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OK, RV-14 Builders. Let's hear some updated "cost to build" estimates.

PilotFuse

Member
While deciding between the RV-7 and the RV-14, I've been reading a bunch of old threads about total project cost. I know the Van's estimator says you can get something done with a decent VFR panel for $90K, but that doesn't seem realistic based on some of the numbers I've been hearing.

It's almost 2017, and there are a lot of people getting close to finishing their -14s. For those of you who are close to done or finished already, how much are you going to be into your project when all is said and done?

Why am I asking? I placed an order on Friday for an RV-7 empennage based on what I'm considering to be a pretty substantial cost differential between the two models. Today, I received an e-mail from Stoney where he outlined a lot of things he loves about his -14 compared to the -7 he used to own. Now, I'm second guessing myself. Thanks, Stoney! :D I know this all comes down to mission, but I'm confident the -14 is probably a better fit, so long as it's possible to build one without putting $120K or more in. To repeat what I said to Stoney: "I want the right plane for me, but I also don't want to forego being able to finish while searching for perfection I can't afford."
 
Any chance Stony could make that emai public. Sounds interesting!

I wouldn't normally just post a personal message, but I think he'd be comfortable sharing this:

I've owned a 7 that I did not build and now fly my RV-14. Major considerations: what is your mission, cross country trips or shorter trips and aerobatics? 14 is absolutely hands down better cross country and will do aero, just not quite as nimble as the 7. Flies much more stable though. Have you built a plane before? 14 hands down over the 7 is parts and ease of build. Much more advanced kit. With the 7, you have a lot more fabrication and chance for error and will definitely take longer to build. The view out of the 14 is tons better, bigger canopy, lower sides.

I would only consider the 7 if I had a strict budget, were not taller than 5'8" and 170lbs, had built a plane before. Feel free to contact me for further explanation if you like.
 
I know the Van's estimator says you can get something done with a decent VFR panel for $90K, but that doesn't seem realistic based on some of the numbers I've been hearing.

Sure it is if you are willing to avoid the urge to keep up with the Joneses. My 9A came in under $60k, including a 700 hour O-320 with 0-time cylinders, and a FP Sensenich metal prop, also 700 hours. I have a full, redundant GRT glass panel and modern transponder and radio (GTR-200). I could add an autopilot and IFR nav source for under $5k (and I plan to in the future). I could still be under $90k with a brand new engine.

Can you spend 3 times as much? sure. Do you need to? No.

I would add that it is probably harder to save money on the 14 kit as many decisions like avionics are essentially made for you. It is a more complete kit, but that means less places to be stingy and source your own used equipment, etc.

Chris
 
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While deciding between the RV-7 and the RV-14, I've been reading a bunch of old threads about total project cost. I know the Van's estimator says you can get something done with a decent VFR panel for $90K, but that doesn't seem realistic based on some of the numbers I've been hearing.

At issue is the panel/paint job/interior/FWF war that has been ongoing for a decade or more. People are gravitating towards more expensive options. But you don't have to.

You can install a 180 HP engine and a FP prop. You won't see many people bragging about doing that.

Paint, panel, and interior are similar. There are functional alternatives, and there are higher cost alternatives that are sexier.

It comes down to choices.
 
You can install a 180 HP engine

Not in a -14...you need an angle valve engine for CG reasons, and decent core engines that you can overhaul are harder to find at bargain prices than an O-320 for example that could be used on a -6/7/8/9 if you're on a tight budget.
 
Not in a -14...you need an angle valve engine for CG reasons, and decent core engines that you can overhaul are harder to find at bargain prices than an O-320 for example that could be used on a -6/7/8/9 if you're on a tight budget.

I stand corrected. Why'd I think the 180 was approved?
 
I just did a quick check on what is included in the 14 estimate. I can say absolutely that you can build it for the $91.5 quoted on the low end.

A few caveats.

The price listed had the list price of the engine but did not list the firewall forward kit. However, with the engine price specials that Van's runs during Sun-n-fun and Airventure, you can get the engine, prop and FF kit for about the list price of the engine and prop.

The price had no tools included. If you have a fully equipped airplane factory at your disposal then you're fine. I built a plane before the 14 so I had a great deal of tools but still needed more. First plane used blind rivets.

The price had a budget of $8,000 for instruments. You can do a lot with that but you can be sucked into a lot more very quickly. Remember, Stein's motto is 'we're not happy until your broke'. Their work is terrific, but if you're on a strict budget you might be buying used equipment and making all the hookups to the included wiring yourself.

If you stick to the estimate you will also be sitting on bare aluminum. Buy foam and make your own.

Lights, trim, etc, etc.

It really comes down to two differences for price. For the 7 you have cheaper engine/prop options and the difference in the basic kit price.

All the extras listed above are extras on the 7 as well. As on both planes, the extras are not needed to fly. They are want to haves not need to haves.

If you're ok with $90 and no extras, build the 14. It can be done.
 
Mike,

There is a guy starting a 14 project in Falmouth, Mass. I will pick you up and we can go visit him.

Now, I just ran a few numbers and i dare say that his cost of getting the emp, quickbuild wings and fuse along with his IO-390 (no avionics, prop, interior or doo-dads) will be about equal to my completed 7!

...as you know, my 7 has a few bells and whistles too!

I am really looking forward to watching him build this 14! From my understanding, he is going to go all out.

:cool: CJ
 
Mike,

There is a guy starting a 14 project in Falmouth, Mass. I will pick you up and we can go visit him.

Now, I just ran a few numbers and i dare say that his cost of getting the emp, quickbuild wings and fuse along with his IO-390 (no avionics, prop, interior or doo-dads) will be about equal to my completed 7!

...as you know, my 7 has a few bells and whistles too!

I am really looking forward to watching him build this 14! From my understanding, he is going to go all out.

:cool: CJ

I'm here whenever you can make the trip! I'd love to check it out.

Here's what I'm looking at for cost, should I go the RV-14 route:

  • Tools: Already ordered, maybe another $1,500 over the course of the project?
  • Empennage Kit: $4,100 w/ Tailcone
  • Wing Kit: $7,835
  • Fuselage Kit: $10,775 (I've increased cost by 10% to account for kit price increased by the time I order.)
  • Finish Kit: $13,915 (I've increased cost by 10% to account for kit price increased by the time I order.)
  • Firewall Forward Kit: $7,000 (Not sure on this. Someone feel free to correct if this is off base.)
  • Experimental IO-390 210HP from Van's $37,500 (This is recent Oshkosh price plus 10%.)
  • C/S Propeller: $9,000 (Not sure on this. Someone feel free to correct if this is off base.)
  • Miscellaneous (Seats, Grips, Electrical, Lights, Primer, etc.): $10,000

This looks like you can get to panel stage with everything new for just over $100K. I'm assuming you can build a mid-level glass, IFR-capable panel for $20K or so? Still, it adds up.
 
I'm assuming you can build a mid-level glass, IFR-capable panel for $20K or so? Still, it adds up.

You'd need to scrounge to accomplish that. I recently received estimates of around $20k for the major components of a Garmin single screen VFR panel with EIS, A/P, radio, intercom, and transponder. Harnesses were included. That $20k didn't include an IFR legal GPS. A Dynon based quote was slightly less. There were no switches, breakers, etc. in the estimate.

You're probably closer to the low/mid $30k region for a new two screen IFR panel where you do the panel assembly. Add >$5k to have someone cut, paint, label, assemble, and bench test your new panel.
 
Plus Paint

Add the cost of a paint job, or the paint and the equipment to do it. Those costs are going to be surprising.
 
Kyle is right.

The better part of 30k is more like it.

You would want to have new components in a new plane... Especially one like that. Used and antiquated components wouldn't do the project justice.

What did I pay for my GTN 650? I think that one component alone was north of ten grand by a healthy margin?

I suppose that if all things are equal (avionics, prop and doo-dads) the only cost deltas would be the kit and engine prices.

If you plan ten grand for each it would be twenty grand more for the 14. Unless of course you start to add on 14 specific upgrades like Beringer parts and whatever else might come out new in the next few years.

;) CJ
 
I agree with pilotfuse.

then add $4-7K for paint and $25K for avionics. I assume that the total will end up more like $140K.

Then add about $3-5K for tools (for me the high side of that--probably $6K). Probably $1200 to 1500 for shipping all the kits. Not sure about the engine and prop shipping.

I assume that it will be $140K when I am done.

And I thought that it would be in the 90-100 range when I started.
 
I've been thinking about the cost difference between a 9 and a 14.

I put together a spreadsheet of basic costs between a 9 (I started a 9 years ago), a 10 (just for grins and for cost purposes soon forgot about), a 12 (which I'm building now) and a 14. I used Van's current order sheets for all of the cost figures.

I figure the panel is going to cost the same regardless of which model I put it in. So I would probably have the same panel in a 14 as I would put in a 9 (or my 12). The 12 was going to cost me around 25k for a new panel; that was a full dual screen, ADSB, auto-pilot, radio, transponder, etc. No IFR GPS for now.

The basic Van's kit prices (emp, wing, fuse, & finish) put a 14 about 9k more than 9 or a 12. That was roughly 33.5k for the 14 and 24.5k for the 9 and 25k for the12.

I'm guessing on mid-time engine costs for the 14, but heck taking care of a good mid-time from a reliable source would probably get me more than enough flying time to keep me happy for years! Not only that but you can still use the plans to tell you where to run everything for that mid-time angle valve.

Add the fact that the 14 would be easier and quicker to build, is actually roomy and it gets me to leaning hard towards a 14. Having worked on the 12 and having everything laid out step by step is a huge plus for me. Very little guess work.

Buy the plan CD's for the models you're looking at considering. They only cost $10 a piece. You can sit through those and see the differences.

Not everything needs to be shiny and new. Heck I'm not!

So you make your choices based upon where you and your wallet dance.

Either way its an RV - you can't go wrong!

Bob
 
140K is a realistic number for a well equipped 14. The best value for the money if you are: full figured, want to do more cross country flying than acro and want a completed kit in a lesser amount of time than was I ever thought possible.
 
I'm here whenever you can make the trip! I'd love to check it out.

Here's what I'm looking at for cost, should I go the RV-14 route:

  • Tools: Already ordered, maybe another $1,500 over the course of the project?...
Oh, I needed a good laugh today, thanks!

I had a LOT of tools; automotive, plumbing, woodworking, and carpentry when I started but none of that prepared me for all the specialized tools required for aviation construction. When just one of four rivet sets for my squeezer is over $120, you start to realize that you can buy a flying RV for a LOT less than you can build. Still, I would build again in a heartbeat.

This looks like you can get to panel stage with everything new for just over $100K. I'm assuming you can build a mid-level glass, IFR-capable panel for $20K or so? Still, it adds up.

You can build a simple VFR panel, fly with that for the first year or two and then decide if you really need to put in all that expensive IFR stuff. If you decide you MUST have an IFR panel, you will have the skills and tools to do the upgrade.

I have seen a LOT of people build themselves a mini-Airbus and never park the plane outside at night because it might get dew on it.

Remember, with whatever kit you elect to go with, you will be learning new skills and you will be damaging (destroying) parts, which you will replace. The -14 kit is light years ahead of the -7 kit, and the -7 kit is light years ahead of the -4 & -6 kits, which were much better than the -3 kit. Still, rivets don't pound themselves and you will be spending a lot of time in your shop so make sure it is comfortable.
 
My numbers

I did the same comparisons between the 9 and 14. I came to the conclusion that the 14 is 150% more than the 9 (or 7). This is during build and also operating costs. But if you don't fit comfortably in the 9 or your budget allows, then the 14 is it. JMHO.
 
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I was all set to go with the -7. Wife and I sat in the -14 in Oshkosh and that was it. Came home and ordered the -14. I'm not that big, but loved the space in the -14.

Regarding the cost. I budgeted for 140k. My guess is it will come in higher as I won't be ready for the engine and avionics for quite a while. I'm making the assumption things will increase in cost by the time I'm ready.

One last thing...what's your time worth? A major portion of the decision was that I thought I'd be able to build a safer aircraft more quickly with a -14. Although I wanted to build for the sake of building, having a finished project was the ultimate goal. Having it better and in less time was worth something to me.

Fred
 
One last thing...what's your time worth? A major portion of the decision was that I thought I'd be able to build a safer aircraft more quickly with a -14. Although I wanted to build for the sake of building, having a finished project was the ultimate goal. Having it better and in less time was worth something to me.

Not to rain on the parade but I'm not convinced you'll be able to build a -14 any faster than a 7. The -14 is without question a more advanced kit, and some areas like the canopy will be faster and easier than a -7, BUT those gains are offset by the fact that the -14 is also a larger, more complex airplane. Taking the wings for example, they are not only larger with more holes to dimple and rivet, but you've got J channel stiffeners running full span in three places that aren't on the -7 wings, larger fuel tanks to proseal together, larger flaps, and riveted trailing edges that are significantly more work to build than the bent trailing edges on the -7. Likewise the fuselage has more parts, the control system has more parts, the nosegear has more parts, etc. Mitch Lock (Vans east coast rep) told me he thought the -14 was just as much work as the -7 and I think he's right.

There are lots of great reasons to build the -14, but getting it done in less time is probably not one of them.
 
Why I choose the -7

I did the same comparison about a year ago while I was deciding. I choose the -7 because it much cheaper to build but also to fly. the IO-390 eats quite a bit more gas and I was planning on a used mid time engine. There aren't as many of them around. I keep reading you should build the plane "you" want!

I want light simple fun VFR.

Now, as far as build time goes. When I placed the order I thought I could get the tail feathers done in a month or two. This is quite possible but "life gets in the way" more easily than you think.
 
I did the same comparison about a year ago while I was deciding. I choose the -7 because it much cheaper to build but also to fly. the IO-390 eats quite a bit more gas and I was planning on a used mid time engine. There aren't as many of them around. I keep reading you should build the plane "you" want!
...
Excellent point!

As a friend of mine said, "If you think building is expensive, just wait until you start flying."
 
Cost of building v cost of ownership?

As budget/economics/value all appear to be the primary concern, consider the cost of overall ownership in your decision. It will be a factor if you are as many of us, working from a budget, not only on the airplane, but for your family and for day to day life.

One other thing, IMHO, don't get caught up in what it would be worth when it comes time to sell it. Build what you can comfortably afford and what will best achieve your mission, within your budget. Just make sure the third wheel is behind the main gear :)
 
the IO-390 eats quite a bit more gas and I was planning on a used mid time engine.

This is often stated here in the forums (and elsewhere) but is just not true.

Sure, if you fly at low altitudes and use 75% power settings it will burn a lot of fuel, but that is true with any of the engines we use in RV's.

Even though the RV-14(A) is a bigger heavier airplane, it's longer wing and custom design airfoil makes it a very efficient airplane at altitude.

I have made numerous cross country trips in the prototype 14A (IO-390 and blended airfoil Hartzell). If flown at 10.5K-11.5K it will true out at about 172 Kts burning ~ 8.4 GPH. That is 198 MPH TAS. Compare that to the RV-7 performance #'s and I think you will find they are very similar.

So you might say "but a 180 HP RV-7 will be more economical". Not really.

Yes, it will have a slightly lower fuel flow at a slightly slower speed, but if you pull the IO-390 RV-14 along side and match its speed (at altitude), the fuel flow will be nearly identical.

I don't disagree that there are other factors that will influence the build and operating cost between the two, but the amount of fuel you will use is not one of them.
 
Having built an RV-7 and an RV-14A, both from standard kits, it is my opinion that they will take a novice builder equally as long to construct. Reason is that although there is slightly more fabrication and much more tedium due to the pre-punched design of the 7 vs. the matched hole design of the 14, the 14 is a larger aircraft. Simple as that. YRMV.
 
$170000 is probably about right for a Aussie builder who wants nice avionics, seats etc. I just hop that my wife doesn't read this forum:eek:
 
"I just hope that my wife doesn't read this forum"

Reminds me of the Sportsman's prayer!

Please Lord, when I die do not let my wife sell my things for what I told her I paid for them!
 
I decided I don't want to know what my airplane cost to build - it will just detract from my enjoyment. I hope it is about $40k (bought a project that had an engine in pieces) but if it balloons to $50k I will simply pretend it cost me $40k. Ignorance is bliss. If I could delete my list of invoices from the ACS website I would.
 
...until the tax man cometh...

I decided I don't want to know what my airplane cost to build... Ignorance is bliss. If I could delete my list of invoices from the ACS website I would.

All fine and good until you sell it and you need to report the proceeds from the sale as income on your tax return. At that point you really want to be able to prove that your basis in the airplane was as high as possible to minimize your tax owed. If you can show a good basis coupled with the fact that you had the airplane long enough to be taxed at the long term capital gains rate, it should reduce your tax liability to little or nothing. Remember it's important to be able to prove basis even if you sold it at a loss...if you had $70K of income from the sale of an RV and you believe you had $90K invested in it, the IRS isn't going to take your word for it...you better be able to prove it if needed. And BTW you can't count the value of your labor as part of the basis (unless you previously paid taxes on the value of that labor while building it).

I know several people who have sold RVs and chosen not to report the income, but that's rolling the dice...if you get audited the IRS can review statements from all your financial accounts, and if they discover significant unreported income you'll be facing stiff fines & interest on top of the taxes owed, and they'll probably be less likely to give you the benefit of the doubt about how much you claim to have invested in the airplane if you don't have good documentation for it.
 
The cost of both is not as quoted... by anyone!

I started my build in 2002 ordering an empennage kit, at that time it was said that with a used engine 40K Cdn would get er done.

Well life, a divorce, a marriage and other stuff got in the way and here i am about 70 percent finished the now RV 7.

A simple panel with Skyview and A/P and I will order the new Sensenich adjustable prop and this plane will finish out about 62,000 Canadian. Way more than expected.

I am unsure why so many hold these cost close to the chest but there are mine and i should mention that I source a used R 22 0 320 and had it "reviewed" of 5000 Cdn as part of that cost.

I have no opinion on the fourteen, I had a C 182 before and yes I do find my RV 7 a bit snug but that was what I bought it for a sport airplane. I am a little dismayed bout the cross country "feel" i read here but I will find that out this spring during the first flight and 25 hrs.

Good luck with your choice.... like the fellow said above... no matter what you choose it will be a Vans RV and that is good enough in itself.:eek::eek:
 
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