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Looks like those of us who use electronic charts are about to feel some wallet pain

N546RV

N546RV

Well Known Member
http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archives/avflash/2056-full.html#205722

FAA To Charge Companies For Online Charts, No Access For Individuals

The days of inexpensive navigation and chart apps for your mobile devices appear to be numbered with the FAA's announcement that it will begin charging for downloads that were previously free starting April 5, 2012. A story in the December issue of our sister publication Aviation Consumer says the Aeronautical Navigational Products Directorate (Aeronav), which currently makes the latest charts and other navigational products available online for free, says it has to recover the costs associated with developing and hosting the products. That means charging fees to companies for those downloads and no longer allowing individuals access them at all. As of April 5, only those with distribution contracts with Aeronav will be able to download the data. The most noticeable impact will likely be on the small but increasingly popular industry segment (like ForeFlight and WingX) that develops flight-related apps for iPads and other consumer electronics. It will also have an impact on websites like RunwayFinder that use the data for their online products, some of which are currently available for free. How much impact isn't known because the FAA hasn't announced what it intends to charge for the data. Affected companies have been invited to a meeting Dec. 13 in Washington to hear details of the FAA's proposal and offer input to the final pricing structure and the distribution contract.

Industry officials told Aviation Consumer that the market will likely reject significant increases in cost for apps and online products. Smaller providers and free websites may simply go out of business. Larger companies may try to keep their subscribers but with higher subscription prices. The pervasive fear in the industry is that this could lead to only one or two entities controlling the market for the distribution of government-produced information that is essential for flight safety. Aeronav spokeswoman Abigail Smith told Aviation Consumer the agency is determined not to let that happen but the new fees, whatever they are, will have to be enough to cover costs. "Because we're legislated, we can't collect more money than our cost," she said. "We're committed to the most affordable product line for the end user. But if revenue diminishes, the product line diminishes." Under the new contract structure, the FAA will also set standards for those using FAA data to create their products. There have been issues with data being made inaccessible in the production of some apps and the standards will ensure that all information on printed charts is available in any digital version.
Click to expand...

Cliff's: No more free chart downloads at all, and once the pay structure is implemented it'll only be for companies and not individuals. So if you use Foreflight or something similar, expect to see a price bump next spring.
 
Maybe, maybe not.

I would hope that if this comes to pass that Dynon (and the others) will make a pre-processor that will allow us end customers to download the raw data and format it for their respective systems.

I have no info if Dynon is going to do this, I'm just saying...
 
N941WR said:
I would hope that if this comes to pass that Dynon (and the others) will make a pre-processor that will allow us end customers to download the raw data and format it for their respective systems.
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If what the article says is implemented as stated, and as far reaching as it could be, how do you intend to download the raw data?

"That means charging fees to companies for those downloads and no longer allowing individuals access them at all. As of April 5, only those with distribution contracts with Aeronav will be able to download the data."

This is a user fee. Just in different clothing...
 
I am also curious how the redistribution or re-use of data retrieved from a contract holder will be controlled... Will they get some sort of copyright or more than what they add? Or will they have to employ strong DRM/copy-protection?

What happens if I scan & stitch charts, and sell that? :)

Wonder if this will affect the basic AFD / airport data, in digital form, as well?
 
The people need to be heard, BOFA even changed its policy when the shouting started. This seems to be the result of greedy companys:mad:
 
Free charts?

It always interest me when it is said that somthing from the government is "free". Don't forget that we already pay tax to the government and that tax money is what developed the charts in the first place. We have already paid for this service! Let the commercial companies who want to sell this data develope their own data and then the government can shut down that portion of the government and stop making us pay for it if it isn't being done anymore. That way, the charts that are being sold are truly the property of who is selling them. Does anyone know if the government is going to charge the commercial companies for data?

This isn't political because it isn't aimed at any political party but rather just a broken ystem.
 
Well, in theory some of the folks here have been invited to DC...

"Affected companies have been invited to a meeting Dec. 13 in Washington to hear details of the FAA's proposal and offer input to the final pricing structure and the distribution contract."

...any of our avionics folks going, or even invited?
 
I agree with Paul. We have paid for these already. Do I get a break on my taxes if they impliment this map user fee?
 
DCat22 said:
If what the article says is implemented as stated, and as far reaching as it could be, how do you intend to download the raw data?

"That means charging fees to companies for those downloads and no longer allowing individuals access them at all. As of April 5, only those with distribution contracts with Aeronav will be able to download the data."

This is a user fee. Just in different clothing...
Click to expand...

I thought I had read that they were going to charge companies but individuals would have free access. Unfortunately, I can't find that story so I must have been hallucinating.
 
So, we're going to just **** err... roll over & accept it? I'm amazed at how accepting of 'authority' a group of freedom loving individualists like pilots are. If pilots make themselves heard, with a reasonable & proper presentation, this does not have to stand. The obvious presentation is that we have already paid for the service through specific taxes, and there is no perceptible additional cost related to allowing universal access to the data, vs allowing only deep pockets corporations to access the data.

I know that most people find it hard to believe, but our representatives really do listen when groups of citizens take the trouble to make their opinions known. I can testify that it works; I've participated in actions that worked. [ed. Removed one sentence about elections. dr (politics rule at www.vansairforce.net/rules.htm ).

The reason I mention elected officials is that civil entities like the FAA respond quite well to top-down pressure from the organization that supplies their funding.

Charlie
 
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Wonder what a place like runwayfinder.com will have to pay for their open access type systems? Wonder if they are invited to comment? I'd love to see who made that list.
 
Mike D said:
I agree with Paul. We have paid for these already. Do I get a break on my taxes if they impliment this map user fee?
Click to expand...

Maybe you have recently heard, our country is going broke. What next, charging for the forms to fill out our taxes?
 
plehrke said:
What next, charging for the forms to fill out our taxes?
Click to expand...

Talk to your CPA. This is the time of year that they have to do their mandatory registration with the IRS for a PTIN. Required every year. So, yes, it's moving in that direction.
 
Paul K said:
It always interest me when it is said that somthing from the government is "free". Don't forget that we already pay tax to the government and that tax money is what developed the charts in the first place. We have already paid for this service! Let the commercial companies who want to sell this data develope their own data and then the government can shut down that portion of the government and stop making us pay for it if it isn't being done anymore. That way, the charts that are being sold are truly the property of who is selling them. Does anyone know if the government is going to charge the commercial companies for data?

This isn't political because it isn't aimed at any political party but rather just a broken ystem.
Click to expand...

Usually, Fed agencies are allowed to collect for their services, or in this case product (map) from the people who use it. US Parks, USPS, license fees, lease fees, and it this case maps are a product the agency can charge for if you buy the map.

My position certainly will not be popular, but you have to "pay to play". Allowing the Feds to collect something for a down loaded version for the maps seems reasonable to me. :eek:

Put another way, this is not the hill I want to die on.
 
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Geico266 said:
Usually, Fed agencies are allowed to collect for their services, or in this case product (map) from the people who use it. US Parks, USPS, license fees, lease fees, and it this case maps are a product the agency can charge for if you buy the map.

My position certainly will not be popular, but you have to "pay to play". Allowing the Feds to collect something for a down loaded version for the maps seems reasonable to me. :eek:

Put another way, this is not the hill I want to die on.
Click to expand...

There's a difference...YOU won't be able to pay the federal agency for the data. You'll have to get it through a for-profit company, and if the number of companies is small, then the price could become exorbitant.

You'll be dependent on the contract negotiator at the government making a decent contract that prevents you from getting ripped off.

Now, if everyone could get the data for a nominal fee (whatever that might be), then I'd be less opposed to this. That way, competition would keep the price low, you could write your own little conversion routines if you wanted, some companies might distribute it as a loss leader, etc.

But once it's down to just Garmin and Jepp as the distributors, watch out...
 
Larry, I wouldn't mind paying a couple bucks for charts/plates either, but nowadays we need access to the whole data set. Also, they want to farm it exclusively to some private companies who can set their own rates. I smell something stinky like eau d' Jepp, or a whiff of brimstone (lobbyist).
I signed the petition also.
 
Wonder if you can FOIA who was invited to DC as an "affected party"?

I'm not sure if they can/want to comment (as it could cast doubt on their product's updates and costs, so I understand staying mum until you know more) but I haven't seen anything from our resident avionics folks about being involved.
 
Before going the full FOIA route, which can be time-consuming and tends to put government agencies in a defensive mode, perhaps someone could just contact the organization personally? From AOPA's site:

The meeting will take place at AeroNav Products Logistics, 10201 Good Luck Road, Glenn Dale, Md., from 9 a.m. to 4:30 p.m. For more information about this event and to RSVP, please contact: Abigail ?Abby? Smith, Business Development Manager, 301/427-5068.
 
This is an interesting analysis, also at AOPA:

http://www.aopa.org/aircraft/articles/2011/111115faa-industry-to-meet-about-digital-chart-costs.html

Congress has given the FAA authority to charge for its products in order to recoup investment costs associated with producing and distributing the materials. The agency has long charged for its paper products. When digital aviation products were introduced to the industry, the agency gave them away for free. However, with the explosive growth of the products? use, the agency plans to apply its model for charging for paper products to its digital ones.
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Soooooo...as long as they weren't being *used* as much, they were free, but now that everybody needs them, they're charging for the data? :)
 
Flying Scotsman said:
Soooooo...as long as they weren't being *used* as much, they were free, but now that everybody needs them, they're charging for the data? :)
Click to expand...

That's not as unreasonable as you make it sound... The data needs to be generated anyway to make their dead-tree-editions (ie. Paper copies) anyway, so the cost of having the data is zero. The cost of distributing the data, however, has gone from the cost of distributing to a few to the cost of distributing to many. Given the size of a complete set of charts, it wouldn't surprise me if their bandwidth costs are rising.

On top of that, they are now selling less of the dead-tree versions, as people start using iPads/etc. for their reading. That means lower economies of scale on printing the paper copies, so don't be too surprised if the cost of them starts to go up too.
 
All the more reason for members of the public to have a seat at the table alongside the corporations...to understand just precisely *what* the cost basis is, and what it is projected to be in the future, etc.

Data generation costs are not included ("A price established under this paragraph may not include costs attributable to the acquisition of aeronautical data"); storage costs should be relatively fixed as there are only so many airports, airways, etc., and terrain tends to stay where it is (although near-line and off-line storage space may increase for archival purposes as data is updated); much of the infrastructure for delivery should already exist via government-owned networks and backbones and such; bandwidth costs should decrease over time for similar amounts of data; etc.
 
Don't get your knickers in a twist, fellas. I think it might have been the muppets here in Australia that set the precedent for the pay-per-view mentality in aviation chartage, but it isn't the end of the world.

Down here, I run OzRunways on the iPad - a brilliant bit of software (sorry for the plug, DR) and the cost of the annual updates for every VFR, IFR, approach chart, enroute supplement and Aeronautical Info Package in Australia is $110. If I wanted the paper versions, I'd be up for nearly $1,500...

Sure, it's another charge, but in the big scheme of things, it's costs less than an hour of flight time in the RV.
 
Individual Access?

KRviator said:
Don't get your knickers in a twist, fellas. I think it might have been the muppets here in Australia that set the precedent for the pay-per-view mentality in aviation chartage, but it isn't the end of the world.

Down here, I run OzRunways on the iPad - a brilliant bit of software (sorry for the plug, DR) and the cost of the annual updates for every VFR, IFR, approach chart, enroute supplement and Aeronautical Info Package in Australia is $110. If I wanted the paper versions, I'd be up for nearly $1,500...

Sure, it's another charge, but in the big scheme of things, it's costs less than an hour of flight time in the RV.
Click to expand...

Interesting... are the charts down there available from the gov't for paying individuals, or only corporations?

As others have said, I have no problem paying for charts... it's the 'corporate access only' part that seems wrong.

Also wondering if there's any precedent for this in the US with NOAA and Maritime charts. If not, the maritime community might be interested in the issue, as they could be next.

-jon
 
This whole change has already been disruptive.

Currently, the FAA is not releasing the data until the day before it takes effect. As a result, Nacomatic gave up, PDFPlates.Com (as of this writing) does not yet have the new plates up (that took effect today).

On the other hand, Naviator updated this morning, and I was a little surprised to see they had current stuff - impressive. Also impressive, I did a test trip kit on NavMonster and it too had the updated plates.

The sad part is that the data has been available for a little over two weeks. (FAA ATC / FSDO has had the DVDs with the updated information for about that long.) So much for flight safety. I guess the AeroNav view is that you just are going to have to do business with Jeppesen.
 
KRviator said:
Don't get your knickers in a twist, fellas. I think it might have been the muppets here in Australia that set the precedent for the pay-per-view mentality in aviation chartage, but it isn't the end of the world.

Down here, I run OzRunways on the iPad - a brilliant bit of software (sorry for the plug, DR) and the cost of the annual updates for every VFR, IFR, approach chart, enroute supplement and Aeronautical Info Package in Australia is $110. If I wanted the paper versions, I'd be up for nearly $1,500...

Sure, it's another charge, but in the big scheme of things, it's costs less than an hour of flight time in the RV.
Click to expand...

Nobody knows how much it will be...might end up being $500 or $1000 a year if the only way to get it is through Jepp, and the only way to use it is in their proprietary format.

As has been said, I don't think people mind paying a reasonable fee (after all, we did that with paper charts for years), but when the technology is available to provide it easier, more conveniently and cheaper (i.e., electronically), then artificially restricting distribution/sales to the highest bidder so they can then gouge the taxpaying consumer doesn't sit right.

But again...we don't know yet. And won't unless we have a rep at the meeting, or until the decision is made and announced with or without our input. (If it hasn't already been made, which is my suspicion).
 
Anyone here that could craft a FOIA request about the costs breakdown for digital products....production, hosting, etc?

And also to get a list of who exactly was invited to the FAA meeting about this in DC?

Those would be interesting data points.

DanBaier said:
So much for flight safety.
Click to expand...

That is part of my main beef:

- Decisions that appear to be negative to safety, to benefit the large players (the one-day-prior change)

- Corporate access only, if pay-only (I assume for data/redistribution protection)

The corp only actually makes a lot of sense from a protection standpoint, as if it was cheap open access, it would be trivial to buy a copy nd then republish it. Even if "not allowed" it would then be open access data that, as I understand the laws, then could not be protected. Holding a contract-holders feet to the fire for the release of trackable data provided to them is a different story.

Personally, if I ran an FBO or chart supply shop... I'd get a wide scanner, and scan the paper charts and put them all online for free. :) That doesn't solve for all the digital textual data that is needed by apps and avionics though.
 
DCat22 said:
Personally, if I ran an FBO or chart supply shop... I'd get a wide scanner, and scan the paper charts and put them all online for free. :) That doesn't solve for all the digital textual data that is needed by apps and avionics though.
Click to expand...
Nor does it save you from a call from a lawyer... Because you'd be distributing copyrighted material that you don't hold the copyright on.
 
Snowflake said:
Nor does it save you from a call from a lawyer... Because you'd be distributing copyrighted material that you don't hold the copyright on.
Click to expand...

are they?

as I steal this from the internets:

"U.S. government-produced works are not copyrighted as a matter of policy (17 USC 105)"


Perhaps someone more than a keyboard lawyer could shed some light.



Best Regards,
 
The speculation was that the distribution would be contracted out or that the distribution would switch to only being available through commercial channels. If that happens, the company that ends up distributing it would be idiots not to put a copyright notice on the materials. They would have to, to protect their investment in the business.
 
I would guess that Garmin /Jepp have lost a lot of $ with small players entering the market and eating their lunch.
 
Snowflake said:
The speculation was that the distribution would be contracted out or that the distribution would switch to only being available through commercial channels. If that happens, the company that ends up distributing it would be idiots not to put a copyright notice on the materials. They would have to, to protect their investment in the business.
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Yeah -- you could only do the scanning thing if the paper charts were still a US gov publication.... If they supplied raw data to a commercial provider who then created the charts, different story.

Of course, you could still do an aviation version of openstreetmap.org (for the US) and manage all the raw data, plus presentation, in an open format. But I doubt there is critical mass for that to be really effective -- and safe for flight. (And potentially run into issues with the FlightPrep patent, too.)

Sigh.
 
So my 2c.
Being the developer of one the smaller aviation applications I will attempt to keep making timely chart releases as long as possible.

However, since I'm definitely not making a lot of money (hmm, maybe I have a flawed business model, I guess pilots really DO want to pay $100+ a year for charts!) I can't guarantee anything, we will just have to see what the pricing of Aeronav will be (which they will announce in December or in April).

Until then I'll keep working on updates. If you haven't noticed the last release has both the VFR chart bulletin, the SUA info and the Published NOTAM for the 1112 cycle, as well as some planning charts for the Atlantic region (in the high enroute IFR portion).
 
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mosquito said:
Interesting... are the charts down there available from the gov't for paying individuals, or only corporations?

As others have said, I have no problem paying for charts... it's the 'corporate access only' part that seems wrong.

Also wondering if there's any precedent for this in the US with NOAA and Maritime charts. If not, the maritime community might be interested in the issue, as they could be next.

-jon
Click to expand...
From what I've found, the enroute charts are only available from the Government (Airservices Australia) in paper format, with the digital copies available from a number of commercial providers. The AIP and approach charts are available in digital format and for free from Airservices' website.

Admittedly I'm out of touch with the way the Feds work over the pond, but I honestly can't see them awarding the production/distribution to only one or two companies, thereby giving them free reign to charge what they like...I reckon it'll end up being something like we've got here in Australia.
 
DanBaier said:
This whole change has already been disruptive.

Currently, the FAA is not releasing the data until the day before it takes effect. As a result, Nacomatic gave up, PDFPlates.Com (as of this writing) does not yet have the new plates up (that took effect today).

On the other hand, Naviator updated this morning, and I was a little surprised to see they had current stuff - impressive. Also impressive, I did a test trip kit on NavMonster and it too had the updated plates.

The sad part is that the data has been available for a little over two weeks. (FAA ATC / FSDO has had the DVDs with the updated information for about that long.) So much for flight safety. I guess the AeroNav view is that you just are going to have to do business with Jeppesen.
Click to expand...

We have been paying for the data for over a year. We get an updated disk every 28 days , about a week before the due date from the government.

Rob Hickman
Advanced Flight Systems Inc.
 
I should have worded the message more carefully - according to what I have seen, those that pay a subscription fee to AeroNav can continue to receive the data early - at least until April 2012. After that, it's hard to tell from the announcement whether the data will be available to individuals or whether it will have to be obtained from commercial providers.
 
Strange business model....

glider said:
So my 2c.
Being the developer of one the smaller aviation applications I will attempt to keep making timely chart releases as long as possible.

However, since I'm definitely not making a lot of money (hmm, maybe I have a flawed business model, I guess pilots really DO want to pay $100+ a year for charts!) I can't guarantee anything, we will just have to see what the pricing of Aeronav will be (which they will announce in December or in April).

Until then I'll keep working on updates. If you haven't noticed the last release has both the VFR chart bulletin, the SUA info and the Published NOTAM for the 1112 cycle, as well as some planning charts for the Atlantic region (in the high enroute IFR portion).
Click to expand...

Heikki, I bought SkyChartPro about 18 months ago for my iPad. I thought that I would need to pay you some more money after a year to keep getting chart updates. I am still loading data and upgrading the software for the same $20.00.

Do you need some more money?

Kent
 
Just posted by Aviation International News is this FAA comment on the issue:

FAA Digital Charting Issue Much Ado about Nothing
Reports that the FAA would begin charging for digital downloads and close the navigational products website to individuals have stirred an outcry from pilots and fostered a White House petition in opposition. But an FAA spokesman said the agency already charges for downloads, and that the site will remain open to individual users. “What you paid for before, you [still] have to pay for,” he said. “It doesn’t change anything in that regard. That’s where one of the misconceptions is coming in–that we’re somehow trying to make a profit, or charging more.” According to the FAA spokesman, the only thing that is changing is that digital distributors must have contracts with the agency to ensure the accuracy of the product. “The reasons for these contracts go directly toward safety,” he said. Only companies that have distribution contracts with the FAA’s Aeronav division for navigation and chart apps will be affected, and they have been invited to a meeting December 13 in Washington, D.C., to hear details. The new system is set to take effect on April 5, 2012.

Curious, as the initial announcement seems to have indicated something different.
 
aerovin said:
Just posted by Aviation International News is this FAA comment on the issue:

FAA Digital Charting Issue Much Ado about Nothing
Reports that the FAA would begin charging for digital downloads and close the navigational products website to individuals have stirred an outcry from pilots and fostered a White House petition in opposition. But an FAA spokesman said the agency already charges for downloads, and that the site will remain open to individual users. ?What you paid for before, you [still] have to pay for,? he said. ?It doesn?t change anything in that regard. That?s where one of the misconceptions is coming in?that we?re somehow trying to make a profit, or charging more.? According to the FAA spokesman, the only thing that is changing is that digital distributors must have contracts with the agency to ensure the accuracy of the product. ?The reasons for these contracts go directly toward safety,? he said. Only companies that have distribution contracts with the FAA?s Aeronav division for navigation and chart apps will be affected, and they have been invited to a meeting December 13 in Washington, D.C., to hear details. The new system is set to take effect on April 5, 2012.

Curious, as the initial announcement seems to have indicated something different.
Click to expand...


The AvWeb article clearly stated:

"That means charging fees to companies for those downloads and no longer allowing individuals access them at all. As of April 5, only those with distribution contracts with Aeronav will be able to download the data."

Something's rotten in Denmark... :)
 
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