Hinge bracket rivet fail

Hi everyone,

I can't seem to find any civilized way to set the inner rivet on my rudder hinge brackets. I've tried my pneumatic squeezer but the rivet is so close to the bracket that the yoke rubs on it and causes the squeezer to twist sideways. So then I got out a bucking bar which "kind of" worked but I had to hold it so close to the bracket that it beat the living heck out it (see pic). I had to drill the rivet out twice now, and for the life of me I can't figure out how other guys seem to do these hinge brackets so cleanly.

Would I be better off using a hand squeezer? Maybe these have narrower yokes that will fit in tight places better. If so, I would buy one. Or, would it be better to have the manufactured head on the bracket side and buck the other side (most that I have seen are not done this way though).

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks!



T

Here are some hints. Use them as you may, as I'm no expert, but I've been through your stage of the build.
1. Duct tape. Keep it around when ever riveting. Tape up any potential victims around the rivet if you are a little rusty with the rivet control. Saves having to make secondary repairs later. Two layers if you really think the chances are high.
2. Be prepared to grind down yokes to make things fit. I know it hurts to have to do this (I had to grind down a #8 dimple die today just to set two awkward dimples and it near brought a tear to my eye).
3. Ditch the pneumatic squeezer for tough to reach rivets. Whilst the pneumatic may be good for large numbers of serial riveting, you really need the touch and adjustability when dealing with these types of rivets.
4. Get a good tungsten bucking bar if you don't already have one. You'll find these things set such good rivets and are so controllable compared to a steel one that you'll end up reaching for that before you even go for your squeezer. Whilst you are at it, get yourself a 12" rivet driver for your gun. You'll be amazed how often you'll end up using it, as it is far more controllable than the double offset driver.
Good luck and keep at it. I hope this helps.
Tom.

control said:

.
Using the Pneumatic squeezer should also work if you can position it so that the fixed side of the yoke are on the manufactured head, then nothing that is against the parts should move during the squeezing.

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This. Sometimes you need to reverse the geometry of yoke to eliminate interference - the rivet will set just fine regardless of what side of the rivet the squeezer's ram is placed against. Also what yoke are you using? A longeron yoke is probably the best for those rivets regardless of whether the squeezer is pneumatic or a hand operated.

Another tip is make sure to clamp the main part being riveted (the spar in this case) so that it doesn't move during riveting (a padded vice works well in many cases). And while I did grind down some bucking bars and a dimple die or 2, I didn't have to grind down any of my yokes. YMMV...

I had to buck these ones with my tungsten. I oriented the rivets as you did yours. Make sure your bucking bar is wrapped with tape (I use painters tape as it doesn't leave residue). You may be able to get the squeezer in there with longeron yolk (if you don't have one stop everything and buy one, it is worth it's weight in gold and you WILL need one eventually). If it doesn't quite make it always try and flip the squeezer so that the ram is forming the shop head or vice versa (great creative with squeezer setups).

Thanks everyone for you replies!

Control:
Thanks for the help. I don't have a C-frame, I use a DRDT. But if I had a C-frame wouldn't that mean I would have to back rivet these? Not sure how to back rivet with universal head rivets. I know it shouldn't matter which side of the squeezer is on the manufactured head but for some reason I find it easier if the ram forms the shop head instead of the fixed side. I didn't fully understand your point about nothing that is against the parts should move during the squeezing but this sounds very interesting. Maybe that's why we both had better luck forming the shop head with the ram side of the squeezer.

tgmillso:
Thanks a lot for those tips! Duct take is an excellent idea and I will order a tungsten bucking bar today. Everyone I know who has a tungsten bar simply will not go back to a steel bar after using tungsten. Which size bar did you get? Also, I was not able to find a 12" 1/8th set but I found a 10" and will get one. I saw those double offset drivers and they looks like they'd be a little dicey to use. I am curious to know which side of your hinge did you put the manufactured head on?

Auburntsts:
Thanks for the info. I did try to reverse the geometry of the yoke but they put that hole just too darn close to the bracket. I am using a longeron yoke but because of the proximity to the hinge bracket it only contacts the rivet on the edge and twists the squeezer off. I will also try your advice to clamp the part down. BTW, I also curious to know which side of your part did you put the manufactured head on?

Jereme:
Thanks for that info. Yes, I do have a longeron yoke and agree they are great but its just too wide to get to the inner rivet on the hinge bracket. I can catch the corner of it but cant get it on center.. Do you think a hand squeezer might be narrower? All the guys at my EAA chapter claim a hand squeezer is a "must have" and the pneumatic squeezer is no substitute.

I agree on the longeron yoke. It works in many of those areas that the regular yokes can't reach. Indispensable even if you have a Quick Build.

Roberta

FL-flyer said:

Thanks everyone for you replies!

Jereme:
Thanks for that info. Yes, I do have a longeron yoke and agree they are great but its just too wide to get to the inner rivet on the hinge bracket. I can catch the corner of it but cant get it on center.. Do you think a hand squeezer might be narrower? All the guys at my EAA chapter claim a hand squeezer is a "must have" and the pneumatic squeezer is no substitute.

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I'm glad you just asked this as I forgot about my most recent purchase. I purchased another hand squeezer for one rivet on the left elevator. Yup you heard right, one rivet. However, I was also very dissatisfied with my old hand squeezer. The link below is the one I bought.

http://www.cleavelandtool.com/AVERY-HAND-RIVET-SQUEEZER-HANDLE-ONLY/productinfo/9400/#.WTlTiZIrJxA

This is one of the best purchases I have made. It is a little pricey for what it is but I love how light it is and the biggest thing... it's INTERCHANGABLE with the pneumatic yolks. The reason I bought it for that one rivet is mentioned on Mike Bullocs blog here:

http://www.rvplane.com/?categoryid=2&dayid=112 (5TH PICTURE DOWN)

This hand squeezer simply gets in tighter spots than my last one. I highly recommend it. The main squeeze Cleaveland sells looks great too and many people swear by it but I just didn't like the cost and squeezing most rivets by hand is easy.

In summary the squeezer that I purchased I believe may be able to get at this rivet but my horizontal stab is closed up already so I can't check. A hand squeezer is a very nice thing to have and I highly recommend getting one simply because the pneumatic gets heavy on long runs and it is too bulky to get at everything you want to squeeze.

FL-flyer said:

Thanks everyone for you replies!

Auburntsts:
Thanks for the info. I did try to reverse the geometry of the yoke but they put that hole just too darn close to the bracket. I am using a longeron yoke but because of the proximity to the hinge bracket it only contacts the rivet on the edge and twists the squeezer off. I will also try your advice to clamp the part down. BTW, I also curious to know which side of your part did you put the manufactured head on?

Click to expand...

Same as you did -- shop head on the bracket. But unless specified in the plans you can reverse the direction of the rivet if it makes it easier to set it. It's been awhile but I'm pretty sure I squeezed those particular rivets with my Main Squeeze vs my pneumatic-- ram on the manufactured head, fixed side of the yoke on the shop head but it's possible I bucked those rivets too -- my build log doesn't say how I did it exactly.

Back riveting

For the future, you can back rivet universal head rivets quite easily.
Basically, you need a solid backing plate and a bar or two. I use my back riveting plate, back rivet bar (the big round one) and tungsten. Lay the plate down then place the round bar flat face up then the tungsten on top. It has a nice square shape. Build a platform for the part out of blocks so the shop head side is down, rivet shank perpendicular to the face of the bar and the shop head side of the part flush to the bar. Now add a layer of thin foam to raise the rivet shank just above the face of the bar. Now you can drive from the top and form a perfect shop head. It takes less time to set up than to write this. You can read the Kitplanes tip in my blog.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B7hyZ-sKQmtrU3JKbDQwMW1xc2M

I hand squeezed mine. Tough buggers for sure
My guess vans would want you to leave those as is.

Thanks a lot everyone for your excellent feedback and suggestions! I really appreciate it!

I used a hand squeezer on the entire plane, have you modified the yokes, I ground mine to match the Die at the edge.