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ADS-B equipment choices

T

tagold

Member
I am looking into potential ADS-B out solutions for my RV-10.

I currently have the following equipment:

Advanced 3500 (non S) EFIS and engine monitor
Aera 560
Garmin GTX 330 transponder (non-ES)
Stratux ADS-B In
Foreflight on an iPad

At some point I do plan on installing a GTN650, so I don?t want and ADS-B solution that I will have to upgrade again when I install this.

What are some options to become ADS-B out compliant with this equipment? I'm not really ready to upgrade the EFIS and I?m hoping to not have a boat anchor in the 330 since it was pretty expensive.

Ideally I would like to not have the Statux on the glareshield, but the Garmin 345 seems way to expensive just to have an all in one box.

I have thought of the following options:
1. Install a GDL 82 with the current setup
2. Install the Uavionix echoUAT with the SkyFYX and remove the Stratux.
3. Upgrade the 330 to a 330ES and get a GPS 20A with the current setup.
4. Go ahead and get the GTN650 and upgrade the 330 to a 330ES and keep the Stratux.
5. Go ahead and get the GTN650, keep the 330 as-is and install the Uavionix echoUAT and remove the Stratux.

What other options are out there?

Any thoughts on the path to compliance would be appreciated.
 
Two options will work with the 330 as is:

* UAvionix Skybeacon (or Tailbeacon)
* Garmin GDL82

Both are 978 type ADS-B Out solutions. If you equip with the 650, it can be the GPS source for either one.

Upgrading the 330 to ES and using it with the 650 is the least intrusive (since you're getting the 650 anyway) and probably will cost about the same as the two solutions above.

You'll still need the Stratux for IN for all the above.
 
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Garmin 330 and GDL82

A Garmin 330 as installed will not work with a GDL82 as the 330 is
Mode S. Had the same problem and installed a Garmin 327 transponder.
John
 
A point to consider. Upgrading the 330 to a 330ES will give you 1090 out (no restrictions as where you can fly) instead of 978 UAT (with some restrictions as to where you can fly)
 
Yep. The GDL 82 requires Mode C, and won't support Mode S. However, the Uavionix UAT products will support Mode S. So the Echo, Skybeacon or Tailbeacon would be a good choice. I prefer 978 UAT with anonymous mode (only works when squawking VFR 1200). I have the Echo in my RV-3 and it works great. If you do spring for a TSO'd WAAS GPS navigator then a GDL-82 with a GTX 327 would do the trick. If you want to stick with the GTX 330 then I think the Echo would be the ticket.

Jim
 
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Another option is to upgrade to a GTX335 with a gps. These are just below $3K and it includes the antenna. That?s what I did.
 
Uavionix echouat skyfx will give you traffic and weather on your AFS EFIS screen plus foreflight on your device. It?s basically the only unit that provides traffic and weather to the AFS screens. I have that system and it works great.

I?m currently upgrading to a gtn 650 gtx 345 for traffic and weather on the 650, Garmin aera 660 and Garmin Pilot. I?ll leave the uavionix echouat in the receive only mode so I can keep traffic and weather on my AFS 4500. Never thought about it but I guess I can run 1090es and uat out at the same time according to the FAA.
 
wnplt said:
Never thought about it but I guess I can run 1090es and uat out at the same time according to the FAA.
Click to expand...



The FAA per Advisory Circular AC 20-165A states with respect to out transmit: “We recommend that you do not install both 1090ES and UAT (978) ADS-B capability on the same aircraft."

So for dual frequencies, for out, "No". Only one frequency OR the other.

With respect to dual frequency in, "Yes".

Jim
 
moosepileit said:
Skybeacon is not anonymous unless actively squawking 1200 with active replies coming off your transponder.
Click to expand...

No but echouat is anonymous as long as there is a serial connection to your transponder and it can confirm 1200 squawk before GPS signal acquisition.

Note: I have not tested this, but it's what uavionix said, and it makes sense.
 
Stratus option

You could sell the 330 and replace it with a Stratus ESG (or ES if you add the 650 as a position source). A Stratus 3i could replace your Stratux and be installed out of sight/off the glare screen). An ESG+Stratus3i “kit” is about $3k (less any proceeds from the sale of the 330 and Stratux). This provides 1090ES out and 978 in. I believe the traffic and weather into the Stratus 3i can be displayed on your 3500 (but I don’t have an Advanced screen, so don’t just take my word for it). This solution also uses a single external antenna for in and out.

Peter
 
A very good, least expensive solution

based on the info you initially provided -- is the uAvionix approach -- either the Echo (which I use with my AFS 5600T and iFly740 and iPad) or the wing-tip/tail light version. This approach uses your current transponder, and has its own GPS position source. The Echo will require a couple of antennas (GPS/UAT) whereas the wingtip/tail light version will not.

Ron
 
Since you mentioned the 650 ($$$) I can only presume that the long term goal is to have an IFR capable airplane. If this is correct, then stop. As you are or will discover, one choice affects another. (Is my ifr gps choice compatible with my ADSB-out box? Will my ADSB-in choice display on my EFIS? Do I need an all-in-one box like a 650, or is a separate nav-com plus the new gps 175 a better choice? Or do I need a nav? A back up attitude source?.....etc). If you want ifr capability integrate that now, with the adsb decision. Make the whole panel do what you want. If you just concentrate on adsb, you may be re-doing things again to get ifr capability.
 
Thank you everyone for the replies.

Bob. Yes, the goal is to have an IFR capable plane. What you are explaining is why I was asking the question. I have a backup attitude source and an SL-30. I only need to have an IFR GPS (and backup NAV/COM) to be well equipped. I wired in a tray for a 430W but don't have a unit to put in it. Since Garmin stopped supporting the 430W, it doesn't seem like a wise move in the long run to get a used 430W. Hence the reference to the GTN 650.

I already have a few pieces of orphaned equipment. I would like to avoid orphaned equipment as much as possible (if that is even possible these days with new tech).:)
 
tagold said:
Since Garmin stopped supporting the 430W, it doesn't seem like a wise move in the long run to get a used 430W. Hence the reference to the GTN 650.
Click to expand...

You can slide an Avidyne IFD-440 in the 430W tray and be set.
 
Since you already have one VOR/ILS, you can save $$$ by getting one gps 175 (gps only) and one #2 com, together cheaper than a 650.
 
akschu said:
No but echouat is anonymous as long as there is a serial connection to your transponder and it can confirm 1200 squawk before GPS signal acquisition.

Note: I have not tested this, but it's what uavionix said, and it makes sense.
Click to expand...

I have tested the skybeacon, I get interrogations at my hangar. If you see your 1200 squawk on the uAvionix monitor, only then can you be anonymous, with a 60 second timeout once losing 1200, unless it sees non-1200, then it reinserts your actual ICAO and ID, as it should.
 
wnplt said:
Uavionix echouat skyfx will give you traffic and weather on your AFS EFIS screen plus foreflight on your device. It?s basically the only unit that provides traffic and weather to the AFS screens. I have that system and it works great.

I?m currently upgrading to a gtn 650 gtx 345 for traffic and weather on the 650, Garmin aera 660 and Garmin Pilot. I?ll leave the uavionix echouat in the receive only mode so I can keep traffic and weather on my AFS 4500. Never thought about it but I guess I can run 1090es and uat out at the same time according to the FAA.
Click to expand...
Which AFS system do you have?
 
moosepileit said:
I have tested the skybeacon, I get interrogations at my hangar. If you see your 1200 squawk on the uAvionix monitor, only then can you be anonymous, with a 60 second timeout once losing 1200, unless it sees non-1200, then it reinserts your actual ICAO and ID, as it should.
Click to expand...

EchoUAT != Skybeacon

Serial connection to Transponder != listening to interrogations
 
Kyle Boatright said:
Do you mind adding a few more words to explain what you're getting at?
Click to expand...

Sure.

Uavionix has two products, the sky beacon and the echoUAT.

The sky beacon listens on 1090mhz as the transponder is interrogated to determine the squawk code and pressure altitude. It does that to eliminate wires and make the install easier, but it cannot go into anonymous mode until it sees the 1200 squawk. Because of the delay in seeing this, it’s not in anonymous mode for the first minute or so, which really means not anonymous at all, since it’s easy to relate the true ICAO with the new anonymous one.

Moose pilot was pointing this out.

I was responding that the second product, echoUAT, has a wire to the serial port on the transponder where it can discover the squawk code immediately, and thus be in anonymous mode before GPS lock. In other words, true anonymous mode.

The echoUAT also has WiFi so it will work like the sky beacon with an iPad, but when you upgrade your EFIS you are ready to push ads-b to it.

Hope that helps
 
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small difference

Just a quick clarification. The Skybeacon does not listen on 1090 mhz. It is resolving altitude and squawk code from the DC buss voltage. Garmin has claimed in their patent infringement suit that they (uAvionix) copy Garmin's off the air scheme. It is now working through the courts. (slowly, I expect)
I had a customer trying to eliminate strobe noise and I suggested a toroid in the power line to the Skybeacon. The tech support guys reminded me that the information on the DC voltage buss is critical to the way Skybeacon works. The toroid would have blocked that information.
Now, how they resolve a "grey" code from DC voltage.... is quite an interesting mystery to me. And they aren't saying...
Cheers.
 
flightlogic said:
Just a quick clarification. The Skybeacon does not listen on 1090 mhz. It is resolving altitude and squawk code from the DC buss voltage. Garmin has claimed in their patent infringement suit that they (uAvionix) copy Garmin's off the air scheme. It is now working through the courts. (slowly, I expect)
I had a customer trying to eliminate strobe noise and I suggested a toroid in the power line to the Skybeacon. The tech support guys reminded me that the information on the DC voltage buss is critical to the way Skybeacon works. The toroid would have blocked that information.
Now, how they resolve a "grey" code from DC voltage.... is quite an interesting mystery to me. And they aren't saying...
Cheers.
Click to expand...

Eh, I can't see how they could get that information over the DC line through the input filtering of the transponder. It's more likely they are using the DC line as an antenna and catching the pulsing bleeding onto it like an antenna.

Regardless of how they do it, the echoUAT is the better choice here:

1. It can be wired with a serial port interface to get the squawk code which is more reliable than over the wire or snooping.

2. It goes into anonymous mode immediately if it can discover the transponder code over serial.

3. If/When the OP upgrades their EFIS, we already have a box that can provide ads-b information to it.

schu
 
I know when you put a scope on a DC line, there is much more there than one would expect. A spectrum analyzer is often used to find interfering signals both in the air and on the buss.
I agree with a serial connection. My Echo unit is connected to my Sandia transponder and always knows altitude and code. And the Sandia encoder never needs calibration, as it is quite a stable digital design.
My Echo also never needs to revert to GPS altitude when the transponder is quiet... which is not an uncommon situation where I fly in the mountain west. Radar coverage is pretty good, but not complete.
I was heavily involved in Capstone phase II in Alaska and heard many concerns from air taxi operators about Big Brother and lack of trust. Most of that noise has faded away these days. The FAA pretty much lived up to their promise that ADS-B was not going to become an enforcement technology.
I suspect the anonymous threads and content will subside here in the lower 48 before long as well. I have made crummy predictions though... in the past.
Cheers.
 
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