Van's Air Force
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New (03-25-2013) Garmin G3X Products and Prices
- Thread starter g3xpert
- Start date
Sean,
The flight director modes are computed in the display, so their behavior will be the same regardless of which autopilot you have. The VNAV FD mode works the same with the GMC 305 as without.
If you have an IFR GPS you can load a STAR and have the autopilot or flight director follow it laterally; in pitch the pilot is responsible for managing altitude preselect and vertical mode used to get there (pitch-hold, VS, or IAS).
As you said, adding the GMC 305 to your current system will give you IAS mode, standalone flight director functionality, and a LVL button. Not to mention the convenience of having a dedicated AFCS mode control panel similar to your day job...
- Matt
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Brantel
Well Known Member
Can you elaborate on this? Are you having issues with level turns today?
The wires you have should be sufficient for a roll servo, especially if you don't have an electric aileron trim motor in the wing. You'll need wires for power and ground, a twisted (preferably shielded) pair for communication, and a wire for autopilot disconnect. You will obviously need a different connector on the end, but I wouldn't think you'd need to run any additional wires.
The G3X system is fully integrated with the GTX 23 ES remote-mount transponder, which is ADS-B Out compliant when used with an appropriate position source. It can also send comm and nav frequencies to both the SL30/40 radios and the new GTR 2xx radios.
- Matt
rapid_ascent
Well Known Member
Luckily I have spent $1 on any of this stuff yet. Hah Hah to you other guys. I have created my system comparison spreadsheet and now I have a bunch of updates to do, but I like the way this is going.
I am curious about the feature/capabilities differences between the previous autopilot offering and the new release. Can anyone enlighten me?
Thanks
I am curious about the feature/capabilities differences between the previous autopilot offering and the new release. Can anyone enlighten me?
Thanks
SmilingJack
Well Known Member
The Flight Director gives you flight guidence cues on where to fly the airplane to keep it on altitude and course (track).
The old flight directors displayed it in a cross hair type display, the next generation where 2 bars that looked like an upside down V, the new display is HITS - Highway in the Sky.
Look at any of the new EFIS display pictures on the atitude indicator and you will see this magenta display of the flight director.
The old flight directors displayed it in a cross hair type display, the next generation where 2 bars that looked like an upside down V, the new display is HITS - Highway in the Sky.
Look at any of the new EFIS display pictures on the atitude indicator and you will see this magenta display of the flight director.
The flight director not only shows what the autopilot is following but also helps pilots hand fly the course that is programmed in the screens or GPS or whatever. Flight directors can make it easier for a pilot to maintain altitude and heading by simply following the bars. The controller selection will make the flight director bars follow a course or approach or whatever you select even if it does run you into a mountain. If you don't want to follow the bars just turn them off.
Just to elaborate, one of the inverted Vs represents the aircraft's nose and wing's attitude, just like the straight wings and nose "dot" in a conventional AI. The other inverted V ("command bar") is driven by the same software commands that go to the autopilot. It shows where the nose and wings should be, to track a course, follow a glide slope, anticipate a turn, etc. Your job is to act like the autopilot servo, move the controls to nest the two inverted Vs together. As Jack said, AFS and GRT already have this, look at their web pages to see what it looks like.
SmilingJack
Well Known Member
And....because Strasnuts and BobT explained the upside down V better then me....I can now go back to the "Professional & Technical" term used for said upside down V!
Chicken Lips! Follow the Chicken Lips and you will find that destination
Chicken Lips! Follow the Chicken Lips and you will find that destination
Actually, HiTS and Flight Director displays are two different things. The Flight Director (as several have described well) shows you the attitude you need right now to match the guidance. The HITS display (Garmin calls them pathways) show a virtual highway that, in combination with the Flight Path Indicator (or Velocity Vector) shows you where you are going to be and allows you to fly a smooth course to get where you are going. HITS is better for overall situational awareness, but if you follow the Flight Director religiously, it will get you where guidance wants you to go.
Of course, the easiest way to follow the FD exactly is to just let the servos do it - hand flying to an FD just makes you a meat servo....
Brantel
Well Known Member
Not gonna happen...I will however help you make your own....It is not that difficult and I will give you my code to make it run.
And....because Strasnuts and BobT explained the upside down V better then me....I can now go back to the "Professional & Technical" term used for said upside down V!
Chicken Lips! Follow the Chicken Lips and you will find that destination
Ha! That's funny....you big iron drivers will no doubt know the other explanation that unfortunately is somewhat too crude to post on a public forum due to it's "adult content".
In reality there are two basic types of FD's, Single Cue (V-Bar) and Dual Cue (Crosshair). Typically airlines will endeavor to promote a standard across their fleets, and you'll find pilots that love one and hate the other on both sides of the argument. Both serve the same purpose and both are traditionally coupled with autopilot systems (hence Paul's note about well known term...."meat servo"). Some EFISes offer both, some offer one or the other, but if you learn either of them it makes flying the plane really a pretty simple affair! Flight Directors, Velocity Vectors, HITS boxes and all the other goodies make our planes wonderful machines....BUT....accidents can and still do happen with these systems installed; so please don't consider them a panacea to replace well practiced IFR flight currency (or basic skills).
Cheers,
Stein
AirbusPilot
Well Known Member
I am just finishing my panel upgrade with G3X and I want to change everything again
So now this is what I need to add/change to my dream panel:
New GSA 28 Autopilot Servos with Autotrim
New GMC 305 Autopilot Control Panel
New GSU 25 ADAHRS with AOA
New transponder GTX 23 ES
New Nav/Com GNC 255
Should be some kind of rebate for my old unused staff (bought on last December)
Garmin GTX 327
Garmin SL30
Trutrak GX
My wife is going to kill me if I change everything before I even fly with this
So now this is what I need to add/change to my dream panel:
New GSA 28 Autopilot Servos with Autotrim
New GMC 305 Autopilot Control Panel
New GSU 25 ADAHRS with AOA
New transponder GTX 23 ES
New Nav/Com GNC 255
Should be some kind of rebate for my old unused staff (bought on last December)
Garmin GTX 327
Garmin SL30
Trutrak GX
My wife is going to kill me if I change everything before I even fly with this
Toobuilder
Well Known Member
I expect to be in the market for a full boat avionics upgrade within a month or two, so this news is timely. The new pricing brings everything right into line with my initial system of choice ("brand D"). So I'm in the initial stages of the line for line comparison, but one thing sticks out as an apparent glaring shortcoming in the Garmin system - screen real estate. Comparing the dual widescreens from the competition (a 10 and 7 inch), the Garmin seems to be stuck in the past.
With the obvious fixation pilots have on "size"... What is driving the mad rush away from brand D?
Or put another way, can you help out a lazy consumer and tell me what I'm missing?
With the obvious fixation pilots have on "size"... What is driving the mad rush away from brand D?
Or put another way, can you help out a lazy consumer and tell me what I'm missing?
Brantel
Well Known Member
Michael,
Here is a post I made a while back on this subject:
It is the total package that matters to me not just raw screen size.
You can have huge glass but if it is not usable or it gets split up all the time in practical use, then what is the advantage?
A huge factor is Dynon still does not have a complete AP solution....
Another reason people are really embracing Garmin is their knowledge and experience in the field. Nobody else playing in this market can even scratch the surface on what Garmin brings to the table and Garmin is now doing it at an affordable and competitive price.
Remember, Garmin's Team X is made up of Homebuilders. That's a good bonus!
Here is a post I made a while back on this subject:
It is the total package that matters to me not just raw screen size.
You can have huge glass but if it is not usable or it gets split up all the time in practical use, then what is the advantage?
A huge factor is Dynon still does not have a complete AP solution....
Another reason people are really embracing Garmin is their knowledge and experience in the field. Nobody else playing in this market can even scratch the surface on what Garmin brings to the table and Garmin is now doing it at an affordable and competitive price.
Remember, Garmin's Team X is made up of Homebuilders. That's a good bonus!
Toobuilder
Well Known Member
I did read that, but a DUAL (10 AND 7 inch) screen from Brand D gives you a lot more than the dual screen from Garmin, does it not? If we're going to segment a single 10, then your argument makes sense. But people who are going to pop for the dual system have an apparently better option from "D".
The advantages of the Garmin AP are not lost on me, however... That's goodness!
Of course the competition will respond in 6 months with even BETTER stuff...
The advantages of the Garmin AP are not lost on me, however... That's goodness!
Of course the competition will respond in 6 months with even BETTER stuff...
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Brantel
Well Known Member
Yes you are correct, the competition is great for all of us!
The big problem I have in a typical SBS RV is that to make the system usable with 2 large displays, they typically get split by the radio stack and that puts the second display far enough to the co-pilots side that it becomes difficult at best to use it and be effective.
The problem with tandems is can you fit two large displays in the panel with all the other stuff you need/want?
The big problem I have in a typical SBS RV is that to make the system usable with 2 large displays, they typically get split by the radio stack and that puts the second display far enough to the co-pilots side that it becomes difficult at best to use it and be effective.
The problem with tandems is can you fit two large displays in the panel with all the other stuff you need/want?
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airmel
Well Known Member
I like vertical screens -
I personally like the vertical screen format (Garmin). That being said, if you need more screen to look at, put in more screens! Actually, I find the big format screens by the other vendors to be somewhat difficult to place in the panel, and then as has been said before, these big displays are then split to show multiple screens anyway... So with the vertical format, one can put in multiple screens with different views/maps/engine info./etc. and if one fails there are others to take over. Not to mention that if Garmin decides to come out with an upgraded display (like a touchscreen), then they should be easily exchangeable in the panel. Just my opinion.
I personally like the vertical screen format (Garmin). That being said, if you need more screen to look at, put in more screens! Actually, I find the big format screens by the other vendors to be somewhat difficult to place in the panel, and then as has been said before, these big displays are then split to show multiple screens anyway... So with the vertical format, one can put in multiple screens with different views/maps/engine info./etc. and if one fails there are others to take over. Not to mention that if Garmin decides to come out with an upgraded display (like a touchscreen), then they should be easily exchangeable in the panel. Just my opinion.
Danny King
Well Known Member
Toolbuilder,
Garmin is not stuck at all. They are marching forward and will probably smother their competition. Size is not what's important, it's presentation. Flying steam gauges in the Northrop T-38 I learned to appreciate the NASA researched presentation of the classic T with the attitude indicator elevated to make it the center of the pilots scan. Later, I copied that in the Doll's old panel.
When upgrading a couple of years ago, I chose Garmin, even though more costly than Brand D at the time, because of presentation. Heavy metal drivers will feel right at home with Garmin's vertical PFD as that is how most airliner panels are displayed.
The RV-8 panel is the perfect size for a two screen Garmin set up with the center panel elevated to place the attitude indicator as the center of the pilots scan and with the MFD lower on the right balancing the radio stack on the left. This leaves just the right amount of room for the stand-by instruments below the PFD.
This is an early picture made during the upgrade. Note clecos holding the panel in. I think I will replace the AICD AM/FM/CD player with a new GMC 305. The AICD is not needed anymore with the XM music in the MFD.
http://tinypic.com/r/2yk1aoh/6
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N546RV
Well Known Member
This is my concern. Based on the little research I've done, there's definitely no way I'm getting two 10" Dynon screens into an -8 panel. I think I concluded that two 7" displays stacked vertically would fit, but be tight, though I don't really remember. (keep in mind that I was looking at this stuff before I even got the tail kit!)
The 7" Skyview display appears to be basically identical to the G3x display; both are 7" diagonal, both are 800x480. The only difference is orientation...and I think that I can make a much better panel layout with two portrait displays than two landscapes. Hence why I'm pretty stoked about the new G3X stuff. (even though I'm a ways out from panel building)
So it's kind of a personal preference thing for me, in that it comes down to intangible stuff like "looks better" or "better layout."
Garmin Integrated Autopilot Option for G3X
The GSA 28 autopilot servo...
Each servo also provides a built-in interface to drive a customer-supplied trim servo at no additional charge. When the autopilot is off, the servo provides speed scheduling for the manual trim commands. When the autopilot is on, the servo automatically trims the aircraft to constantly keep it in trim.
Will the GSA 28 servos be compatible with the trim features used in the VP-X? My concern is the two units have similar functions, and the trim servo will "auctioneer" signals from both the servos and VP-X. Which device would win?
Thanks
Brantel
Well Known Member
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Looks like the VP-X supports an TruTrack auto-trim function, although it's a slightly different configuration: VP-X contols pitch trim when AP is off, TT auto trim controls pitch trim when AP is ON.
Maybe the solution is a software update to the VP-X, but I'll let the vendors chime in with the official answer... either way I'm definitely looking forward to these new G3X features.
Toobuilder
Well Known Member
So using that logic, the massive G5000 screen is a step backwards? Look, Garmin is a solid supplier, but let's not forget that they are sticking with the 3X screen size because it will fit in a wide range of aircraft (larger customer base), but also because they are heavily leveraging the chassis and other hardware development costs from their portable line. Its one thing to compare the display "quality" (sharpness, brightness, etc), but to say the tall, narrow screen is somehow "better" is stretching it a bit. If it was cheaper for them to build a 15 inch system, they'd have it, and many of you would be falling all over yourselves to get one.
But the bottom line here is that this is a "requirements" decision, not a "brand loyalty" decision. I have done the preliminary layout, and I can get a 10 inch AND a 7 inch SV screen in a Rocket, along with a GTN 650 and the required switches, etc. So any avionics system will have to "buy" its way to my panel based on technical merit. That's all I'm trying to figure out here.
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Eyes side by side
The natural orientation of my eyes, is side by side. I'm used to seeing the horizon as an extended horizontal line.
So although many have trained to use an AH that is only a coupe of inches round, I would lie to see as long a horizon line as possible - which is why I would prefer a landscape screen - as wide as possible.
Perhaps what is needed is a screen twice as wide as a radio stack, & put the radios etc under the screen.
The natural orientation of my eyes, is side by side. I'm used to seeing the horizon as an extended horizontal line.
So although many have trained to use an AH that is only a coupe of inches round, I would lie to see as long a horizon line as possible - which is why I would prefer a landscape screen - as wide as possible.
Perhaps what is needed is a screen twice as wide as a radio stack, & put the radios etc under the screen.
I like seeing a price list like this for a 'typical' installation, keeps it in perspective. What about the [yearly] cost of maps and charts? How much is that?
Brantel
Well Known Member
Thats one of the real issues when one starts to compare a landscape style screen to multiple Portrait style ones.
In real use most people want to have stuff like EMS data, moving maps, approach plates, etc. pulled up on their larger screens at the same time. This effectively reduces that huge PFD display down to much smaller size. In reality not many folks fly around with those huge PFD displays running full screen.
Toobuilder
Well Known Member
Thats an interesting perspective I had not considered. FWIW, on the dual screen GRT I fly now, the upper display PFD is always full screen and the lower display gets toggled to what I want (though it's usually on the EMS)
Brantel
Well Known Member
I did the same almost 100% of the time back when I had my Dynon legacy based panel. With the exception of having the HSI on the right 1/3 of the top screen.
Granted that was before synthetic vision, built in maps and charts, etc. became the norm...
Using GSA 28 with VP-X
Several posts were questioning how a VP-X or other device might work in combination with the speed scheduling and auto-trim functions provided by the Garmin GSA 28 servos.
We understand that you may disable speed scheduling on the VP-X and then the outputs going to the trim motor will just be ground and +12Vdc.
These signals will then work great as manual trim control inputs to the GSA 28.
So, to summarize,
1. Disable speed scheduling (set trim motor %Power to 0 on VP-X)
2. Move trim motor drive wires to servo inputs
3. Connect servo outputs to trim motor
Thanks,
Steve
Several posts were questioning how a VP-X or other device might work in combination with the speed scheduling and auto-trim functions provided by the Garmin GSA 28 servos.
We understand that you may disable speed scheduling on the VP-X and then the outputs going to the trim motor will just be ground and +12Vdc.
These signals will then work great as manual trim control inputs to the GSA 28.
So, to summarize,
1. Disable speed scheduling (set trim motor %Power to 0 on VP-X)
2. Move trim motor drive wires to servo inputs
3. Connect servo outputs to trim motor
Thanks,
Steve
strahler13
Well Known Member
Forgive me if I missed it earlier, but finally (131 posts into the discussion) someone asks the $64,000 question. Waiting the the (normally) quick reply from Garmin...
Everybody is singing the praises of big G, and, no doubt, they make great products, however Dynon will keep my business for now, due to their affordable approach to updates and their ease of use and plainly laid out instruction manuals. Oh yea, and their great products, also.
I like Dynon's style of letting Garmin "have their day" without counter selling by commenting on various posts here. I suspect there are more than a few "not-so independent" opinions due to some here that get deeply discounted equipment.
Either way, competition is good.
Mark
G3X Database Prices
Hello CATPart,
Garmin announced some really great new options and price reductions on database bundles last year.
The U.S. Mini bundle price is only $99 per year for all you can eat of AeroNav navigation data, obstacles, and terrain which is sufficient for most VFR pilots.
The U.S. Lite bundle is $249 per year and adds SafeTaxi (airport diagrams integrated into the moving map), AOPA or AC-U-Kwik Airport Directory, and FliteCharts for all your airport diagrams, IFR approach plates, etc.
G3X customers can also shop a la carte on FlyGarmin.com and purchase single updates for those databases you feel you don't need to update very often.
For example, if you are getting ready for that big cross country trip to Oshkosh and decide you might want an AOPA Airport Directory on top of your $99 annual bundle, $49.95 gets you a complete U.S. update.
Hope this answers your question. There is more detail on FlyGarmin if you need it.
Thanks,
Steve
Hello CATPart,
Garmin announced some really great new options and price reductions on database bundles last year.
The U.S. Mini bundle price is only $99 per year for all you can eat of AeroNav navigation data, obstacles, and terrain which is sufficient for most VFR pilots.
The U.S. Lite bundle is $249 per year and adds SafeTaxi (airport diagrams integrated into the moving map), AOPA or AC-U-Kwik Airport Directory, and FliteCharts for all your airport diagrams, IFR approach plates, etc.
G3X customers can also shop a la carte on FlyGarmin.com and purchase single updates for those databases you feel you don't need to update very often.
For example, if you are getting ready for that big cross country trip to Oshkosh and decide you might want an AOPA Airport Directory on top of your $99 annual bundle, $49.95 gets you a complete U.S. update.
Hope this answers your question. There is more detail on FlyGarmin if you need it.
Thanks,
Steve
Thank you Steve,
Are these prices per display, for example if someone has 3 displays in their aircraft then they need to pay for 3 updates?
Brantel
Well Known Member
Per G3X system....
Electrons
One issue that I haven't seen adressed yet is electical power (although I may have missed it). It is my understanding that the reason a second Skyview is not offered in the RV-12 is that with all the other options installed, there is a shortage of electrical power.
What's the expected power consumption of a G3X system that's comparable to a full RV-12 Skyview system? Would it be possible to switch to a dual-display Garmin system without running short of power?
It might be interesting if this option were explored with Vans as an alternative panel package.
One issue that I haven't seen adressed yet is electical power (although I may have missed it). It is my understanding that the reason a second Skyview is not offered in the RV-12 is that with all the other options installed, there is a shortage of electrical power.
What's the expected power consumption of a G3X system that's comparable to a full RV-12 Skyview system? Would it be possible to switch to a dual-display Garmin system without running short of power?
It might be interesting if this option were explored with Vans as an alternative panel package.
So 3 displays in 1 aircraft would make 1 system? I could buy 1 data update then see the updated charts on all 3 displays?
Brantel
Well Known Member
Yes, that's how it works...I did this just prior to first flight with my new panel.
Based on information from our friends at Garmin, we see no issue with integrating the GSA 28 servos with the VP-X as-is today.
The GSA 28 receives trim motor power inputs (2 wires, GND and +12v) and outputs the same to the trim motor. Electrically, the power coming into the GSA 28 on these wires is identical whether it comes from a switch, relay, or VP-X so nothing special should need to be done other than turning off the speed scheduling on the VP-X.
The GSA 28 receives trim motor power inputs (2 wires, GND and +12v) and outputs the same to the trim motor. Electrically, the power coming into the GSA 28 on these wires is identical whether it comes from a switch, relay, or VP-X so nothing special should need to be done other than turning off the speed scheduling on the VP-X.
One Database Used by All Displays
Hello CATPart,
This question was answered, but it is so important that no one misunderstand this, that we thought we should elaborate a bit.
A G3X system, regardless of how many displays, receives a System ID from the configuration module installed in the backshell of the connector on PFD1.
When you register this system on FlyGarmin.com, you provide this single System ID and all database downloads are usable by every display in this system.
You load every new database into all the displays so that they have equal capability to perform in a reversionary mode, if needed, where they backup the other displays and provide both PFD and MFD functions including flight planning, navigation, moving map, and charts.
Please feel free to contact us directly if you have additional questions.
Thanks,
Steve
Hello CATPart,
This question was answered, but it is so important that no one misunderstand this, that we thought we should elaborate a bit.
A G3X system, regardless of how many displays, receives a System ID from the configuration module installed in the backshell of the connector on PFD1.
When you register this system on FlyGarmin.com, you provide this single System ID and all database downloads are usable by every display in this system.
You load every new database into all the displays so that they have equal capability to perform in a reversionary mode, if needed, where they backup the other displays and provide both PFD and MFD functions including flight planning, navigation, moving map, and charts.
Please feel free to contact us directly if you have additional questions.
Thanks,
Steve
Guten abend,
Although we haven't ruled out implementing a dual-cue flight director option in the future if we get enough requests, for now the G3X flight director is a single-cue implementation only.
You can change the HSI presentation from heading-up to track-up if you like, and you can also change the system-wide north reference between true heading and magnetic.
- Matt
Guten Tag! I may have presented my statement incorrectly as I didn't intend to imply that the G3x has both types of FD's (I don't think it does, but I don't know that for a fact). As far as I know the only EFIS that does both interchangeably in our market was the Cheltons, so I've only seen the single cur on the G3x.
As to the other questions, since I've not flown the new A/P I can't comment on that functionality so I'll leave that for someone more knowledgeable than me!
Cheers,
Stein
hgerhardt
Well Known Member
You Garmin X guys are doing a great job! Including keeping database costs reasonable... now, can you just convince the Certified guys to do the same? For the G3X/ GTN 650 system I just bought and am now installing, the annual cost for the "standard" G3X/GTN package is $862, per the Garmin Aviation Database Price List website.
But, rather than argue about that price, how about some guidance as to what we G3X'ers really need? The "Lite" package is $499/yr, but doesn't include navigation. Well, isn't that the most important part of any update? What am I missing here? Or, what can I do without as far as GTN 650 updates and have instead with the G3X-only updates?
I suppose the main importance is whether or not we're using the 650 for IFR GPS purposes.
Heinrich
Hello John,
Anything is possible and as you know we are dedicated to the experimental aviation market and developing new products and features as fast as we can.
You probably also know that we don't typically pre-announce our intentions to develop new products, so we can't comment on whether or not this is in development.
Like you, we recognize the value of AOA presentations near where the pilot is looking out the window and have made similar comments on here in the past.
Thanks,
Steve
Sun'n Fun
Hi Matt:
Will you be at Sun'n Fun and if not, who will be the go-to person to ask about these products? I need a heated pitot to complete my IFR panel and I also want to talk to somebody about the GDL 39 in my airplane. I'm interested in how to incorporate an AOA indicator into my my 2-screen G3X.
Hi Matt:
Will you be at Sun'n Fun and if not, who will be the go-to person to ask about these products? I need a heated pitot to complete my IFR panel and I also want to talk to somebody about the GDL 39 in my airplane. I'm interested in how to incorporate an AOA indicator into my my 2-screen G3X.
Here are some rough round numbers for current consumption, assuming a 14V electrical system:
GDU 37x displays - about 1 amp each
GEA 24 engine interface unit - half an amp or less
GSU 25 ADAHRS - about a quarter amp, including power supplied to GMU 22/44 magnetometer and GTP 59 OAT probe
GSA 28 autopilot servo - less than half an amp typical, about 1 amp maximum
GDL39R ADS-B receiver - less than half an amp typical
GTX 23ES Mode S remote transponder - less than 2 amps typical, a little over 3 amps maximum at full reply rate
More precise numbers will be in the system installation manual, but for a back of the envelope power budget this should be close enough to get you in the ballpark.
- Matt
