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Tablets(IPAD) with Foreflight or Garmin 660

RV-4

Well Known Member
Hello Gents

I have a friend who owns a C-150 who wants to replace his old G296 GPS and he's not sure yet which way he should go...he's leaning toward an IPAD Mini with Foreflight (or any other tablet with Android if able to use Foreflight) or a G660 Gps ..

Not having much experience with an IPAD in my RV-4 I suggested to him that he buys the G660...

A tablet with Foreflight will be cheaper but the G660 is a nice GPS

What do you guys think...any suggestions or experiences you'll like to share??

Thanks

Bruno
 
Neither

iPad mini with WingX. Uses a lot less memory than Foreflight so you can buy a mini with less memory, e.g., cheaper. Also happens to be better in flight.
 
iPad Mini

I can't comment on the Foreflight or other EFB's used in the US as we basically have two options here in Australia, OzRunways or AvPlan; I use the later (also available in the US).

We flew from Brisbane to Charleville the to Birdsville, about 6hrs flight all up and on both occasions AvPlan put us bang on the runway centreline. The GNS430 was out by 10m.
 
660

I do not own a Ipad....mini or otherwise.
I did upgrade my 496 to a 660.
Very happy...
brighter easier to read screen in my RV-6 cockpit.
User friendly to. Love the touchscreen and it works well.
bigger screen but smaller / thinner unit than the 496.
plus it is on sale now for 100 off the 849 retail.
another thing I like is that Garmin is still updating the software to add features not just repair bugs!
 
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Ipad vs Aera 660

Bruno,

I have an Aera 660 in my RV-4 which can drive an autopilot and have an IPAD Mini 3 with Garmin Pilot. The 660 is BY FAR the better device. I only use the IPAD Mini when I fly cross country and usually it sits in the flight kit inflight. Normally just take it to have a computer on a trip.

The IPAD is not bright enough in sunlight but in a C-150 it probably would be OK and cheaper to find a used IPAD. Really can't beat the 660 though. The screen is really crisp and bright.
 
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Bad experience with iPad - went with iFly 740

My ipad mini would shutdown with overheating, almost impossible to read in bright cockpit. I went with the iFly 740 (actually have two)-- sunlight readable, great software, and super customer support.

The iFly supports most ADS-B products --- traffic and weather very useful. It will also drive many autopilots.

Ron
 
IFLY 740

I would second a vote for the IFLY 740. About as economical as you can get, sun light readable, great prices on chart updates, traffic/weather, drives the autopilot, customer support, etc.
 
My IPad is Used Primarily to Display Approach Plates

Works fine for this purpose - if I'm really on instruments, the lack of sunlight glare doesn't effect readability. In a bright cockpit it's a different story. You'll find yourself needing to mount or hold the iPad down low, out of direct sunlight. If it's mounted or held where sunlight can reach it, you'll need to use your hand or a chart to act as a shield. It's a great tool where it can be used effectively. As a primary resource inn the cockpit, not so much.
Terry, CFI
RV9A N323TP
 
I have an iPad Air 2 that I use in my C172. I have no visibility issues with it. I also used it in my friends RV-6A and it worked fine.

With earlier iPads I had to use an ant-glare screen protector. I used to have an original iPad when I owned a 150. The latest iPads have much improved performance in the glare area.

I find my iPad works very well for my aviation uses, and I like that I don't need a dedicated device. I find dedicated devices get outdated relatively quickly. My iPad has many uses besides aviation and has pretty much replaced my laptop. I update it every couole of years to the latest technology and is therefore up to date. I also have an iPhone that serves well as a backup for all its functions. It provides me internet connectivity without relying on a WiFi hot spot (I have a data plan). My iPad is in constant use, so always charged and ready to use. It is part of my normal routine, so I don't have to think about it when going to the airport or elsewhere.

The Area 660 is the only portable unit that I'd consider using, but so far my iPad has not disappointed me and I haven't found a reason to spend money on yet another device to have to keep charged and additional cables to carry along when I go somewhere. The iPad works extremely well in a high wing plane especially if you don't place it on the glare shield on a hot day. It can indeed shut down if you do that.
 
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I believe most of us hoped that the iPad combination with our favorite app would have been a better experience but the fact is a lot of us have had "challenges". There are many reasons amongst hundreds many thousands of us pilots that push us to move from using the iPad but from what I've gathered from the past is reliability, visibility and interoperability are the most prevelant reasons why we choose a purpose built GPS. I'm sure there are many people out there that use the iPad successfully for their mission. First person I can think of is Vlad. Although I don't him personally, I've seen many of the pictures that he has posted and his iPad has been there in the cockpit in those pictures. As with any equipment it really comes down to the individual and their mission. What you friend may find is that he will love Foreflight (I love both Garmin Pilot and Foreflight), but he may not be willing to put up with issues that come the iPad such as overheating, weak GPS signal when compared to a dedicated GPS, lack of visibility, possibly locking up at the exact time that he needs it, etc. etc. etc.
Many of us use the iPad with out favorite App to enhance our capabilities both on the ground and in the air and not necessarily replace our favorite tool.
 
Don't rule out FREE apps running on much less expensive Android tablets. I'm a big fan of the Nexus line of Android tablets running the excellent and FREE FltPlanGO app. Not as fancy as Foreflight, but a whole lot less expensive. A no-brainer for me. And my Nexus 6 cell phone is way brighter and easier to read than most dedicated cockpit displays.
 
I have a G696, an iPad Mini, and an iPhone, all with various aviation capabilities.

The 696 is essential. Bulletproof. It drives the autopilot, which the others can't do. It is readable in all conditions. It is panel mounted.

The iPad is great for flight planning on WingX. It can also hook up to my cheap ADS-B in solution, etc.

I keep the iPhone on an automotive mount on the left side of the cockpit. It has the same capabilities as the iPad.

In general, the iPad stays home, I fly with the 696, and have the iPhone there to pull up frequencies and (if the weather is sketchy) to use ADS-B. The 696 is the one I couldn't give up.
 
Don't forget Foreflight does not offer a android version.

WingX and Garmin do offer android versions but the WingX version is not as good as the iOS version

Take a look at this link if you want more info for WingX on iOS

Unoffical WingX user guide available

http://bit.ly/2cvFoQB

Single subscription allows WingX on multiple devices, including the iOS and android version concurrently
 
Ipad with ForeFlight

My preference (obviously) is the Ipad or Ipad mini. Use any EFB app you prefer. The Ipad has the advantage of ease of flight planning and you can remove it and take it anywhere. You will need a glare shield, but they are inexpensive. The Ipad will not be as bright as the Garmin, but still very usable. The more direct your sight line is, the better the viewing will be.
 
Nose wheel or tail wheel?

Everyone relying on tablets and an app will tell you that combination is the greatestesst.
Everyone relying on purpose built will tell you that they are even greaterer.

I've used both styles. Currently own a GPS496, GPS696, iPad, iPad2, and an android tablet.

Apps? Foreflight and Garmin Pilot. (never looked at the free ones)

My conclusions?
I use the 696 on every flight.
The 496 will be for sale soon.
The tablets are nifty toys but my only in flight use for them now is to keep passengers entertained/quiet.
 
I share some of @rolivi's opinions. I have an Aera 500 panel mounted, that is great for feeding frequencies to my Garmin 200 radio. It's good for navigation, but only if it's cloudy out. Any sunshine, and the screen becomes unreadable.

I just bought an Aera 660 to replace it. I'll sell the 500 to someone with a high wing or a large hood to place over it. It's still a great GPS, it's just not great if you want to use it outdoors. The 660 has a much brighter, higher-resolution screen, and uses a capacitive touchscreen like most tablets. I haven't mounted it on the panel yet but it shows great promise.

I also have a Nexus 7 tablet and a OnePlus 3 android phone. I use FltPlanGo on both. Like @rolivi, I use the Garmin on the panel more, and the tablets less. I attribute this more to the fact that my tablet is on my passenger seat, and the Garmin is on the panel. I have tried using velcro to mount my phone to the panel... When I did that I found the Garmin went unused except for the frequencies.

I am considering a panel upgrade that will include putting a tablet beside my Dynon and my Aera, so all three are available "up front and center" and without fumbling in the passenger seat or on my kneeboard. As an interim step i'm going to try a RAM mount for the phone at least, maybe for the tablet too, but I generally find the RAM solution to "feel wrong" when using it. I don't really like things sticking out off the panel, i'd prefer it if the tablet/phone were flush with the rest of the instruments. Maybe it's just my eyes not wanting to refocus. :)

Conveniently, it's cheap to try the free apps on your phone, and test these things. Foreflight, Garmin Pilot, FlightPlanGo, Avare, Naviator, all do the same things, all that's different is the user interface, and once you take the time to learn them they will be no different. FltPlanGo offers the most for Canadians right now (free charts) but in the US some of the other free ones are compelling too.
 
is there a sale on the 660?

Bob Martin mentioned a $100 off Sale on the 660 earlier in this post. any ideas on where that can be found?
Ron
 
I use Foreflight on an iPad Air 2 and have no complaints about the screen or anything else. It gets used a lot for flight planning and in flight for approach plates mostly or looking at weather sometimes. Otherwise I rely on the PFD / MFD in the panel.
 
iPad with Garmin Pilot

Get the iPad with Garmin Pilot. I use it all the time. Plan, file, fly, navigate, weather, log book, weight balance, traffic, log book and more.
 
I am using the Nexus 7 with the Ifly GPS app for android. This is a great combo. Excellent screen clarity with no readability issues, even using the sectionals. Easy updates, intuitive and very simple to use. Essentially no learning curve, just go.

The Nexus 7's can be had cheaply, I use an upgraded power cord and plug and it keeps up with charging no problem. Not sure how you could beat this for economy and service use.
 
one silly opinion

Bruno, as Mark and Rob have noted, there are limited options for Canada, the 'pay' option, Foreflight, with charts and CFS, only on iPad.........and the others, like FlightPlanGO, for android, which appears to have charts and the airport pages, for free!
....not sure how they handle the update cycle on the CFS.

If you are just a day VFR burger cruiser like me, all this becomes a wee bit less crucial.

I just signed up for another year of Foreflight, they have some $75 'basic' plan for Canada now, but not 100% sure what is included, it's a bit confusing.
FltPlanGo is free, but playing around with it on my Nexus 7 looks pretty, but I'm already used to the functions of Foreflight, and find FltPlan a bit less intuitive...( or is it I've just spent less hours playing with it, because it's 'free'?)

or could it be I'm just old, near-sighted, and a bit daft? :rolleyes:
 
IPAD VS G660

Thank you everyone for all the fine comments,

I've forwarded the info to my friend and as of right now, he's leaning toward the G660 with an IPAD Mini with either Foreflight(he's used to it) or FltPlan Go (I've just send him the link)

Perry, my friend is definitly a burger cruiser and flies just for fun so the easier the better.

Thanks again everyone

Bruno
 
Perry, my friend is definitly a burger cruiser and flies just for fun so the easier the better.
FYI - I've never owned a device with Foreflight on it. I've played with Foreflight on other people's devices, and find it confusing at times. My regular use is on FltPlanGo, which I find very easy to use.

Not suggesting either is better on usability overall, just saying that if I had used Foreflight a lot more than FltPlanGo I would probably find it the most intuitive. You learn what you have, and the more you use it the easier it gets. There's no cost to start with the free one.

(As for usability, I find the Aera 660 even easier than FltPlanGo or Foreflight, FWIW... But i've been using Garmins for 20 years so their UI philosophy is very familiar to me)
 
Bob Martin mentioned a $100 off Sale on the 660 earlier in this post. any ideas on where that can be found?
Ron

It's not only from Chief, here's a link direct to Garmin. Just click on the "Download rebate" link on this page:

http://garmin.blogs.com/promotions/2016/11/-garmin-2016-holiday-rebate.html#.WE-5dfkrKUk

I debated this very question in my mind for a long time before springing for a Garmin 660 just a few days ago. I already had an Aera 500, which I sold, and applied the proceeds toward the 660. There's really no comparison, the 660 is awesome! I can't wait to fly with it when my RV-7A takes to the skies.

I also bought the hardwired panel mount. The 660 snaps in and out of the unit very easily. I hope to have pictures of it very soon.
 
Aera 660, G5s and Garmin Pilot with GDL 39.

So when I had steam gauges, I used my iPad with Garmin Pilot on it. Later, I installed a GDL 39 ADS-B IN antenna for my iPad/Garmin Pilot combo. They worked fabulously. Weather and traffic were nice and big on my iPad and easy to use. True, the iPad does overheat when used with a cover, but I've found using it without a cover and in a MyGoFlight holder, it can operate indefinitely. It does use a lot of battery power, so my USB power port comes in handy.
Recently I upgraded my panel to two Garmin G5 units to replace my vacuum system. I also exchanged my outdated GPS with an Aera 660. What's nice about Garmin is they use similar icons and intuitive capabilities to ALL their products. You don't need a HELP button on any device.
I like the Aera 660, but as we've all seen technology get lighter, smaller and more capable, it's tough for me to see such small items and use it with my fat fingers.
However, the Aera 660 can and does, replace my iPad usage and gives me such fantastic situational awareness it's remarkable!
All the Garmin items I have now are updatable and so easy to use.
I've seen ForeFlight and even Jeppesen's products and my opinion these can't compare to Garmin.
I've visited the Garmin aviation factory in Olathe, KS and the way they test every item, plus seeing how it's made, convinced me of the quality and reliability of their equipment. They stand by each unit and will go out of their way to satisfy a customer. (and no, I don't work for Garmin)
 
G660

After reading through the posts in this thread, decided to go with the G660 over the Ipad.

Great thread for the pros and cons of each. Been away from flying for 20-years, so all of this new technology can be a challenge.

Once again Thank you everyone who posted their reasons for each device. Interesting reasons at that!

G 660 on order from Sporty's.

Best regards,
Mike Bauer
Dues Paid Dec 2016
 
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You Still Qualify

Frack. Wouldn't you know it, I ordered mine on November 11th and it shipped on the 21st... Two days before the cutoff (rebate starts on November 23rd). $100 would go a long way towards a database update. :(

Bought mine on the 22nd of Dec, shipped the 23rd. Thought I missed out as well, however a quick call to Garmin Rebate phone number cleared all this up.

If you purchased two weeks before the rebate of 23 Nov and two weeks after Dec 22, the rebate is an option.

You must send in the required paperwork by Jan 20, 2017.

Best regards,
Mike
 
More to the question

One of the considerations on an iPad (or any tablet) is WiFi only or cellular capable? If WiFi (or Bluetooth), will an 'external' AHRS or GPS signal be used for Position or Position/Location?

My iPad Mini4 is WiFi-only which means no internal GPS chip, and the cellular iPad's have an internal GPS chip, but my understanding is it's not as robust as an external GPS device. (External device such as a BadElf (Bluetooth) can quickly pair and provide a superior GPS feed.)

Lastly, the Dynon SkyView has a (currently $35) WiFi dongle which allows the ForeFlight app on an iPad to pair with the EFIS and feeds AHRS (GPS, Attitude, etc). I expect to hear soon that ADS-B in (TIS-B, and FIS-B) will be displayed on the map. Although the WiFi iPads can be tethered to a cell phone, the use of that feature inflight is poor plan. (more of a ground use for me, wouldn't depend for inflight.)

Using a RAM mount, and cradle, 'can' also add adjustable viewing angles, and with at least one brand, additional cooling.
 
iPad failure modes

Here are a couple of iPad failure modes, both of which happened to me on a long cross country last week.

1. The "network settings" became corrupted. As a result, I had no cellular capability on the ground to check weather, etc. The Wi-Fi still worked and the ADS-B (in) from my Stratus still worked. The fix, which Verizon just showed me today, was to do a "Reset Network Settings" Settings==>General==>Reset==>Reset Network Settings. After doing that, you'll also need to re-enter any Wi-Fi passwords you have been using.

2. Then, as I was cruising along above a solid layer, I got a warning that my iPad battery was down to 10%. I fly with the iPad charging continuously from ship's power, but somehow the lightning cable had gotten pulled out of the iPad. Needless to say I plugged the cable back in immediately. In the future, I plan to carry a spare lightning cable and a Backup Power Source.
 
I started by using a friends ipad/foreflight for a trip to the U.S. as my paper maps and airport directories never showed up in time for the trip.(RV6) I then started using my daughters old ipad mini/foreflight for awhile. I just purchased the newest mini with the anti glare screen and two different ram mounts. I have a metal tunnel/console which i mount it to and it comes up beside my thigh on a perfect angle. The other mount comes off the passenger side up higher for when I am solo. Also have a nice knee board. Here's where the story gets interesting. The only thing a mounted touch screen is good for is when the plane is in the hangar. In a word turbulence. I use the need board exclusively as I can stabilize my fingers using my palm as the base and can operate efficiently in any conditions.When it is in either mount my hand is bouncing around. Pretty much a bad senerio. This leads me to the next thing. I have an old 295 mounted and thought I would "upgrade" to a newer gps but they are mostly touch screens which I think would be as bad as what I have just described with the ipad experience. The 295 has buttons that i can operate in turbulence. How is everyone else finding the operation of these touch screens in the rough stuff?
 
Also wanted to say that when I using my daughters mini i purchase a garmin gps that links by blue tooth. I had read that they recommended having one even if the ipad had it's own internal gps or not to ensure you did not loose your signal. First flight from Port Clinton OH to Bloomington Indiana I lost the gps signal at least 3 times. And every local flight I made it was disconnecting. Bought the new mini with internal gps and have never lost a signal ever 10,000 and below. Checked with a couple other RV driver friends with the ipad internal gps and they have never lost a signal either. Still have the garmin gps on board but it disconnects every time for some reason. I just purchased a trutrak gemini AP and wanted to upgrade my gps but am afraid of the touch screen.
 
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