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IFR Panel Feedback

S

sritchie

Well Known Member
Hey all,

I'm working with Stein on an IFR panel design for my RV10 and would love feebdback, specifically on

- Any items that you think are essential for IFR that are missing,
- what switches you like having right in front of you, etc for ease of use,

but generally would love thoughts. This design uses the new Aerosport 310 panel with the center throttle quadrant. Here's the panel, then a description of everything after the image:

ozSp8YTh.png


On the Left:
  • - parking brake pull handle (this should move under the console, I think)
  • the square on the left is the built-in oxygen system controller
  • “PDF update” is a software update slot.
  • On the top left is the autopilot control panel (http://www.dynonavionics.com/docs/SkyView_AP_Panel.html) - the buttons aren’t actually going to be sideways. It comes in an actual horizontal version :)
  • Top right is extra knobs for heading and altitude bugs and baro adjustment.
  • Both panels are 10” touchscreens. Go technology!! http://www.dynonavionics.com/docs/SkyView_Displays.html

On the left bottom row:
  • vent on the left,
  • key,
  • push button starter,
  • toggle switches (would love feedback on what switches you’d like to see right in front of you)
  • flap switch

Center:
  • iPad mount up top
  • radio panel
  • IFR GPS
  • Dynon COM radio panel http://www.dynonavionics.com/docs/SkyView_COM.html, for primary comms
  • co-pilot trim lockout - the RV10 has a trim toggle on the stick, so if you flip this switch then your passenger can’t accidentally screw with the trim by leaning on the stick
  • light switches!
  • “APR” is the display for the EFII electronic fuel ignition system.
  • the little dial on the right is a potentiometer for mixture. With EFII you don’t need a mixture level, but this pot allows you to move the preset fuel curve to the rich or lean side.

The circles on the left side of the center console are environmental controls.

Right:
  • Another monster display and MFD update thing
  • panel light toggle, I think?
  • more switches!
  • the two rectangles are for USB charging. (I’ll move these down into the center console.)
  • ELT display
  • another vent
 
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You understand that the right side Dynon is for a right seat pilot - it's too far away for a left seat pilot to really use, especially in imc.
 
Engine Controls?

Are you using standard engine controls or throttle quadrant? You may want to sketch them in to avoid an expensive oops...
 
Speaking as someone who has experienced an EFIS roll inverted in IMC, I think backup instruments are missing. Others may feel differently.
 
BobTurner said:
You understand that the right side Dynon is for a right seat pilot - it's too far away for a left seat pilot to really use, especially in imc.
Click to expand...

Yeah, my wife is a pilot as well, so we wanted to lay out the system so that we could switch primary displays.

Would you recommend subbing in a third screen in the center instead of the iPad mount so that the layout becomes more symmetrical?
 
FORANE said:
Speaking as someone who has experienced an EFIS roll inverted in IMC, I think backup instruments are missing. Others may feel differently.
Click to expand...

Woah, what's the story there? How did that happen? My plan was to rely on the dual AHRS for backup.
 
A few thoughts...

The ELT panel indicator must be in reach, so it needs to be in the center area.

Is the iPad necessary? What will it be used for during flight?

Thinking through actual flying while sitting in the seat may help with your design.
 
Some quick thoughts:
- Co-pilot trim lock out. Good. This also provides a back up trim switch if you break off the trim hat on the pilot stick. Recommend using the same switch (DPDT) to also lock out the flaps from the co-pilot. The RV-10, like all RVs, has a very low flap speed and sticking them out in cruise by accident is not good.
- iPad. Fine but - I find the iPad in the cockpit to be far too unreliable to take up such prime panel space. Keep the iPad in your lap or let your co-pilot hold it.
- I assume from your traditional key and master switch set up you do not have a backup power distribution scheme other than perhaps the Dynon backup batteries. If so, use the now free panel space where the iPad is to install an altimeter and air speed instrument.
- Move the GTN-650 as high in the panel as you can. For the RV-10 this is limited but the center rib, but you can at least move the GTN650 above the audio panel. In practice the GTN-650 feeding the SkyView via the ARINC module means there is little need to rely on the GTN-650 display. You do however still need to plug in the inevitable routing changes from the controllers.
- I'm curious on the wider than needed center section. This moves the right display father to the right - thus less usable to the pilot.


Carl
 
IFR panel

I agree that the copilot display cannot be used very easily by the pilot, especially in actual IFR when you want to minimize head movement

I used the panel that came with the kit and have 2 Dynon 10" displays and 1 7". the 10's are to the left and the copilot gets a 7".

I don't think a single display will have enough room to show PFD, engine info, and an approach plate
 
Chair flying

airmel said:
The ELT panel indicator must be in reach, so it needs to be in the center area...

Thinking through actual flying while sitting in the seat may help with your design.
Click to expand...

Concur w/ Mel; you might want to try "chair flying" from co-pilot position as well. Given current arrangement, autopilot controller, heading, alt bugs, etc. aren't accessible from right side of the cockpit. Move to center?

As you get closer to a final design, you might consider identifying a DAR and DPE/FSDO for sign-off of the airplane (and you, albeit later.) Given FAR fuzziness, personality, experience, and perception will weight an individual's decision to approve. A design change now is easier, and possibly less expensive, than removing, replacing, or installing equipment later.

This also prepares you for the philosophical discussions ("Is it legal? Safe? Smart?")

Good luck!
 
The A/P Panel and Knob panel will be a pain in the neck where they are. You have to reach really high and over your screen to use them. I would put them below the power controls.
 
sritchie said:
Woah, what's the story there? How did that happen? My plan was to rely on the dual AHRS for backup.
Click to expand...

One of the tough questions is, how much backup? Is there a failure mode (like a software bug? Or loss of pitot data?) that can take out both AHRS units? Personally I like a stand-alone system with battery backup, like maybe a GRT mini. That also takes care of the pitot question too.

Where are the fuses or CBs?

Do you have a means to slow the trim speed (at climb speeds it's okay; at cruise it's too sensitive)? Do you have a means to disable the trim in the event of a runaway (stuck switch or relay)?
 
sritchie said:
Yeah, my wife is a pilot as well, so we wanted to lay out the system so that we could switch primary displays.

Would you recommend subbing in a third screen in the center instead of the iPad mount so that the layout becomes more symmetrical?
Click to expand...

That would be my recommendation. A third EFIS will yield more features than an iPad.
 
sritchie said:
Woah, what's the story there? How did that happen? My plan was to rely on the dual AHRS for backup.
Click to expand...


BobTurner said:
One of the tough questions is, how much backup? Is there a failure mode (like a software bug? Or loss of pitot data?) that can take out both AHRS units? Personally I like a stand-alone system with battery backup, like maybe a GRT mini. That also takes care of the pitot question too.
Click to expand...

Agree with Bob. Mine was not a Dynon nor current generation, but I have heard from others who have had dual screen current generation EFIS and both have failed concurrently.
 
FORANE said:
Agree with Bob. Mine was not a Dynon nor current generation, but I have heard from others who have had dual screen current generation EFIS and both have failed concurrently.
Click to expand...

Interesting how our perspective on reliability has changed. Back in the day we blasted off into the clouds with a single, highly unreliable vacuum pump keeping equally unreliable AIs and GSs spinning. Now we have full redundancy (assuming you are not using a 1960 spam can power distribution system) and we worry about what if everything failed. Add stand alone IFR navigators like the GTN-650 to the mix and you have even more redundancy.

Two points:
- look for the common failure modes that will take away your panel and design in risk mitigation. Things like having all your panel running off an avionics master, or for that matter some wiz-bang smart power box that is not single point safe and the reliability of the panel components are so much higher they never enter the risk equation.
- The battery is the most reliable component in your airplane (assuming you have not abused it). A single master solenoid now makes this highly reliable component far less reliable. Having a way to power the panel if your normal power path fails is a simple example of risk mitigation.

For me I have two PC-625 batteries feeding three busses, two busses being left and right panel power, all via independent and alternate paths to the batteries. Both batteries are used for engine start. There are many ways to achieve your reliability objectives so my only recommendation is to first look at the limiting elements in play and work a better design.

Carl
Dual 10" Dynon SkyViews that have never failed (in service for four years), but I still have traditional Altitude and Air Speed instruments on the panels.
 
Put the flap switch so you do not have to move your hand from the throttle to raise or lower them.

Do not mount an iPad in your panel. They only last a few years and when you start to look for a replacement, Apple will have changed the size and connectors.
 
N941WR said:
Do not mount an iPad in your panel. They only last a few years and when you start to look for a replacement, Apple will have changed the size and connectors.
Click to expand...

I have been flying with the same Ipad for 6 years and it still works fine. I too am nearing the date in which I will need to finalize a panel design for my -10. I have been considering putting a tablet next to a G3X Touch PFD (Similar to a side by side efis design). My thinking on this is that the tablet will be used for MFD tasks and it will provide my charts. This panel space could be easily replaced by a second EFIS in the future. I See pro's and con's on both sides, but one thing I am unsure of is - what is the annual cost of jepp subscriptions for the garmins? This may not be a big factor in the decision process, but it is something that I've never found a price on.
 
N941WR said:
Put the flap switch so you do not have to move your hand from the throttle to raise or lower them.

Do not mount an iPad in your panel. They only last a few years and when you start to look for a replacement, Apple will have changed the size and connectors.
Click to expand...

I agree with both of these points. One, I like having the iPad on my lap so I can pick it up and use both hands to do what I want to do on it. Also, even though you may end up keeping the iPad for 6 years, you may update more often. In the last 6 years I have used no less than 5 iPads for flying. Between breaking, upgrading, etc., I switch them around. I use them for a whole lot more than just the plane too, so that is one of the reasons I upgrade. Number 2, the iPad can overhead easily in direct sunlight. Having it in the panel, certain times of day, it may end up being in direct sunlight. Granted, when it overheats you are obviously not in the clouds, but you could be VFR on top and lose it when you need it. I would much sooner go with a 7" screen in the middle section instead of the iPad.
 
airmel said:
The ELT panel indicator must be in reach, so it needs to be in the center area.
Click to expand...

Do you have a ref that directs that? I know what the ACK install manual says, but that's just one potential ELT make/model. Case in point, look at any late model C-172 panel and you find the ELT remote switch way over on the right-hand side of the panel similar to, but higher up than the location the OP showed on his layout.
 
I would consider Avmap EKP V as an economical backup instr. It can do both: EFIS / EADI and GPS nav.

20160119_225815.jpg


7" display, cradle, built in battery

20160119_133944.jpg
 
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EFII Programmer

You're going to want to make room for this. Thinking that you are going to pull it out, connect it, and put it away is not realistic. Plus it's a good way to access tons of specific engine data. I couldn't imagine not having quick access to it.
 
clutch22 said:
I am unsure of is - what is the annual cost of jepp subscriptions for the garmins?
Click to expand...

I use Flitecharts on my 696. ~$500/yr bundled with terrain and AFD, etc.

I've not used Jepp, so I can't opine on the differences in cost or layout. For the 696 there is a one time fee to Jepp, then you buy the subscription.
 
Auburntsts said:
Do you have a ref that directs that? I know what the ACK install manual says, but that's just one potential ELT make/model. Case in point, look at any late model C-172 panel and you find the ELT remote switch way over on the right-hand side of the panel similar to, but higher up than the location the OP showed on his layout.
Click to expand...

The difference may be that in the 172S the inertial seat belts allow the pilot to reach the whole panel, including the ELT switch. I know when I'm strapped in to my -10 I have very limited reach unless I loosen or unbuckle the belts. Getting to the circuit breakers on the right side is tough!

-Marc
 
Plummit said:
The difference may be that in the 172S the inertial seat belts allow the pilot to reach the whole panel, including the ELT switch. I know when I'm strapped in to my -10 I have very limited reach unless I loosen or unbuckle the belts. Getting to the circuit breakers on the right side is tough!

-Marc
Click to expand...

That's fine, and a practical limitation to be sure, but nowhere authoritative in the vein of "thou must" kind of direction. The Cessnas are just one make of production aircraft that do this -- Beechcraft and Mooney do the same thing to varying degrees.

Truth in lending, I mounted mine basically right in front of me above and to the left of my PFD so I'm arguing this point out of principle.
 
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Door not locked lights.

The 10's are supplied with magnetic door pins and red lights illuminated tell you that a door is not secure. You really need those.

Best,
 
pierre smith said:
The 10's are supplied with magnetic door pins and red lights illuminated tell you that a door is not secure. You really need those.

Best,
Click to expand...

You don't need to use separate lights that come with the kit for this function as I'm pretty sure most if not all of the EFIS brands allow for user configurable annunciation of discrete inputs like door switches.
 
Auburntsts said:
Do you have a ref that directs that? I know what the ACK install manual says, but that's just one potential ELT make/model. Case in point, look at any late model C-172 panel and you find the ELT remote switch way over on the right-hand side of the panel similar to, but higher up than the location the OP showed on his layout.
Click to expand...

I could not find a reference, so I stand corrected.
 
ditch the 650 and get a 750 with remote GMA35 audio panel

I have a 650 and i never use the darn thing, the 750 is much much better
 
My 2 cents

I have really enjoyed working with Stein on our 10 panel. Mike Hilgar did a fantastic job for me. Just gave them the Ok to cut the panel out yesterday. Our panel is all Garmin. 2- G3X touch, GTN 750, GMC307 auto pilot, gam 240audio panel, dual ADHARS, GNC 255A NAV/COM and more. Aerosport symmetrical panel.

We did add a Guardian CO monitor model #353-201P that will display on the PFD. $349. It is a remote mount so as not to take up panel space. Like some said, keep the ELT close by....

We are also going with "vertical power" system also
 
My 2c...

1. If you want to use the co-pilot screen, you will want to "cant" it so you have a more direct view. In my case, it is a single piece of Al with 2 bends and a few nutplates. Made all the difference in the world using it as my MFD.

2. There are knobs on the left of the center console. Can't read the labels. However, personally, I would not want them there. I already want all the legroom i can get and there is possible interfere with your knees and your leg.

3. My ipad is mounted on the copilot windshield with a suction cup. On most any airplane, i can mount the ipad in that location, which is why i put it there for consistency.

4. A 750 would definitely be a very nice upgrade over the 650/tablet combo.
 
Perhaps you install three 10" Dynon's in the aerosport 310 panel. Imagine if there was an app that could "project"or mirror the ipad screen interactively via bluetooth, to include all gesture capabilities, ie pinch, move, point etc to a Dynon screen. That way the ipad could sit comfortably in the seat-back pouch wirelessly connected to the center 10" Dynon screen. In a perfect world your ipad could be accessed at the push of a button to any one of the three efis displays.

You want some foreflight info, push ipad data to the center screen. The wife wants to watch a movie or fumble through a text (or more realistically check out her facebook status) push ipad data to the far right screen. Angry birds at 10,000' on a dynon....hmmmm

Seems a bit far fetched, but all it takes is one person to come up with the app. Could be tomorrow, then your stuck with an ipad at your center console.

Side note...took the advice of previous poster to sit in my plane and pretend fly. My wife just walked into garage and laughed at me, then disappeared only to fetch my daughter to come out and laugh at me as well. Warmer in here anyway. Good night, good luck!
 
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