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Drone (?) close call

climberrn

climberrn

Well Known Member
On Sunday my wife and I were flying from KSTS to KCXP direct, at about 9,500. Autopilot on, smooth air, talking to Oakland center for VFR advisories. About 10 miles east of KAUN, Oakland called out traffic near my elevation, when we finally saw it pass under us a couple hundred feet headed south it appeared to be a white canard, but seemed too small, and just didn't look right. Didn't think too much about it. Notified OK ctr "not a factor."

About a minute later, my wife yells "what's that" and points to 11 o clock and grabs the stick. I saw it just before it passed under our left wing. Close enough to shake me up. We promptly notified OK ctr, and they didn't have it on radar. I got a pretty poor look at it, but the best I can tell it was a few feet across, dark shinny blue and black with a dome on top. The dome appeared the size of a soccer ball, but shinny and smooth. Thought it was a quad copter, but could have been a short fixed wing.

We were 4-5k agl, and in the foothills of the Sierra Nevadas. The nearest town or road was miles away. Looked on the FAA site about reporting it further, but could not find out how. Probably a mood point now. We always try to fly 9-11k feet just to avoid instances like this.

Spoke with a friend that used to fly FPV electric fixed wing planes a few thousand feet AGL, and up to 35 miles away. I know..., we had a talk about that several years ago, and he doesn't do that anymore. He was not aware of any hobby quad copter types that have that much range. Military, surveying???

Just wanted to vent, and share my experience.
 
NASA Safety Reporting System

Why not report this to the NASA Safety Reporting System? Although we usually think of the NSRS as a place to give us a "free pass" for possible infractions, I'm wondering if it also could be used to document "near misses" like yours.
I'd try it.
 
There needs to be a more aggressive education campaign out there for drone operators and hobbyists.
I often see drones flying near our beach home in Manzanita OR. Nehalem Bay State Airport is 1.1 miles away. They are clearly in violation.
A local neighbor is a real estate agent. They use a drone to photo their properties. He proudly showed me how he uses it. I asked him if he knew the rules. He said "Yes", I can not fly over 400' AGL. I asked about airports. He didn't know. I told him it was two miles and he was only 1 mile away. Since the bulk of his properties are within 2 miles of the airport, he should have just shut it down, but continues to use it for his business.
It isn't just hobbyists or non aviation people either. I was flying into Scappoose for fuel, a common fuel stop. As I turn final, I notice someone operating a drone in the field just south of THEIR open hangar, within about 200' of the runway. Just plain stupid.
I am afraid it is going to take an incident or serious accident before people wake up to this threat.
I HATE DRONES (or at least irresponsible drone drivers)! They are a threat to aviation. They have violated my privacy many times. I have even considered carrying a shot gun with bird shot onto the Golf course for the next time the operator thinks it is fun to fly over me on the course (guess who would go to jail?) My middle finger doesn't seem to work.

Sorry to add to the "vent".
 
Glad to hear you two are ok, a 20 LB piece of junk coming through the canopy at 200 MPH is not going to be good. there needs to be more federal regulations on this subject. an acquaintance was up visiting family last month and he had a 3,00.00 semi pro quad drone for filming, he also said that he was limited to 400 ft AGL, but then he said watch this, va ROOM! up and out of sight and could not hear it or see it, said he just went 2,000 Ft AGL, and then brought it back down. I told him my concerns about this very subject. Mandatory ADSB on every drone ?
 
JonJay said:
There needs to be a more aggressive education campaign out there for drone operators and hobbyists.
I often see drones flying near our beach home in Manzanita OR. Nehalem Bay State Airport is 1.1 miles away. They are clearly in violation.
A local neighbor is a real estate agent. They use a drone to photo their properties. He proudly showed me how he uses it. I asked him if he knew the rules. He said "Yes", I can not fly over 400' AGL. I asked about airports. He didn't know. I told him it was two miles and he was only 1 mile away. Since the bulk of his properties are within 2 miles of the airport, he should have just shut it down, but continues to use it for his business.
It isn't just hobbyists or non aviation people either. I was flying into Scappoose for fuel, a common fuel stop. As I turn final, I notice someone operating a drone in the field just south of THEIR open hangar, within about 200' of the runway. Just plain stupid.
I am afraid it is going to take an incident or serious accident before people wake up to this threat.
I HATE DRONES (or at least irresponsible drone drivers)! They are a threat to aviation. They have violated my privacy many times. I have even considered carrying a shot gun with bird shot onto the Golf course for the next time the operator thinks it is fun to fly over me on the course (guess who would go to jail?) My middle finger doesn't seem to work.

Sorry to add to the "vent".
Click to expand...

I'd use a paintball gun. Basically no regulations on them and just as effective. :D
 
climberrn said:
I got a pretty poor look at it, but the best I can tell it was a few feet across, dark shinny blue and black with a dome on top. The dome appeared the size of a soccer ball, but shinny and smooth. Thought it was a quad copter, but could have been a short fixed wing.
Click to expand...

Could also have just been a toy balloon ("size of a soccer ball, dome shaped on top...."). I know that drones are the popular thing to rant about these days, but I have encountered far more toy balloons adrift in this world than drones - even in the modern environment. Just saying....the area you are describing is pretty remote for anyone to be operating one, so if you are looking for the simplest answer, there are a lot more balloons than drones.

Why is it important? There has yet to be a confirmed drone strike on an airplane, damage or no damage. While it is popular in pilot circles to consider drones the spawn of the devil, let's think about where we all came from. I bet many of us came from the model airplane world. They got us our start in aviation. We became hooked and graduated to full size flying. Now model airplanes are falling under the same scrutiny by the FAA as drones, and are being painted with the same brush. after all, an R/C model is just a drone...right? If we make it really difficult for people to own and fly model airplanes, how are we going to get kids to catch the aviation bug? Where is the pipeline?

Sure - big commercial drones need to be carefully looked at, and if they are an actual threat (as opposed to a theoretical one) to aviation, then we should consider rules and where they should be operated. But let's not hysterically join the "absolutely no drones!" crowd because it can seriously affect GA's future participants.

Privacy issues? Totally another matter, and one that is serious - I agree JonJay....but let's not give the totally anti-flying-machine crowd the argument that all pilots are against drones because they are a safety hazard.

Paul

BTW - the only drone I have I fly indoors, I never could afford R/C models (because I fly big airplanes), and my control line models have been collecting dust for forty years - so I am not arguing to protect my modeling hobby.
 
Ironflight said:
Could also have just been a toy balloon ("size of a soccer ball, dome shaped on top...."). I know that drones are the popular thing to rant about these days, but I have encountered far more toy balloons adrift in this world than drones - even in the modern environment. Just saying....the area you are describing is pretty remote for anyone to be operating one, so if you are looking for the simplest answer, there are a lot more balloons than drones.

Why is it important? There has yet to be a confirmed drone strike on an airplane, damage or no damage. While it is popular in pilot circles to consider drones the spawn of the devil, let's think about where we all came from. I bet many of us came from the model airplane world. They got us our start in aviation. We became hooked and graduated to full size flying. Now model airplanes are falling under the same scrutiny by the FAA as drones, and are being painted with the same brush. after all, an R/C model is just a drone...right? If we make it really difficult for people to own and fly model airplanes, how are we going to get kids to catch the aviation bug? Where is the pipeline?

Sure - big commercial drones need to be carefully looked at, and if they are an actual threat (as opposed to a theoretical one) to aviation, then we should consider rules and where they should be operated. But let's not hysterically join the "absolutely no drones!" crowd because it can seriously affect GA's future participants.

Privacy issues? Totally another matter, and one that is serious - I agree JonJay....but let's not give the totally anti-flying-machine crowd the argument that all pilots are against drones because they are a safety hazard.

Paul

BTW - the only drone I have I fly indoors, I never could afford R/C models (because I fly big airplanes), and my control line models have been collecting dust for forty years - so I am not arguing to protect my modeling hobby.
Click to expand...

Points well taken Paul. In an age where we are struggling to attract people, especially the young, we wouldn't want to lose an avenue.
 
Ironflight said:
While it is popular in pilot circles to consider drones the spawn of the devil, let's think about where we all came from. I bet many of us came from the model airplane world. They got us our start in aviation. We became hooked and graduated to full size flying. Now model airplanes are falling under the same scrutiny by the FAA as drones, and are being painted with the same brush. after all, an R/C model is just a drone...right? If we make it really difficult for people to own and fly model airplanes, how are we going to get kids to catch the aviation bug? Where is the pipeline?
Click to expand...


Thank you Mr. Dye,

I started out flying R/C aircraft and that is what inspired me to take PPL lessons decades ago. I remained, off and on in the R/C world, throughout the years, and even went in to the R/C Jet scene when you could build your own miniature turbine (Shreckling/Kamps). As the micro turbines became popular so did the crowd that thought they could just jump straight into flying one without building up to the skill level required. Since those days, the restrictions and requirements, from the AMA, created an environment for me that turned me away from the hobby not to mention where I lived at the time (dry Socal), restricted me to pretty much the dry lake beds which were hours away.

The problem I see with drones these days is that anyone with a iPad or Samsung tablet can fly one. No longer do you have to manually fly them, build your skills, crash spend money, crash again, something that took you weeks/months to build, crash again. The "out of the box", charge the battery, download the app from the app store and go flying has opened up a pandoras box of potentially irresponsible people that seem to be the ones gracing the news and the eyes of the FAA.

I am still involved with autonoumous and remotely piloted vehicles but more from a data aquisition standpoint. I do run across quite a few people that shouldn't even be flying a rubber band/balsa model you used to get at the dime store. With these 'out of the box' drones now, we are going to see more of this but I'm not sure if more regulation is going to keep those who don't follow the rules to begin with or have common courtesy in check anyway.

--Erik
 
I had a close call a few weeks ago when flying in the pattern at my home airport. It was at night after the tower had closed. As I was about 1/2 way through my base leg, I saw a light that appeared to hover slightly to my right and slightly above. It appeared to be about 600 AGL based on my altitude. It definitely appeared to be under power, not just drifting like a balloon or lantern. After I landed I went home and tried to find a way to contact the FAA (didn't think to call Pitt Approach once I was on the ground-doh!). What I was able to dig up was that the FAA recommends reporting drone near misses to "local law enforcement." I called our local police dept and was forwarded to the county dispatcher since it was after hours. They didn't really know what to do so I told them the FAA's web site said to contact them. The dispatcher took my info and had an officer call me back. She was partially knowledgeable but it was hard to get across that they didn't need to send a cruiser to the airport since I wasn't there and the drone operator probably wasn't either. They asked about how to drive on the runway(!) and I told them that was inadvisable because the field does not close at night.

Doesn't seem like there is a good way of getting this info to the FAA other than maybe calling the local FSDO well after the fact.
 
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I don't know how their communication/guidance controls work (possibly they're autonomous) but perhaps airport authorities could employ jamming technology to prevent drones from operating within the control zone+. Does anyone know what frequency they operate on? and what happens when they lose their guidance signal?

Bevan
 
It depends. I'm sure there are a number of control frequencies and schemes. Some can operate unguided, some will probably just land (gracefully or otherwise) if they lose their control signal.

And if you're intentionally radiating a signal to interfere with some other user or service, the FCC will have something to say to you about it... unless you're a Fed agency, in which case you can pretty much do what you want.
 
I've often wondered why the drones subjected to a 400' AGL limit are not (apparently) equipped with an altitude limiting function, perhaps GPS based? (in fact, I'm wondering that very thing right now <gr>)
 
Point well taken Paul. I have seen several loose balloons drifting up from the ground over the years. Was a little shaken up after the sighting in the air. I saw what I saw, but the more likely answer is that it was a balloon at that distance and elevation. Doesn't change what I thought I saw. Just gives me more to think about.

Wife just got out of the hospital today, so when she is feeling a little better I'll bring that up to her.
 
bret said:
Glad to hear you two are ok, a 20 LB piece of junk coming through the canopy at 200 MPH is not going to be good. there needs to be more federal regulations on this subject. an acquaintance was up visiting family last month and he had a 3,00.00 semi pro quad drone for filming, he also said that he was limited to 400 ft AGL, but then he said watch this, va ROOM! up and out of sight and could not hear it or see it, said he just went 2,000 Ft AGL, and then brought it back down. I told him my concerns about this very subject. Mandatory ADSB on every drone ?
Click to expand...

Regulations, like locks, only keep the honest people honest.
 
Why does everyone assume this was a civilian device? The government agencies - local, state, and most by a wide margin, the federal government operate many of these. I know for a fact someone's been operating Predator or similar vehicles along the Texas gulf coast for 12, 14 years. One intercepted a friend of mine in an RV down toward the Matagorda/Palacious area.
 
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Intercepted?

Low Pass said:
Why does everyone assume this was a civilian device? The government agencies - local, state, and most by a wide margin, the federal government operate many of these. I know for a fact sometimes been operating Predator or similar vehicles along the Texas gulf coast for 12, 14 years. One intercepted a friend of mine in an RV down toward the Matagorda/Palacious area.
Click to expand...

Do they exceed RV speeds?
 
DaveWelch said:
I've often wondered why the drones subjected to a 400' AGL limit are not (apparently) equipped with an altitude limiting function, perhaps GPS based? (in fact, I'm wondering that very thing right now <gr>)
Click to expand...

Many have that capability; I own one of the most popular, a DJI Phantom. The software has 'geofencing' capability that can limit altitude and also flight in areas where drones are restricted. However, this feature can be turned off by the user. There are a few reasons for this-

First, some people may have legitimate and legal reason to operate a drone in these areas - examples include operators with the proper FAA exemptions such as emergency responders or other public agencies.

Second, the database may not always be up to date or accurate, or make sense. In my case, I live within the restricted area around an airport. With the geofencing turned on, I can't even fly the drone in my garage or backyard beneath the trees and inside my fence.

Also, the fact that it is software-based means that it would only be a matter of time (probably just days or even hours) before somebody hacked their way around it making it a moot point. I think drone makers recognize this.

DJI is implementing a system where pilots must authenticate themselves first using a credit card (no charge) before unlocking access to otherwise 'restricted' flight areas. Seems like a reasonable system so that at least there is accountability.

Chris
 
In Canada the RCMP is very responsive to reports of drones flying near aircraft (and laser strikes too, for that matter, but that's a whole other topic). ATC will report to the RCMP if you let them know, and i've read enough drone incident reports to know that the RCMP frequently gets to the scene fast enough to catch the operator.

Here in the BC Lower Mainland, reports of drone activity were coming in about once or twice a week on average back in the spring. There's been a large media campaign since then that's resulted in a lot less reports as the summer has progressed... So the word is getting out that you can't fly near airports and you'd better stay away from aircraft if you don't want to get a visit from the RCMP.
 
Makes sense

YellowJacket RV9 said:
Many have that capability; I own one of the most popular, a DJI Phantom. The software has 'geofencing' capability that can limit altitude and also flight in areas where drones are restricted. However, this feature can be turned off by the user. There are a few reasons for this-

First, some people may have legitimate and legal reason to operate a drone in these areas - examples include operators with the proper FAA exemptions such as emergency responders or other public agencies.

Second, the database may not always be up to date or accurate, or make sense. In my case, I live within the restricted area around an airport. With the geofencing turned on, I can't even fly the drone in my garage or backyard beneath the trees and inside my fence.

Also, the fact that it is software-based means that it would only be a matter of time (probably just days or even hours) before somebody hacked their way around it making it a moot point. I think drone makers recognize this.

DJI is implementing a system where pilots must authenticate themselves first using a credit card (no charge) before unlocking access to otherwise 'restricted' flight areas. Seems like a reasonable system so that at least there is accountability.

Chris
Click to expand...

Thanks Chris,
Good points. I was thinking of the limitations more in terms of the average weekend "joe" with more beer than sense ("watch this!") and a "consumer" model drone.

Fully understand the need for overrides/exemptions for anyone properly licensed and credentialed. I was in the "drone business" for a while back when most legitimate uses were outlawed while the FAA "studied and gathered comments" and the cheap consumer quadcopters didn't exist.

I really like the notion of reasonable and accountable in the regs and capabilities. I'm afraid the "horse has already left the barn" as far as controlling/limiting many of the small drones. As usual, good people will follow the rules and hackers will always be among us ruining the fun and too often endangering others. The good news is that many of the cheap ones don't last long and/or the operators get bored with their new toys.

Glad you can enjoy yours safely!

Dave
 
Bret, I have never noticed where increased federal regulations fixed stupid.
Wish they could though....
 
Weather balloons go up at 12z and 00z, to 60,000 feet.

Had a friend hit one near Detroit with a biplane and have seen them from jets in the flight levels.

6 foot balloon, orange chute, differing sensor packages.
 
BillL said:
Do they exceed RV speeds?
Click to expand...
Let me revise my remark. An unmanned aerial vehicle of unknown type intercepted a buddy of mine in an RV. Approached him, flew along side him, then turned away. As for his credibility, at the time he worked for a large federal agency, and had also been a pilot for that agency for some portion of that time.
 
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