Taboo discussion needed to revitalize GA, build community

I've been off the forum for a while, but this is a question that keeps coming up in circles and I couldn't think of a more diverse group to get an answer from. It's been bugging me for a long time, because I come across so many people that would love to join the club but think they're not able to.

Now I realize some feel it's taboo to talk about money, but the reality is that money and perceived cost is what is prohibiting many would be pilots and builders from pursing aviation. If you're not comfortable with this, I invite you to stop reading right now.


There are a million magazine and AOPA articles to discuss methods of defraying cost. To a newbie, it's all just noise. Most goes over their heads or is too intimidating to wrap their minds around. If there's a more economically/educationally/life experienced diverse group to ask, I don't know where to find it. I talk with friends and fly with folks from all kinds of different economic situations/education levels/etc. Many have toyed with the idea of building an airplane or buying but have written it off almost instantly because of the preconceived notion it's something for another economic class they'll never belong too. Blue collar salt of the earth folks who think building a 10 for family adventurers isn't possible for them, to airline captains that think building an 8 is something beyond their reach. Perspective right? I know there are builders/owners here from all walks of life and I'm curious, for those willing, if you'd share how you attained your ultimate dream? Real world people experience to prove it's not something limited to the 1%. Maybe motivation for the lurkers/dreamers here to stop and say "hey that guys just like me. Maybe I can do this!" I'm sure everyone here has had that conversation, and the raised eyebrows, when people look at you and say "wait, you own an airplane?!" Then you stumble for words to explain we're no different. Mortgages, kids, car payments, it is possible.

This is not meant to be a discussion of the pros and cons of everyone's methodology. If you took a 401k loan to buy your engine, if you mortgaged your house to pay for your panel, if you sold a kidney to get your QB kit.... everyone has a different situation, and what works for one may work for another, judgement/advice free zone. Maybe you drove that 1988 Toyota another few years, passed up a vacation to buy a finish kit. No one is wrong or right. It's purely an opportunity for folks to share their story and motivate others, to realize it can be done. If you'd so be willing to share, as much or little as you like, how'd you do it? I've seen newly wed couples here in their 20's to retired public servants, all get there. There are a million ways to do it, and part of revitalizing general aviation is convincing would be pilots/builders that it really isn't unattainable. My hope is to be able to point out to friends and colleagues, that it isn't that cosmic, and it really is within your means.

Help get some dreamers off the fence and over the hump. Fortitudo in numeris.

With the wife and I both working and kids married we're probably a little above average income. But definitely not wealthy! We both love to fly and want to enjoy the time in the middle of life so we gear our life towards flying yet try to save as much as possible and still be safe. We think of the plane as money in the bank. It has probably out performed an IRA at times but not always I am one that believes it just might be better to have something in my hands than numbers in a bank anyway.
What really helps with expense is being able to work on almost all parts. Internal engine, mags, whatever. The beauty of home builts! And if it's not your thing, there's probably someone around that can help with the more complicated gear head stuff.
We bought an already built RV6 while building a M14P powered Moose which is also considered part of our retirement still under construction. Should be worth a fair amount more than we have into it. As my brothers Harmon Rocket is also... And as long as it doesn't get wrecked?? RV's insured so we're OK there.
We only live once. Might as well have some fun. And its not like throwing money down a rat hole. Do a nice job and it'll be worth a good percentage of what you have into it or more. I know people that almost drink my gas budget and blow money on new cars and trucks. If one can't afford to do both, before buying that new car, take a ride in an RV. Or even a 172. We've enjoyed a 172 for 20 years. Fairly cheap to run, still have it, money in the bank. Hoping values will pick up again now that the US isn't surely doomed as it was... I'll sell the 172 then. Maybe come out a little ahead.
So there is one screwed up way of justifying this sickness:=))

I'm only 24, I'm fully aware that I'm one of the younger persons on this forum and I'm almost always one of the youngest people at any sort of pilot meeting/convention.

I'm also a CFII and I basically instruct two groups.

Group 1 is teenagers who's parents sponsor them to get their license.

Group 2 is people who are 30+ years old, have a good job and have settle down in life. I get very few people my age because money is a real thing and most people in their early to mid 20's don't have any.

When I get students that are clearly motivated, and also obviously trying to save money, I tell them every trick I know. Study the the maneuvers/topics before the flight, know all your checklists, get atis during preflight before engine start etc...

I really feel like its my job to keep people interested in GA, so I frequently charge little to nothing for ground instruction. I'll also do things well outside the scope of the ACS. I frequently will show private pilot students commercial maneuvers (once they are competent/capable). I'm not training you to take a check ride, I'm training you to fly an airplane. People appreciate it and it makes them want to keep flying.


For those of you who are wealthy and also passionate for GA, maybe consider starting a scholarship with a local high school and sponsor a teenager to get their license. You wouldn't get anything out of the deal other than a thank you letter, but you would positively impact their life forever. It's something I plan to do when I have a little more income.

Designed and wrote an app for Palm Pilots (remember those?) back in 2000. "Airport Insight" was the first AF/D for Palm Pilots, and I sold enough of it to pay for my RV-6A project up through paint and phase one.

I took out a loan (First Priority) to pay for my project because:
A. I can responsibly manage debt,
B. My opportunity cost is zero (realistic self-appraisal that I'm a lazy bast*rd and so's my money), and
C. I didn't want to be like my parents and be too old to enjoy toys by the time they could afford them with cash. Life is too short.

This approach is not one size fits all but works for me and allows me to have my cake and eat it too. YMMV....

I'll chime in and put my check in the box next to poor blue collar worker that barley got the thing finished. Took 7 years and lots of sacrifices to include the wife unit to go along with and support my crazy idea of building a plane, drive a 16 yo truck, sold the hotrod for the avionics and 401k loan for the engine-prop, but hey, in two more years it will all be paid for. But I will add, that in the beginning I thought I could do it for a lot less......What, only 2K for the tail kit? I can do this.......Cha Ching.....Ca CHING!

I'm 29 years old married a few years ago, just started a new career as a high school math teacher, my wife owns a nail salon, and I am still dealing with student loans from my engineering degree.

Aviation has been my passion for as long as I can remember. I got my license in high school and wanted to fly for a living but medical issues (that had been fixed) got in the way. When POB2 came out I made the decision to build a 7A instead of the 12.

I do however have a wife that is ok with setting aside a rather large portion of our check every month to make this happen in 3 years or less. We live in a remote part of Wyoming and have family and friends in Denver so the 2 hour flight down there is a lot more appetizing to her than the 8 hour drive!

It sounds I am also like many that will pay for the airframe and finance engine/avionics. To me I will just treat it like a car/truck payment which almost everyone in the country already has. (at the cost of not getting a new car for awhile)

Plain and simple, almost anyone can afford one these birds; sacrifice will have to made for most but it is doable. Life is too short to do nothing but save every penny for retirement and not enjoy the ride along the way.

I have paid as I go for the kits up through the fuselage. I'm fortunate to have a few high limit credit cards with zero interest on them thanks to military benefits. So I used those, got points and cash back then set up a strict payment plan to get them paid off quickly. For the engine, avionics, and finishing items (bulk of project) I'm doing a loan through First Priority as well.

I figure the money I'll save working on it over the years plus not paying for rental airplanes will more than make up for any heartache of a loan payment!

Timing worked for me. My first 25 years of adulthood were spent Married, trying to build a life, raising kids etc, so an airplane wasn't in the cards. Then there were a few years where my earnings were pretty good and the wife decided she wanted out, so I found myself the sole decision maker of where my time and money went (well most of it anyway) so I seized the moment! Got 'er built and flying right up to paint! But now I'm married again so........

Slow and steady.... Started (took over) my project when I was early 20's and earing 20k a year if I was lucky. I knew it would be a long road but I really enjoy the building aspect, so Im not in a rush. Just picked away at the costs here and there, saved money when I could, and now I'm almost done. At the same time Ive saved up enough money for a down payment on a house and a new truck. Tight budgets are possible for sure but dont be in a rush.

I saved for two years for my private certificate, began to run out of money toward the end and had to sell my vintage motorcycles to finish, that sucked but it was worth it. Now I am building a 7 living like a cave man to do it, no cable, internet, and old truck with no payments, don't forget the clothes line. Everyone spends there money on what is important to them but I do have to say that I have done a lot of things that I thought were expensive but now I see that they were nothing compared to aviation.

Started way back when with $5000 in cash and a $17K bank loan. Treated it like a hobby business; fly cheap stuff, and build up an aviation fund by building, buying, restoring, and selling. It was fun.

Then one day out of the clear blue I got a call; I had won the 2006 EAA Sweepstakes. Sold the prize (a certified airplane) without moving it from the EAA hangar, paid the taxes, and called Vans; a past project had been a friend's 8A my wife liked. As it related to the RV, it was a $50K head start.

Paid cash for the rest, as we went. The 2008 recession was a hiccup, for sure (I'm self employed), but I sold another project and an M14 radial, Patti raided the grocery fund, and the RV-8 flew in late 2010.

It terms of operating expense, I can honestly say the RV-8 has been a valuable business tool, as I attend truck auctions and visit customers around the Southeast. At six years in, I don't know what I'd do without it.

Interesting stories, one and all.

I had been away from general aviation for 15 years, but had been very active in the aerospace industry. Always on the road, travelling from one airport to another, with a young family at home. Short story is that I loved my job, but loved my family more, so switched career paths to telecoms. The job is boring. I missed aviation, and particularly, aviation people. That's when I was talked into buying an old homebuilt - a Davis DA2A. I had been saving for a replacement vehicle, but bought the airplane instead - it was quite inexpensive - in the air for under $10K. We still have that airplane as it's what allows me to keep my pilot skills sharp while building.

The first airplane is not big or fast enough for my wife and I to really travel, so we started to look at the next generation. We wanted a travelling machine. I started to look at GlaStars as they were about as much airplane as I could afford and still get the ability to adapt to different missions. A neighbor told me he was building a Sportsman 2+2 - when I researched it I realized it was exactly the right airplane for our mission, but there was no way I could afford one. Not even close.

A few years passed and a partially-completed Sportsman kit came on the market at a price significantly below new price. We thought about it and realized we could still fly the Davis while working on the Sportsman, as long as we were happy with the Sportsman project taking a few years to finish. We have done it completely on a cash basis. Our youngest vehicle is 10 years old. We have no mortgage because we scrimped and saved hard to pay it off. We're not rich, but we also don't spend money if we don't have to. No cable or satellite TV etc. We just don't live high on the hog. This keeps enough cash free for us to have the Sportsman nearly completed, in its own hangar, and sufficient cash in the bank to pay for the first year of insurance and gas.

Our way isn't the right way for everybody, but it suits us well. We're really looking forward to being able to travel in this airplane, especially to see distant family members. While the Sportsman was originally far out of our reach, a bit of good luck on finding a kit at the right price, and a lot of hard saving has brought our goal within reach.

Really nothing new here, money has always been an issue with aviation.

Its probably tougher today to follow the dream of it. After WWII there was the GI Bill, it was easy to use that benefit to take lessons and get started. Also possible in those days to work at an airport for lessons. Same after VN service.

My story is simple, I was born to fly and have been able to do it. Not the best pilot for sure but do manage to survive doing what I love. Got very lucky with military flight training with HS education, but I pursued it relentlessly, would not give up. Gave up 10 years of normal life being in military paying back to government for the benefit of the training and experience.

Still at it today at age 78 and going broke doing it. Don't really care about money just so I can fly.

May spend my last dollar on a Hartzell composit CS prop for the 8. As near as I can tell, it weighs just 28 pounds more than Catto.

Take off rpm is 2180 now, 2700 would be like an after burner.

Man, that would make this thing smoke on take off.

Cannot help but add my .02.

I am a civil servant working stiff. Whenever there is a new employee introduced to me at work, whoever is bringing them around usually interjects a comment about the fact that I am a pilot and own my own plane (I have a picture of the plane on my desk). Without exception, every single person who is told this is in total disbelief. Then when I tell them I built it myself they are beside themselves. There are gasps of "REALLY!" and all sorts of questions of how I was able to do that. Most people are locked into perceptions that truly limit their own imaginations of what they believe they can achieve. Getting a person to realize for themselves that they can actually do something they never thought possible is a true trick that if we could accomplish would unlock so much potential.

Here is the way I did it. I payed cash for every component of the build. I made sure I had the money to cover any item before I bought it. Of course I fully realize that this is not a normal situation for the vast majority of people. At first blush giving advice to pay up front in cash for everything does not seem to help with the notion of understanding how to get more people involved in aviation. However, I think it truly goes to the heart of WHY there are so many disillusioned people who do not believe they have the capability to get involved in aviation in any form because it is too expensive. Or for that matter, any endeavor that at first sight seems to take all the economic resources available to achieve.

This is the one thing I tell everyone, no matter what their life situation may be:
Get out of debt! Once out of debt, stay out of debt!

I truly believe the detriments to going into debt far out way the benefits of acquiring debt. If it were not for this idea of staying out of debt there is no way I would be able to afford to own an airplane.

Ok, so the response usually is: "Sure, that's easy for you to say!" Well, no, really it isn't easy to say and I fully understand from first hand experience that it is not easy to do, initially, either. It does take a great deal of dedication, discipline, determination, devotion. Ok enough of the "D" words. No question that it takes a different mind set to go about becoming debt free and then staying debt free. I have all kinds of little tidbits of advice on HOW to do this and would be more than happy to share with anyone. PM me if you want details otherwise this is already too lengthy a post.

I believe I could write a book on this debt thing but the truth is we already have Dave Ramsey and his followers out there successfully sending out the message. All I can say is what he is talking about is real. It is a life changing concept that more people should embrace.

I am here to tell you once you achieve the debt free lifestyle you will find yourself FREE! Every aspect of your life changes and what I really mean is your attitude about things changes. You no longer are tied to worry, concern, fear. The emotional aspects of needing to figure out how to pay for something goes away. There is a great deal of baggage associated with all of those feelings that goes away when you are not worried about finances.

Then concerns about how you are going to do something like - build an airplane changes. You begin to think - "Hey, I think I can do this!" before you know it you really are doing it! Then one day, there it is! Completed, signed off, and a real airplane that you built, you own, something that you yourself accomplished that opens doors to new friends, new experiences, new exposures to life you never imagined before.

I truly believe that if I could do it, anyone can!

I leave you with my favorite Vulcan phrase:
LIVE LONG AND PROSPER!

RVbySDI said:

Most people are locked into perceptions that truly limit their own imaginations of what they believe they can achieve. Getting a person to realize for themselves that they can actually do something they never thought possible is a true trick that if we could accomplish would unlock so much potential.

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Very good points. Thanks for your wisdom! I whole heartedly agree with the above statement. As soon as somebody says they "can't" then they never will. We have a saying around my house that "can't" is a dirty word.

-Started before kids or marriage. Could never have done this with young kids.
-I'm a firefighter so money is okay, not great. Picked up a second job as a flight medic and used that to fund as much of build as possible in addition to working overtime
-Simple build, some used avionics, basic interior
-Used, mid time engine
-Not yet painted
-Drove an old car into the ground
-Sold the boat
-Own a modest home
-No credit card debt. Used it during the build for large purchases (and got miles), but always paid back within 1-2 months.

I have friends who drive cars worth more than my plane. But I put 100 hours on it last year, flew almost every week, and have already been all over the southeast. Worth every penny and day spent building.

Chris

Like most of the others, I am strictly middle class, in terms of income.

When I got out of college in the mid-80's I started my flying lessons by not buying any new clothes or going to the bars with my friends, drove a 10 year-old car with over 100K miles on it. (That was a miracle for a mid-70's car!)

It took me a year and a half and 64 hours to get my PPL, paying as I could afford the lessons, dealing with bad weather, etc.

When I decided to start on an RV, I saved up and bought a -6 tail kit and started on it. Then I started looking at the price of engines and set the kit aside and got into car racing. (Boy, that sucked up some $$$!)

When Van's came out the RV-9A I promised myself that if they came out with a taildragger version, I would build it. My reasoning was that even with a cheap O-235, it would be much faster than a 172!

I saved up enough for the empennage and started on that, eventually selling the -6 tail kit.

The wing kit came and went, as did the other kits. All the time saving for the next kit and not spending money on much else. The fuselage kit was ordered the week before I got married. So, my new wife knew what she was getting into.

The first engine (O-290D2, 135 hp) was found on Barnstormers for $3,500 and worked well, right up until a prop strike destroyed the engine and the insurance company bought me a new O-360 kit engine and they paid me to install it. The money I made on my "labor" paid for the paint job.

As a friend of mine said, while I was building, "If you think building is expensive, wait until you are flying!" Those words are so true!

I paid cash for each part as I went, if I couldn't afford the next part on cash then it had to wait. I refused to borrow money for something that was essentially a "toy". I had a 5-year plan for paying it out and building it, and was pretty much on schedule until right at the point where I was finishing up the wings when my wife decided she wanted out. The divorce cost me well north of $35k and put a 2-year hickey on my build plans, but in the end it was a good thing, and that made me REAL glad I didn't have any loans on the project at the time. With just me in control of the finances I was able to cut deep and pull it back together.

My advise would be like the others. Using a credit card correctly is like trying to pick up a turd from the clean end, it just don't work, don't do it. Buy used cars (I traded my last pickup with 296,000 miles). Buy used equipment and tools when able. Build in your garage as long as possible. If you have the fire in the belly for aviation, you'll find a way - if you don't then you won't.

My story is similar to the folks that have already posted. I started out a few years ago, in a different job, that paid much less. I was making around 45k a year, but my wife was also working, and paying off student loans so we didn't have a lot of extra cash.

My first purchase was an Isham Tool kit that was being sold here on the forums, which I picked up using some tax return money I had squirreled away one year. I saved a good bit on the tools by buying used.

Then, a few years later in 2015 I found a RV-7 tail kit that was also being sold here on the forums. It was an un-started kit, and was in pristine condition and was exactly what I was looking for, even though I was not fully ready to buy it yet. We settled on a price that was significantly cheaper than buying the kit from Van's and I used some money I had been saving to pay for the kit.

Between the time I bought the tail kit and now, I landed a better paying job at my dream company....a job that paid bonuses for the first time in my life. My wife and I agreed that since we had been living comfortably on my old jobs salary, we'd just keep to that lifestyle and just stash the bonuses away every quarter to pay for the RV-7. Since I had already bought a tail kit, I would be saving up for the wings as I built the tail. Then, after buying the wings, I'd save up for the fuse while I built the wings, etc...

That's what we did. I started my tail kit in October of 2016 (over a year since I had bought it) but all the while I was saving all my bonuses in a separate account to pay for the wings. I finished my tail kit around the end of March, and placed an order for my slow build wings shortly after. Wings are scheduled to be crated on 5-29-17!!

I had saved about 95% of the cost of my wings using the bonus-stashing method. I paid the other 5% using a credit card that I plan on paying off in a month or two. Once I have that lat 5% paid off, I plan on keeping on with the bonus-stashing method to pay for the fuselage, and then repeat the process for the finishing kit.

About 6 months ago, my company began offering an employee stock purchasing program, where we are guaranteed a 15% discount on the stock price when its purchased. I took advantage of this, and put a few % of my salary into this program (where else can you get a promised 15% return on any investment???) and all these proceeds will begin going towards the airplane savings account.

At some point, my fuselage will be completed and all the kits will be done and the plane will be ready for its engine, avionics and paint. Because these are really big purchases, I am planning on getting a conventional aircraft loan to fund this and purchase them all at once. If all things go as planned, I will have enough money in the airplane savings account from my "bonus-stashing" method to pay a decent down payment on that loan. Likewise, I am planning on continuing to use my bonus payments to pay down the principle of the aircraft loan as well.

As far as lifestyle, my wife and I welcomed our first daughter in this world 11 months ago! We are only planning on having one kid since we struggled to have the first one (don't get me wrong, I enjoyed the "attempts" but facing possible infertility is stressful for a couple). We are not "rich", but we are frugal. She has a newer car that we bought when she was pregnant (it was a pre-owned 2015 model) because we wanted something safe for the baby. But, I drive an old beater: 1992 Acura Integra thats got around 355k miles on it and leaks oil from *somewhere* I have yet to find. hah. The beater does all I need it to do, and I actually like driving it because that thing is solely living on spite at this point. It is almost like driving one of those "rat rods" because its so ugly!

We are fortunate that when we vacation, we use points that I earn from all my business travels, and we usually only do a vacation every other year or so. With the new baby, we decided to forgo vacations for a while until the baby is more "travelable", opting for a little long weekend getaway and stay-cations at home.

Aviation is just silly expensive and it sucks. Its one thing I absolutely love, but hate it for all the silly expenses that comes along. That's one reason I am doing experimental....its a great way to save money and be more active in aviation. I consider myself pretty handy and decently capable, so why would I need to pay gobs of money to an A&P to do something like upgrading avionics, or an oil change?

Times have changed.
My wife gave me ground school for Xmas. I managed to save enough money and find the time to complete flight training. It was a huge challenge while raising two kids but I had a good job. It was still tough.
A neighbor followed the same path.
Back then, you could find a flying airplane for $10k. Not much of a machine, but they where out there. We ended up going in partnership on a '42 Aeronca L3 we found for $7500. It flew and another $1500 got her cleaned up a bit. It was all the cash either of us could muster. A shared hangar for $50 a month, 4 gallon fuel burn, we could manage this. I bought him out a few years later.
After ten years of ownership and 600 flight hours I sold that airplane for $15k, virtually the same airplane bought for $7500 ten years earlier.
The days of finding a flying $10k certified airplane are gone. $50 hangar space?. gone. Appreciation of an airplane? Certainly not RV's, and probably not any make. If you don't have expendable income, our "hobby" may be out of reach.

I would like to hear from our European friends. They have had a culture of Flight Clubs since WWII. Country Clubs of the sky if you like. Two of my Fiat projects served time in flight clubs. The way I understand it, the "club" owns a small fleet. You join for a fee, "rent" time, and pay a monthly maintenance fee. I have an old newsletter form one of the clubs. Really well done in full color, kind of a marketing piece I think but I can't read Italian. I believe such clubs might exist here in the States but if they do, I don't hear about them. Could this be part of the answer? People could join for a reasonable fee, have access to various machines for a reasonable rental fee, and a place to commiserate with like minded and varied membership. Young people could be sponsored, mentored, and perhaps find a way into aviation. Again, perhaps our European readers can comment.

To add one more thing, here is an example of one man's vision to give back to aviation and promote youth programs. It has been very successful.http://ptaeromuseum.com

airguy said:

Using a credit card correctly is like trying to pick up a turd from the clean end, it just don't work, don't do it.

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That's the only thing I disagree with. I have a couple of cards I use for everything I possibly can. Savings accounts pay diddly, but using a credit card that gives you CASH back, or something you actually need, is like an instant 1-3% discount. Of course the trick is... NEVER, ever, carry a balance from one month to the next. You absolutely must pay off every card, in full, every month, without exception.

The only card I use that doesn't pay cash back (and that's cash, on the statement or in a check, no silly gift card stuff) gets me hotel points that my wife and I use. We travel and stay in hotels a couple times a year, and very rarely have to pay for a night.

If you don't have the discipline (and the cash) to pay off every cent before the due date and avoid finance charges, then you're right -- don't use the cards. Ever. For anything. Last year I miscalculated and left a $0.50 balance on the Discover card. That cost me $15 in interest charges, which ticked me off to no end. It was the only credit card interest I've paid in two or three years at least. On the flip side, last December I applied about $800 in cash back to my card balances - and I'll beat that this year.

Paying for learning to fly? I have no answers to that. I will say, don't do it over a long time, as you will definitely pay more. But paying for the build has been pretty easy.

A lot of people have some disposable income. It just depends on what you choose to spend that on. In my case, I decided to stop spending almost all money on transient things like eating out (either lunch or dinner), or things that after they were over, you had nothing to show for it. So instead of spending money having fun for a weekend, driving around, going to events, etc. I just changed that into having fun by building. If you spend $100 on a restaurant, what do you have a week later? Nothing. When I spend $100 on building, I still have a thing worth $100.

I also simply looked around at money that didn't need to be spent, and at opportunities to make money. One thing that really helped, is that my passion for airplanes kind of killed my passion for cars. So I am happy in my used 150k mile Acura, and will be for years to come.

The trick is to change your priorities first, and the rest follows.

Gash said:

As soon as somebody says they "can't" then they never will. We have a saying around my house that "can't" is a dirty word.

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If you think you can, or think you can't, you're right.

Somebody oughta look at the deal Jesse just posted on a near-finished RV-6A and engine combo. http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=148516

$35k and you are almost ready to fly.

Chris

JonJay said:

Times have changed.


I would like to hear from our European friends. They have had a culture of Flight Clubs since WWII. Country Clubs of the sky if you like. Two of my Fiat projects served time in flight clubs. The way I understand it, the "club" owns a small fleet. You join for a fee, "rent" time, and pay a monthly maintenance fee. I have an old newsletter form one of the clubs. Really well done in full color, kind of a marketing piece I think but I can't read Italian. I believe such clubs might exist here in the States but if they do, I don't hear about them. Could this be part of the answer? People could join for a reasonable fee, have access to various machines for a reasonable rental fee, and a place to commiserate with like minded and varied membership. Young people could be sponsored, mentored, and perhaps find a way into aviation. http://ptaeromuseum.com

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I can assure you that Flying Clubs are alive and well. The Flying Particles (this club was founded by some physicists from Lawrence Livermore National Lab) has been in existence since the 1950's at LVK. Current membership is around 120 active pilots. It's probably the least expensive route to flying. But it's not dirt cheap, more like middle class income is needed. And it's not for everyone. You usually need to schedule in advance, deal with the occasional problem of the plane you reserved being stuck somewhere else by bad weather, etc. It takes a certain personality type. But if it fits you, it is the low cost way to go.

An earlier post talked about not seeing many 20 or 30 somethings as student pilots. In my case that was true, I was totally focused on family and kids until they were out of high school. In retrospect, maybe I could have flown earlier but we (the whole family) would have traded other memorable experiences for it.

This was after growing up in an aviation environment with my dad and his best friend who shared a Mooney including a trip to OSH in '71. That trip decided the matter of whether I would build sometime in my life. It also had an influence on my choice of engineering education. Today I can see that long distance goal setting has been the best attribute I learned (from whatever sources). Choosing a goal and aiming to get to it. This does not mean blinders on everything else (kids, family), for me it was making the optional choices to tend towards the long term goal.

So, I was hooked. Took most of my lessons before leaving for college. Raised family with mate that knew I was hooked on aviation, had a short lived stint in the aviation industry and had images of the Q200 lying around in the 80's. Never let my SA subscription expire (EAA 98396). It was a mental lifeline. Most of the homes I owned or rented had "the building space" but that was easy to justify because of the esoteric motorcycle habit and other DIY stuff. That space ALWAYS had an airplane in mind.

As has been said, building is frequently a team effort. My flying career restarted when we were in a traffic jam from **ll just south of DC. My mate said "You need to finish your license".

That was the commitment I needed so that I knew she was on board with the resources going in that direction. Got the PPL after a short refresher and started renting (which is STILL cheaper, folks ). Diane loved the utility of flying but of course after a couple of years she got tired of riding in antiquated and tired junky craft and asked "How can we own our own plane?"

By this time in our careers, we were in a position to pay as we went with the choice to not go bleeding edge on the avionics. She said "You WILL buy a new engine". Um....OK Dear Started building not long afterwards. The only sucking sound was buying that engine but we absorbed it OK.

The choice of a Vans was a practical matter. We lived in the snow belt at that time (2005). I wanted to build a glass bird but the epoxy fumes and dust in the house during the winter were not acceptable. Aluminum it would be.

So, I mentioned OSH '71. As an 11 year old kid, I was looking at a mass of geezers with hand built planes. Now I ARE one.

Its interesting to read this stories, and mine is really no different.

I see a theme though.

Airplanes are a priority for everyone.
No one has said they just fell into money or made millions.
I would say we are all just common people with the same goal and dream, nothing extreme anybody else can't achieve.

Heck, we're already committed.

Need to be asking the folks currently outside the circle.

I think for many or likely most of us, the answer to the question, "How do you pay for a plane and flying?" is the same as the other one we all faced -- "How do you ever finish a project as big as building an airplane?" It's the old elephant question. One bite at a time. Not many of use can just whip out the pen and write a check for $70-100K, or much more. You pay as you go, either saving up and paying cash or figuring out what makes sense and will work in your personal financial situation. What worked for me might not work for the next guy. Heck, some of it wouldn't work for me again due to a vastly different economy that we saw in, say, 2011 or 2012.

We worked our way from living paycheck to paycheck, deep in debt, zero savings, zero retirement money to a pretty sound financial state the same way. We're not quite among the idle rich, but I'm no longer worried about next month's bills or our retirement. One step at a time, break the big job into as many little ones as it takes, keep focused on the long term goal, and be ready to take advantage of opportunities and conditions as they change.

One bite at a time..

..has worked for me so far too. Although I'm not happy with how long it's taking, I keep reminding myself to stop looking at the whole elephant! Financially speaking, my wife and I set forth a budget and savings plan for our RV-10 build, complete with a schedule of milestone expenses so we could be sure we'd hit the milestones with our savings plan. It was all neat and tidy until we had our first child, then a second. Not only did expenses rise, but the priority level of the build dropped, dramatically; especially in my wife's mind (she is not a pilot). Schedule went out the window and it's been hard to prioritize money away from "family/nesting expenses."

But.... you keep plugging away at it. Embrace the time-savers and give up on the time-wasters. If money gets tight, you find ways to either cut expenses or raise extra income. Little by little, you'll see a pile of metal start to resemble a well-built, capable aircraft. For me, along the way, I've also seen two tiny, wrinkly, uncoordinated bundles of flesh start to resemble well-adjusted children, a busted-up shell of a house start to resemble a home, and an emotionally induced romance start to resemble a seasoned marriage.

All meaningful things in life take time and effort to achieve.

ppilotmike said:

..has worked for me so far too. Although I'm not happy with how long it's taking, I keep reminding myself to stop looking at the whole elephant! Financially speaking, my wife and I set forth a budget and savings plan for our RV-10 build, complete with a schedule of milestone expenses so we could be sure we'd hit the milestones with our savings plan. It was all neat and tidy until we had our first child, then a second. Not only did expenses rise, but the priority level of the build dropped, dramatically; especially in my wife's mind (she is not a pilot). Schedule went out the window and it's been hard to prioritize money away from "family/nesting expenses."

But.... you keep plugging away at it. Embrace the time-savers and give up on the time-wasters. If money gets tight, you find ways to either cut expenses or raise extra income. Little by little, you'll see a pile of metal start to resemble a well-built, capable aircraft. For me, along the way, I've also seen two tiny, wrinkly, uncoordinated bundles of flesh start to resemble well-adjusted children, a busted-up shell of a house start to resemble a home, and an emotionally induced romance start to resemble a seasoned marriage.

All meaningful things in life take time and effort to achieve.

Click to expand...

There is a lot of life truths right here folks. Very well said Mike!

sticker shock

To be sure, money is the biggest deterrent to people learning to fly. Call up a typical FBO and ask how much it typically costs to get a SEL PPL. Pay attention to how many zeros at the end of their quote.

I tell anyone that cares to listen that the lowest cost entry into flying is gliders.
And, I think it makes you a better stick too. (Why that is so is the subject of a different discussion)

I flew all kinds of things with friends when I was a teenager, from SEL to gliders to balloons. I knew I was going to learn to fly. So this reinforces the common thread among all the posters here that we were committed and gave up other things to make it happen. I drove old beater cars (Volvos) and didn't spend much on social life.

When I finished college and started working, I now had the vital combination of time and money. I solo'ed less than two months after I started (9 flights!) and had my PPL within 6 months. Total cost to solo was $800. Sure it cost more by the time I finished my PPL, but in gliders, a solo'ed student enjoys most all the recreational value of a license. Just can't take friends. But I had a lot of soaring time, flown cross country a few times and flew in a one-day fun contest.

Sure nowadays, even a glider license is a big chunk of money. But far fewer hours, and if you stay at it without lapses, it doesn't take many flights. So it is a small fraction of the cost of an SEL license. After about 4 years of glider flying, a local club made transition training affordable. Solo'ed a C-152 after 3 dual flights. Not because I'm some kind of savant, but because all the accumulated flying experience in gliders transferred over directly. Hardest for me was learning how to work with ATC.

As for homebuilding, I was able to partition enough of our family income to pay as I went. Not needing to save for kid's college fund helped. I used a small home-equity line of credit to buy the engine and prop - that was easy before the recession.

airguy said:

My advise would be like the others. Using a credit card correctly is like trying to pick up a turd from the clean end, it just don't work, don't do it.

Click to expand...

Greg, that is the best line I have heard in a long time! Im still cracking up.

It does take self control to use credit cards to your advantage. I have a cabelas card I put business expenses on and it gives me enough credit to get 2-3 nice guns per year at no cost. My AE card gets me Hawaii every year for free too. The trick is I have to pay those off each month to keep my accounting straight.

My build has been a combo of watching for deals and having all our kids being successful! I have dreamed of building for about 20 years before I was financially in a place I could without having to worry about being able to get the next parts.

One thought is it takes so much of a persons time, they don't have time to do many of the other costly activities like golf, tennis, yard work, ATV's, skiing, or a sports car!

Indeed how do we encourage young aviators......

get them to win the lottery... Face it folks flying is for the rich. The rest of us suffer, scrimp, forgo other things just so we can have that 1 point something hours in our logbooks.

But it challenges us, makes us work towards a goal and is FUN!!

My build is an RV 7
loved the idea of a taildragger the challenge and the feel appealed to me.
purchased all kits on credit card and payed it off first before going to next kit(recoverd travel points for vacations)
bought used engine and had it "reviewed" by AME
purchased tools from ebay, as well as some 1500 dollars worth new as well.
Lucked out and found some great deals on the Dynon Skyview Classics stuff
Transponder bought used
Spent way too long which requires diligence and patience almost 8 years so far
Well over 55K Cdn so far and another 15K to complete to VFR day / night mission.
Too expensive for entry level, the answer to getting people in the air is something around 35 K to 45K and buildable in 2 to 3 years..

Lets face it, the threads above say it all. You have to love aviation and love the challenge with passion to accept the costs to life and finance that flying and building an airplane demand. I cant wait for first flight.

The next generations, however, do not seem to embrace these things as ours did so i see GA disappearing over time. Still I cant wait to fly mine!

162,313 Private pilots as of Dec 31 2016. looks like we are losing 6-8 thousand per year.......

Only for the rich? I disagree!

dave4754 said:

get them to win the lottery... Face it folks flying is for the rich. The rest of us suffer, scrimp, forgo other things just so we can have that 1 point something hours in our logbooks.

But it challenges us, makes us work towards a goal and is FUN!!

My build is an RV 7
loved the idea of a taildragger the challenge and the feel appealed to me.
purchased all kits on credit card and payed it off first before going to next kit(recoverd travel points for vacations)
bought used engine and had it "reviewed" by AME
purchased tools from ebay, as well as some 1500 dollars worth new as well.
Lucked out and found some great deals on the Dynon Skyview Classics stuff
Transponder bought used
Spent way too long which requires diligence and patience almost 8 years so far
Well over 55K Cdn so far and another 15K to complete to VFR day / night mission.
Too expensive for entry level, the answer to getting people in the air is something around 35 K to 45K and buildable in 2 to 3 years..

Lets face it, the threads above say it all. You have to love aviation and love the challenge with passion to accept the costs to life and finance that flying and building an airplane demand. I cant wait for first flight.

The next generations, however, do not seem to embrace these things as ours did so i see GA disappearing over time. Still I cant wait to fly mine!

Click to expand...

Did anyone else talk to the 15 year old entrepreneur at SNF? She has been making jewelry since she was 8, is building her own airplane and hopes to solo a like model on her sixteenth birthday. She is financing all of this with her jewelry sales. Remarkable young lady. Clearly she has supportive parents (they were both there), but she has a goal and is using her talent and drive to make it happen.

If a 15 year old can do it, most of us have no excuse.

http://www.rachelsjewelrymachias.com/

It is a bit different if you outside of the US. As fortune would have it I managed to buy most of my kit when the US$ was equal to AU$ 1.07. Later while the exchange rate was similar I did fwf, prop and engine I think US$ was at parity or lower. Anyway I retired and used part of super. I've found one of the hidden costs, postage, including freight of kits and components to be very expensive to Australia. We also pay a Goods and Services tax on anything over AU$ 1000.00. BTW I bought avionics when the AU$ was 0.70 US. I ended up buying these in Australia as after factoring in GST, Customs clearance, freight and the exchange rate it was cheaper to buy Dynon etc cheaper here.

I wasn't sure what to think of the first post on this thread but after reading through every single post I feel but one thing. Inspired. And thankful for who we are all. I will be the first one to admit to thinking I was an average Joe trying to play in a big dog' s world. But this thread is simply an amazing testament to the reality that if somebody truly wants to build and fly thier own airplane as a means to an end it is still possible. And perhaps we are all more similar to each other than different. Seriously. I couldn't stop reading. I have the depest respect for the human spirit to take humble means and make a dream come through. You are my people.

Kimdest Regards,

Jim

I didn't even consider flying or airplanes because they were for "rich" people. When I started re-evaluating my purpose in college I decided to give flying 1 semester, I justified the cost because it was for "higher" education. I was quickly hooked and came to realize that most pilot/aircraft owners were normal people with different priorities.
Another buddy with similar priorities had access to a Davis DA-2A we could fly if we moved the RV3 out of the way, my intro into Experimentals. After watching my buddy's dad fly circles around us in the RV3 I knew I wanted one.

After college I tried to minimize spending and prioritized the airplane account. Like DR's article on how to afford an RV I brought and still bring my lunch to work, no cable and am still driving our 2005 Carolla that's hitting 300K. I paid for the majority of my RV on $400/month on a cash basis. At the same time I used the Dave Ramsey "snowball" method to pay off both vehicles, school loans and pay my house loan down. Paying cash turned my 5 year build into a 9 year build, I looked at doing a loan but having a finished airplane with no $$ for gas/insurance/hangar etc didn't solve any problems as all my airplane money would be paying off a loan.

Aviation is expensive, but it is money well spent. I pity all of the new fancy diesel trucks and nice cars I pass, I figure my Carolla has been making me $$ for the past 8 years since I paid it off. What will those $70,000 trucks and cars be worth in 10 years, what about 20 years? I don't see my RV as my retirement account, but it's defenitely worth more in dollars and mental sense than cable and Golf.

Functioning on a retired income, my RV life has caused me to pinch some. But it is my passion and I've forgone many other things I enjoy. My advice is; if there is a will, there is a way, and patience is required.

You need the passion

Put me in the pessimist camp. I'm not sure the millienials see the same thing us boomers did. The only way for us to fly was to actually do it. Now VR gives them a shortcut on the couch.

I think money is secondary to passion and drive. P&D will generate $$.

Choices .... ??

Nobody said it but there are $40,000 flying RVs out there and $140,000 RVs not yet built and some 10s that will hit $200,000 plus. Decide if you want to build and fly, or fly and build, or just fly an RV. It really does make a difference.

If you're intent is to build a fully loaded electric panel CS RV8 to fly, then finding $100+ is probably going to be a lot harder than finding a flying RV4 for less than $50,000 and flying the daylights out of it.

Finding the 2,000+ hours required to build your first RV might be a lot harder than working an extra job and buying a flying airplane. Do you have 2,000+ hours to take off from your family?

Just saying that basic choices make a lot of difference in what you can effectively do or not do! My personal option was a home equity loan set up on 10 years which was almost like free money. I built the first one in 2,500 hours, the second I could do in 1,200 easy but I don't want to spend another 1,200 hours building when I could be flying.

If I knew now what I didn't know then.... I probably would have financed a flying plane and been flying 7 years earlier but I really enjoyed the building and have no regrets on that. I learned sooooo much !

It's important to be realistic about your expectations and financial capabilities so that you can really enjoy the full build, buy, and/or fly experience. Whatever you do, the RV group is awesome and supportive. It's all good up on the RV Mountain

Wow. 3000 views and 4+ pages of responses in 24 hours. Keep them coming, there is clearly interest in this subject. Thank you to those who have been willing to share.

jliltd said:

I wasn't sure what to think of the first post on this thread but after reading through every single post I feel but one thing. Inspired. And thankful for who we are all. I will be the first one to admit to thinking I was an average Joe trying to play in a big dog' s world. But this thread is simply an amazing testament to the reality that if somebody truly wants to build and fly thier own airplane as a means to an end it is still possible. And perhaps we are all more similar to each other than different. Seriously. I couldn't stop reading. I have the depest respect for the human spirit to take humble means and make a dream come through. You are my people.

Kimdest Regards,

Jim

Click to expand...

Exactly why I started this thread, and what I was looking for. Clearly there is a hunger out there for motivation and inspiration.

This is just great!

I know most of the posters have actually finished a build, so their input is far more valuable. I am also in my 20s and had been dreaming about my own airplane for years. But I have dealt with European regulation and what mechanics of certified A/P will do to you here. 10-12k for an annual isn't unusual. I have been very lucky to make these experience on someone else s dime so to speak. So I was looking for a way to do my own maintenance and ended up with the crazy idea to build my own plane.

While I am still in college I went into this fully aware that I wont be able to afford the wing kit. I just wanted to see if I can do this and for now I am building wall furniture. I call it an investment into my education. I have learned a lot. Had to blow all of my savings and make some cuts for tools and things. Worked out so far. I love building so I will just have to be patienct. I take my sweet time because I actually enjoy it and will soon run out of things to do.

I still have this plan that it may be possible to build a -7 with used engine and very basic panel for under 60k. I have been told I am crazy but that's nothing new just my 0,02 cents

Great thread - -.

I saw a picture of a homebuilt aluminum low wing on the front page of a Popular Mechanics mag in 1968. I wanted to build one ever since. I have done every job in the book, flunked out of college 3 times, got my act together. Repaired cars freelance, bought a few, and centered on engine rebuilds. Worked 24/7 for two years and saved money, finished engineering with MSME, married. I am cheap. I loved cars, but finally arrived at the conclusion they are the worst investment of peoples lives. Have driven many a car to 150k miles, self maintained and sold for a pittance. Seldom buy a new car depreciation is horrible. Worked, saved like a maniac, focused on home, financial security& family. Worked hard at career advancement. Built a house, did all electrical and painting. Put two children through college, they funded their graduate phase. Retired with a modestly lucky nest egg (I am still cheap). Studied airplanes and costs and building times. Settled on the RV7. Rationalized this way: With self maintenance, and a thrifty fuel burn, the fuel cost per trip is actually less than a car. The cost is a capital investment, not the best, but not bad. A modest bump over cost when flying, then some yearly depreciation, if any. The opportunity cost is lost, but with interest these days, not that much. So, most of the investment can be recovered. Cost per mile (with overhaul) is still less than most cars. A lot less if it is traded in warranty, only to get another bad investment.

Some "friends" say what a costly hobby. Really? How about the depreciation on that corvette (that you don't drive)? How much is the track fee for that hobby car to actually drive it at speed? Your other cars? How much is that investment account returning after broker fees? No, give me the RV.

The Dave Ramsey approach is right on, I did it but never heard of Ramsey. Live modestly, save and be careful of the lifetime cost of everything. In that context, balance the costs against other life priorities and proceed carefully. There are ways to reduce the costs, an RV6 for sale here today. Modest investment, modest engine, modest panel, and one has a plane that flies just as fast as a much more costly one.

Regardless of income, do the math, consider priorities. Each person is different, no judgement involved, just make the choice with some contingencies. Look for opportunities, in job, career, extra money, savings. Opportunities are everywhere even under the worst personal circumstances.

Just my story and opinion. FWIW.

Blain said:

Put me in the pessimist camp. I'm not sure the millienials see the same thing us boomers did. The only way for us to fly was to actually do it. Now VR gives them a shortcut on the couch.

Click to expand...

^^This. Revitalizing GA and building the RV community are two separate things. The thread will help motivate folks who are on the fence to jump in. It's a narrow market of folks who want to fly, and even narrower for folks who want to build. But for those so inclined, they'll find a way. I built my first EAB in a 2 bedroom townhouse in college, and paid for it by cutting grass and flipping burgers.

As far as revitalizing GA, it ain't happening. GA was the apex expression of freedom for a number of generations who had imaginations powered by transportation (and chemical propulsion). The newer generations are inspired by electrons and technology, and transportation is becoming merely a means to a destination, rather than celebrating the act of movement in and of itself.

Newer cars are becoming appliances (self driving will only accelerate this), Uber etc. are nurturing the idea that owning a vehicle is obsolete. Mfg's are challenging basic principles of "ownership" and right to repair that we took for granted only a few years ago (e.g. tractor DRM [Deere], toner cartridges [Lexmark]). None of that hits GA directly, but it all contributes to a cultural shift where we increasingly depend upon others for our transportation, entertainment and other basic needs. In that transformation, there isn't a lot of interest in personal ownership of lots of things, the least of which is aircraft. So IMHO it ain't going away, but the glory days are well behind us.

I fly because it is a hobby where I am 100% responsible for an entertaining and safe outcome. It is up to my two hands and my head to get us home. I build out of pride and confidence in being pilot, mechanic, and technician for a very challenging machine operating in an unforgiving envelope.

There's never enough money, but for folks who want the adventure they'll find the resources, and we need a strong community to bring them along. Good thread-

cczarnik said:

Newer cars are becoming appliances (self driving will only accelerate this), Uber etc. are nurturing the idea that owning a vehicle is obsolete. Mfg's are challenging basic principles of "ownership" and right to repair that we took for granted only a few years ago (e.g. tractor DRM [Deere], toner cartridges [Lexmark]). None of that hits GA directly, but it all contributes to a cultural shift where we increasingly depend upon others for our transportation, entertainment and other basic needs.

Click to expand...

Sad, but probably true. I worry this cultural shift from desiring responsibility and independence to desiring irresponsibility and dependence, will bring about generations who will suffer under the harsh rule of the few. On the bright side, perhaps the cycle will then start over...

KatanaPilot said:

Did anyone else talk to the 15 year old entrepreneur at SNF? She has been making jewelry since she was 8, is building her own airplane and hopes to solo a like model on her sixteenth birthday. She is financing all of this with her jewelry sales. Remarkable young lady. Clearly she has supportive parents (they were both there), but she has a goal and is using her talent and drive to make it happen.

If a 15 year old can do it, most of us have no excuse.

http://www.rachelsjewelrymachias.com/

Click to expand...

Missed Rachel, but hey, there's one kid I can help. Just ordered a little thing for Ms. Patti. How often can a guy (safely) make two girls happy at the same time?

Hard work and dilegence

I guess I might be kinda out of the normal pool of pilots on here. I am a hand surgeon and have the disposable income to purchase the kits without a formal budget.

BUT....it took a long time to get to this point.

As a kid I worked hard to be able to fly. I bused tables at a Mexican restaurant and built RC planes for the guys at the flying field for a fee. I also had a small business fixing crashed RC planes and reselling them. I sold my Carl Goldberg Sukoi with a Saito 120 so I was able to solo. I had my pilots license at 17 after 52.5 hours. But then college, medical school, residency, fellowship happened. I didn't fly for 15 years. It killed me but that was the sacrifice to get where I am today.

My time/unlike money is my rate limiting step...cause I don't have a lot of it. Busy practice, wife, 5yr daugther and 22 month old son. But the joy of seeing my family come together and dimple, deburr or just hang out in the garage and play with clecos is priceless. I also try every day to do a little bit of work. I didn't get to be in the position I am overnight...and building a plane to fly my family around in won't happen quickly either.