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  #31  
Old 11-24-2010, 07:48 PM
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Geico266 Geico266 is offline
 
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Location: Huskerland, USA
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Good work Marty!

If you have not seen the lock washer video Marty suggests you need to see it before you ever use a split washer again.


***********************



"What we have here is a failure to communicate" ; Coolhand Luke, 1967

While this is a new issue to the RV-12 it is not a new problem. A quick Google search reveals the same documented issues since 1999. The Flight Design CT had the same problem around 2006, before that there was another plane that had the same problem in the late 1990's. In all cases the fix was simple and forth coming from the airframe manufacturer, in this case that should be Van's Aircraft.

This is a classic "it's not my problem" issue. The air frame manufacturer (Vans) claims it's the engine manufacturer's (Rotax) responsibility, and Rotax states in their installation manual (Page 35) it is Vans responsibility. The problem is Rotax cannot and will not speak to every installation of their engine due to so many different applications and mounting hardware around the world. Rotax builds aircraft engines, not airplanes.

However, this is not rocket science. The RV-12 has 4 bolts that secure the engine mount ring using standard hardware, known torque values, and know materials that are vibrating loose under normal operating conditions. The fix should be easy for the sharp, cutting edge engineers at Vans (and I mean that!) so....just do it! We have documented SB's and successful "field tested fixes" of the problem for over a decade from other airframe manufacturers using standard accepted aircraft maintenance procedures, mainly loctite, safety wire, and or cotter pins.

Several phone calls I have made to the largest heavy maintenance Rotax service centers to the smallest certified repair stations, and Flight Design CT service centers have yielded reliable repair info that we can count on, and that I have outlined here and in the first post. It is amazing what can be learned if you put down your pride and pick up the phone and make a few calls to the experts of any given field.
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RV-12 : Built and sold!

Last edited by Geico266 : 11-25-2010 at 07:10 PM.
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  #32  
Old 11-24-2010, 08:08 PM
JBPILOT JBPILOT is offline
 
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Location: Jesup, Iowa
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Default GOOD STATEMENT LARRY !

This has been discouraging for sure.

John Bender
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  #33  
Old 11-24-2010, 08:36 PM
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MartySantic MartySantic is offline
 
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Location: Davenport, IA
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Larry, agree with all.

What bothers me the most is there has been no official notification by Van's to the general population of RV-12 owners. If an RV-12 is flying and is not monitoring this website, he/she could be flying with 2 or less engine mounting capscrews. NOT GOOD! Some have found this to be the case even though, they have meticulously followed all of the RV-12 and ROTAX periodic engine inspection requirements. A simple e-mail would cure this. IS that too much to expect even though we are now experimental?

History has shown it takes NASA months or has ignored the lonely engineer to make a decision. Should not be the case here. We have HIGHER standards.
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Last edited by MartySantic : 11-24-2010 at 08:48 PM.
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  #34  
Old 11-24-2010, 10:13 PM
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Jetguy Jetguy is offline
 
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Location: Texas, Fort Worth
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Unhappy Way to Go Team Larry!

Go team Larry! I think Larry has been pushed to Far. Its all about liability. Yes its sad. Those darn lawyers. This is an example of the current world we live in. Its not a perfect world but it not to bad either. Gentlemen we have a experimental airplane, collect as much data as you can, each owner feel free to choose the fix he feels are appropriate. The mother ship has spoken and this matter is closed for now like it or not! Move forward and enjoy your plane.
Happy Holidays!
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  #35  
Old 11-24-2010, 10:20 PM
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MartySantic MartySantic is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetguy View Post
Go team Larry! I think Larry has been pushed to Far. Its all about liability. Yes its sad. Those darn lawyers. This is an example of the current world we live in. Its not a perfect world but it not to bad either. Gentlemen we have a experimental airplane, collect as much data as you can, each owner feel free to choose the fix he feels are appropriate. The mother ship has spoken and this matter is closed for now like it or not! Move forward and enjoy your plane.
Happy Holidays!
I just cannot or will give up on Van's Aircraft as you suggest. They know what made them successful and do not think they will change their business plan.
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  #36  
Old 11-24-2010, 10:31 PM
vernhendershott vernhendershott is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Spruce Creek, FL
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Hi Larry,

You need to come to Florida and warm up, you are sounding way to much like me, sadly you are 100% right.

We who are flying can take John's advice and fix it the way we feel is best and I guess we will, it does seem better than having the engine fall off.

The real Catch-22 is the ones who are not yet finished, they must do it Van's way and they have to present an aircraft to their FSDO/DAR for final inspection that will have an un-airworthy condition and they have to represent that it is ready for its first flight. I am not sure how I could do that with a straight face.

Mel, perhaps you could advise us as to how we present an aircraft for ELSA certification with this kind of known defect?

Best regards,
Vern
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  #37  
Old 11-24-2010, 10:32 PM
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Jetguy Jetguy is offline
 
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Post Change comes no matter what.

I didn't say give up on them but as history States, Change is inevitable!
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  #38  
Old 11-25-2010, 12:31 AM
Peterk Peterk is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Texas
Posts: 1,375
Default More Words of Wisdom

The good news is you have an experimental aircraft and can fix the problem as you see fit and that let's you sleep at night. Thanks to Tony T we were sent down this potential disaster path. We should remember it was another 12 builder and not Vans that saved our butt. That is the only way to survive. Do not count on Vans to hold your hand...he'll, they didn't even check the bolts on their own SLSA or they wouldn't be showing now how to get through the shroud!

Yes it does risk the possibility that someone will lose an engine in flight because they are counting on Vans to prevent that. Unfortunately they are not required to and simply are not going to. Vans airplanes crash on a regular basis...no more or less than other homebuilts. They have over 7000 experimental aircraft flying...that is what they do ...they sell wonderful kits and help you get them in the air. They charge you for that. Once it's airworthy you can do anything you want to it....to include fixing mistakes. Be thankful this Thanksgiving that people like Tony, Marty, Larry, John and others have your back. I know I am!

Last edited by Peterk : 11-25-2010 at 12:36 AM.
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  #39  
Old 11-25-2010, 01:13 AM
ErichKeane ErichKeane is offline
 
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Location: Hillboro, OR
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Since this is a problem that has happened in the past, what have the other manufacturers done about it? Have some used safety wire, or loctite, or what?
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  #40  
Old 11-25-2010, 02:08 AM
rgmwa rgmwa is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MartySantic View Post
The following links and for that matter, the entire website is very interesting. The information and data clearly demonstrates how ineffective split lockwashers are and in some cases the bolt/joint is better WITHOUT the lockwasher. (Look at the graph).
We'll that explains why I periodically lose one or more of the 4 nuts and bolts that hold the mesh cage mounted on my car trailer in place. I used split washers, assuming they would stop the nuts from coming undone, but they don't. There is obviously enough flex and movement in the trailer and cage system while I'm towing to occasionally work the nuts loose.

I'm still a long way from installing my engine, but the plans show that the ROTAX engine mount bolt assembly is basically no different to my trailer setup.

I'm surprised that VAN's apparently still haven't issued a warning to all affected RV-12 builders since the problem was identified last week, as it's clearly a serious safety concern. As far as I'm concerned, it's not a question of blaming anyone. It's about preventing an accident.
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Last edited by rgmwa : 11-25-2010 at 02:21 AM.
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