. I have ADSB out and rarely get asked for an ident anymore. The traffic is automatically tagged with our info. This is helpful to folks with ADSB In receivers also as you show up with ID and when we hear tower sequencing aircraft we can identify the location of the aircraft they are talking to.

Mode C Altitude is also confirmed agains GPS altitude and if a large disparity exist is flagged.

When below radar coverage, ADSB out can provide aircraft to aircraft traffic coverage if you have ADSB In dual band. For that matter, ADSB In equipped aircraft can see other ADSB out aircraft directly, if the in receiver is dual band. In the vicinity of a local airport, no radar coverage, but ADSB Out and IN equipped aircraft can see each other directly.
 
Pretty sure that Charlie airspace has requirements as well. There is no Mode C ring around the C airspace, though it may be required (I forget).

Larry
If you look at the FAA chart that RV8JD posted (post #23) you will see ADS-B is required inside and above class "C" airspace. It's not required below class "C" airspace but is required everywhere within the mode C veil of class "B" airspace.

:cool:
 
Last edited:
? And if I in fact AM in range of ATC radar, then do I always show up on ADS-B In displays in other aircraft?

No that?s incorrect. You need to be within radar coverage, AND other (adsb-in) aircraft need to be within range of a ground station, for them to see you. Out here in the west there are substantial areas where low altitude aircraft are not within range of a ground station. At LVK I cannot receive any ground stations when I?m very low - and we?re within the sfo mode C veil.
 
I've spent several hours reading about ADS-B on the FAA website, the AIM, and other sites, but I'm still somewhat confused.
You are not alone, my friend. The best situation (as RVDan posted) would be if every aircraft had ADS-B in and out. In that case, each aircraft could see each other directly (aircraft-to-aircraft) with no radar or ground station involvement. Since not everybody is going to equip, the FAA designed a kluge called TIS-B [Traffic Information System - Broadcast]. With that system, the ADS-B ground stations will send you traffic if certain rigorous conditions are met. First of all, both your aircraft and the target aircraft have to be within solid radar coverage. Secondly, your aircraft has to be in contact with at least one ADS-B ground station. Thirdly, you have to be an ADS-B "client". I don't understand all I know about that; There seems to be some kind of time requirement involved, but I don't know what it is. If all the requirements are met and you are a client, the ground station(s) will sent you TIS-B targets for those aircraft which are not ADS-B equipped. In my area, our only ground station is partially blocked by mountains so it's rare that I ever become a client. The only way I know of to find out is after the flight, you can request a PAPR and it will tell you for what percentage of your flight you were a client. For local flights, it's rare to see my client percentage over 20%, which means I'm not going to see non-equipped aircraft on my iPad. Garmin Pilot has a way to tell you in real time if you're a client, but Foreflight doesn't.
 
No that?s incorrect. You need to be within radar coverage, AND other (adsb-in) aircraft need to be within range of a ground station, for them to see you. Out here in the west there are substantial areas where low altitude aircraft are not within range of a ground station. At LVK I cannot receive any ground stations when I?m very low - and we?re within the sfo mode C veil.

You are not alone, my friend. The best situation (as RVDan posted) would be if every aircraft had ADS-B in and out. In that case, each aircraft could see each other directly (aircraft-to-aircraft) with no radar or ground station involvement. Since not everybody is going to equip, the FAA designed a kluge called TIS-B [Traffic Information System - Broadcast]. With that system, the ADS-B ground stations will send you traffic if certain rigorous conditions are met. First of all, both your aircraft and the target aircraft have to be within solid radar coverage. Secondly, your aircraft has to be in contact with at least one ADS-B ground station. Thirdly, you have to be an ADS-B "client". I don't understand all I know about that; There seems to be some kind of time requirement involved, but I don't know what it is. If all the requirements are met and you are a client, the ground station(s) will sent you TIS-B targets for those aircraft which are not ADS-B equipped. In my area, our only ground station is partially blocked by mountains so it's rare that I ever become a client. The only way I know of to find out is after the flight, you can request a PAPR and it will tell you for what percentage of your flight you were a client. For local flights, it's rare to see my client percentage over 20%, which means I'm not going to see non-equipped aircraft on my iPad. Garmin Pilot has a way to tell you in real time if you're a client, but Foreflight doesn't.

Here is a link to a Sporty's ADS-B video. It is a little dated, but nicely explains how ADS-B OUT and IN works. The video really begins at 11:12. The ADS-B IN section that explains who is seen and when is between 20:23 and 25:50.

"Understanding ADS-B: A Pilot's Guide":


Thank you Bob and John. Thanks for the video, Carl....that's exactly the info I was looking for!
 
No that?s incorrect. You need to be within radar coverage, AND other (adsb-in) aircraft need to be within range of a ground station, for them to see you. Out here in the west there are substantial areas where low altitude aircraft are not within range of a ground station. At LVK I cannot receive any ground stations when I?m very low - and we?re within the sfo mode C veil.

Bob, I was out your way about 4 years ago....delivered a light sport Tecnam to a buyer at Frazier Lake Airpark. It was one of my longest and most memorable cross country trips in a small airplane!
 
This might be a good option. It provides ADSB in and out and WAAS GPS and Bluetooth to your personal device, phone, iPad, etc.. You can use apps on your personal devices for all sorts of navigation features that will display info from this ADSB/GPS unit. It pretty much replaces the need for a portable aviation gps and you?ll see traffic and weather.

$1500 and it works with mode C transponders. You would need to add the cost of the apps.

I did a quick google search and didn?t see where flight following won?t be offered to non-ADSB aircraft.

http://grtavionics.com/home/ads-b-solutions/uavionix-echouat/

ADSB Out will be required for all flights above 10,000 msl (a couple AGL exceptions in mountainous terrain), and for C, D and B to include the shelves below C and B I believe. I also think you?ll need ADSB out if you plan on using ATC services...IFR flights and VFR flight following. I don?t have the references for what I?ve said but I?m 95% certain on it. Check out the FAA website and search ADSB airspace to be certain. Definitely your choice on the matter.

I also recommend the Echo. I bought mine from GRT. Super simple install, works with any transponder and gives you ADSB In and Out. You?ll see more traffic and have Weather information. Huge safety factor. Seriously save the $1500 and get it. It will also raise the value of your plane if and when you sell it.

I decided to go with the Echo unit as well. GRT is out of stock on their GPS, so it won't deliver until after the first of the year, but I'm installing several other GRT avionics items (a used dual EFIS and a new EIS system), so the timing shouldn't be too bad.
 
Back
Top