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CFI question ?

Larry DeCamp

Well Known Member
Need to decide what controls to install in rear seat for a biennial in my RV4 project. Will a CFI be comfortable with throttle and rudder pedals. I rent a 172 or Decathalon since I am flying a -3 now. Would be nice to use my -4 in the future . Your perspective would be appreciated.
 
FAR 91.109 requires ?fully functional dual controls?. I require the same to give a flight review.
 
Depends on the CFI. Given the limited visibility in the back of the RV-4, my guess is that probably few would want to do that. I gave aerobatic dual from the back of a Decathlon, but I did the takeoffs and landings, not the student.

If you get your flight reviews in a different airplane with different handling characteristics and sight pictures, you may learn unexpected things. It's also the case that if you fly the same plane all the time, you'll start doing things "open loop" and putting in control inputs that you know from experience are correct, rather than feeling what the airplane is telling you.

Ed
 
RV4 rear controls for CFI

I am an RV4 builder and a CFI with 3000 hrs instructor time. I have instructed from the rear seat of Decathalons, Pitts, and others. I put a friend in the front of my RV4 and did several take offs and landings. The lack of brakes, limited rudder pedal travel, and poor visibility convinced me not to attempt instruction from the rear seat in my airplane. The lack of brakes and full rudder probably makes it illegal anyway.
 
Thanks Dwight

Case closed. The -4 will get a removable rear stick (with bolt of course ), for the grand children to learn what makes a REAL Airplane turn, LOL.
 
OK, I just read FAR Part 61, Section 56 which covers Flight Reviews.

As I suspected, there is no requirement for the CFI to even be in the plane.

This matches what a friend with an RV3 used to do. He would take off and the instructor would stand on the ground with a handheld radio and tell the pilot what he wanted the pilot to do. (Mostly aerobatic maneuvers, it was always a great show!)

That said, good luck finding a CFI who will work with you.
 
One more thought -- some folks build their planes for left seat PIC, with throttle etc on the left sidewall. That might be interesting to give dual in... :)
 
Sure!

Depends on the instructor and the pilot receiving instruction. I'm height challenged and comfortable flying the -4 or -8 from the rear cockpit and will give instruction from the trunk if the airplane is equipped with dual controls. I'm also comfortable instructing on the wing (i.e., flying in the wing position with the student in their own airplane); assuming the pilot is appropriately qualified to operate solo.
 
Last year I signed a great guy off for his initial instrument from the back seat of his -8. I had a stick and a push to talk.

I had to make sure I was very very comfortable with my friend as I was basically a passenger.

Finding a DPE was another victory.

He passed no problem.

I would not do that again for just anybody.
 
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It sounds like the crux of the matter in the article is dual brakes. It also sounds like the interpretations are in regards to CFI checkrides, where the applicant needs two sets of controls for all "areas of operation" ie teaching short field takeoffs from the other seat requiring brakes.

I don't think there was a legal problem with completing and signing off my IFR friend in his 8 because brakes / rudder pedals are never required for the areas of operation on an IFR test. The DPE agreed and conducted the evaluation.

Now a private? That is a different matter.

My current opinion (subject to change of course as I learn more..):

In regards to a Flight Review, I think that if the RV owner is still current and can act as PIC during her / his flight review, than yes a CFI could ride along in the back without rudder and brakes to evaluate. Now finding a CFI who wants to do that may be a different matter.

If the owner is not current, than the CFI is the PIC and I would think you need another plane.

I also just read 91.109 and it appears it is written for Bonanza folks with throw over yokes. I'll call AOPA legal later today and report back what I find out.
 
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Another real world story:

At 52F we have a new RV-4 owner. One insurance company wanted him to log 10 takeoff and landings in tail wheel RVs before the policy became effective. So we could use his plane, but the policy wouldn't be covered during the required 10 laps in the pattern.

Another insurance company wanted an RV checkout from an authorized CFI.

His very nice 4 does not have rudder pedals or brakes.

I opted to use my 6 for his insurance sign off. I suppose a CFI could again ride along, evaluate, and give the thumbs up, but I'm not sure who might want to.

As a new RV owner myself, I am sad to see all the hoops people have to go through just to enjoy their airplane. I just read a great article about the depleting CFI pool and I have no doubt that as people age, there will be even less available instructors to help EAB owner/pilots with checkouts, insurance requirements, and flight reviews.
 
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