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How important was the existence of VAF in your decision to build an RV.

How important was the existence of VAF in your decision to build an RV.

  • It was not a factor.

    Votes: 95 44.0%
  • It was a factor.

    Votes: 26 12.0%
  • It was a significant factor.

    Votes: 84 38.9%
  • It was the most important factor.

    Votes: 11 5.1%

  • Total voters
    216
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Captain Avgas

Well Known Member
THIS POLL IS ONLY OPEN TO BUILDERS WHO COMMENCED CONSTRUCTION AFTER JANUARY 2005

THIS POLL IS ONLY OPEN TO BUILDERS WHO COMMENCED CONSTRUCTION AFTER JANUARY 2005

THIS POLL IS ONLY OPEN TO BUILDERS WHO COMMENCED CONSTRUCTION AFTER JANUARY 2005

THIS POLL IS ONLY OPEN TO BUILDERS WHO COMMENCED CONSTRUCTION AFTER JANUARY 2005

This poll has been established to gauge the importance that builders placed on the existence of VansAirforce as a resource when they opted to build their RV.

I set up a similar poll several days ago but I rushed into it and it was logically flawed and I could not amend it. So I deleted that poll.

The problem with the first poll is that I opened it up to both builders and buyers. But it was obvious in hindsight that buyers of completed RVs do not have the same need for technical resources as builders.

So this poll is for BUILDERS ONLY. Additionally it is only for builders who COMMENCED CONSTRUCTION AFTER JANUARY 2005 because that is the date of the inauguration of VansAirforce.net as a web based forum (its current format). It is obviously not relevant to be voting on the influence of VAF forum in the period before it existed !!!

Please vote if you qualify. I am hoping to get a large number of voters so that the outcome can be seen to have substance.

In the end these statistics will probably be of considerable interest to a number of parties, including Vans Aircraft.
 
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Factor?

I started building before Doug started this web site, yahoo groups too.


Doug?s web site has been a major part of my building Van?s Kits and the Flying Part Too! Flying with and meeting up with other RV people is the best. The calendar and casual post about lunch meetings are very important
 
Slightly different twist. VAF is one of the reasons I chose to build something other than an RV. On balance, VAF is also one of the reasons why I convinced myself I could build rather than buy a flying airplane. VAF is a terrific resource.
 
I voted "not a factor" due to the fact I had already started the RV 10 prior to discovering VAF.

However, VAF saved me many $$$$ and months if not years of build time.
 
Yes, many of us are in the same boat, MIke, as having been part of building long before Doug's site, and even the Internet. :)

There's no doubt as to the contribution of this site, though, for both new builders, repeat builders, and buyers of AB aircraft. For some of us, it is a place where it is now our turn to contribute, as some did for us a long time ago. (no, they didn't use smoke signals and drums. :))

It is rare that I find someone who is building and is NOT aware of this site. The area that does "concern" me is that the 2nd and 3rd owner segment of AB aircraft tend to be unaware of it, as well as other sources of information.

I think everyone who posts an airplane for sale on this website should consider telling the new buyer about it and even making a donation and signing them up, or something like that. No, Doug didn't pay me to say that! :)

There's a really good chance that a majority of these 10K RV's now flying will be owned by a non-builder in the not-too-distant future, unless we discover the Fountain of Youth.

Vic
 
It was not a factor because I started the -6A in 1985 before the list started (I think). Doug, good place for a short history.

Is was a major influence on my -10. I spent hours researching various mods like door seals, window glue, interior finishes etc. You learn a lot of details and get good with the search engine and end up with a better ship. If you asked how important is the list to my current or last RV project I bet the answer would be about 99% positive!

What I miss is the photo situation, lots of good info is being lost.
 
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Key word "commencing" to build

VAF was around but unknown to me at the commencement of my decision to build, or build an RV. However, since I discovered VAF and started following ... it's immensely contributed to successful completion of my first RV.

Some fellow ("Sharpie") was around the net in my early days of building and it was his photos and descriptions that helped me in the beginning. Another contributor was the development of KitLog and the information that is posted by builders. (There were only a few RV-6/6A's in the beginning but now 28 "builders" of those models). Related information is avail on all models, and many other brands but the specifics are sometimes important.

VAF focus is IMHO a community of folks wandering in and out of the virtual shop, contributing and sharing common interests mainly well centered on RV's and closely mixed subjects. It's well moderated and timely news and discussions. With forays into secondary worlds of aviation subjects which supplement the core. VAF is the infrastructure of the RV followers.
 
For me it played a very large part. Reading through the archives prior to purchasing my RV14 kit in Feb 2014 it provided inspiration and built excitement on what could be accomplished. It created a sense of community that I would have support as a first time builder. That and the visit to the Factory cemented the decision. (don’t let Darryl take your wife flying, cost me 100k!)

Over the past several years I have researched most aspects of my build and I still read it on a daily basis. I have met some very interesting people and made a few good friends in the process so far.

DR does a great job with running the site.

Back to building ...... Jim
 
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Extensively used but not a decision factor

My decision to build an RV was totally driven by Dan Checkoway's build/fly web site back in the day. I binge read his entire site and it lit the RV build fire under me.
That said, I made extensive use of Van's Air Force during my 7 year build even though I didn't really discover it until almost a year in.

EDIT: I was qualified to take the poll - got the bug in 2006, started the build in 2007, first flight in 2014.
 
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Initially during the 2 years that I spent trying to decide if/what to build two things were instrumental, the first was looking at and speaking with the builder of an RV 6 who said ?whatever you build make sure it is aluminum?, that led to research into Vans aircraft and seeing the factory support evidenced by what the builders were saying and seeing the amount of information that was being shared I decided to do it. As a first time builder of an RV 3 and initially not having other builders close by for advice this was the go to place to help figure stuff out. The RV3 kit and plans is basic but entirely adequate, (I think) however there are times when it really helps and reassures to read a method or see a pic of the very part that you are working on. So thanks to Doug and also an enormous thanks to all the builders of 3?s 4?s and early RV6 who have generously put up their build logs and photos, Paul Dye and Louise, Rob Holmes, Randy Lervold, John Nystrom, Dave Paule among many others from whom I have gleaned and saved pics of pretty much every part of an RV3 build. As my project approaches the 90% / 90% and I progress through panel and fwf no doubt there will be more searching of the forums. Thanks again Doug Reeves for a priceless resource.
Russell
 
Exactly what Dan wrote except for a 3 year build.

EDIT: I was qualified to take the poll - got the bug in 2006, started the build in 2007, first flight in 2010.
 
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This site is a big deal

Sellers should definitely consider promoting this site to potential buyers. I think it's capable of adding to the sales value of your aircraft.

I'm a third owner, and this site was incredibly useful when searching for and buying my used RV. But it's been even more useful when it comes to maintaining that RV.

I've searched for and bought a used homebuilt once before, and in my experience the range of expertise and info here compares very very favorably to what I've seen for other homebuilts.

There's no doubt as to the contribution of this site, though, for both new builders, repeat builders, and buyers of AB aircraft.
* * *
It is rare that I find someone who is building and is NOT aware of this site. The area that does "concern" me is that the 2nd and 3rd owner segment of AB aircraft tend to be unaware of it, as well as other sources of information.

Vic
 
Exactly what Dan wrote except for a 3 year build.

I too voted "not a factor" since I started before VAF, but Dan Checkoway was a major factor on my decision. VAF expanded on it.

Maybe, there should be another option in the poll, "not a factor, started build before VAF"
 
Definitely a factor for me..

..I wanted to build an experimental plane, but one of the key reasons why I chose a Vans RV-10 for my mission (instead of a Bearhawk or Velocity) was because of the incredibly large community of support and instantaneous access to it through this site. Thanks Doug!
 
I didn't know it existed when I started my project but was introduced to it by a friend soon after, THANK GOD!!! My project would have never turned out as good or complete as it did without this site. I owe a lot to Doug and family for putting up with us.
 
Minority opinion

I was a dyed in the wool certified tube and fabric guy for 30 years and considered home builts with skepticism. I started seeing fast RV?s with heaters at the $100 hamburger gathering and found VAF. The quality of the dialogue and knowledge was obvious and I was sold. My two RV?s are directly a result of VAF Forum.
 
Please read Post no 1 before voting.

I too voted "not a factor" since I started before VAF, but Dan Checkoway was a major factor on my decision. VAF expanded on it.

Maybe, there should be another option in the poll, "not a factor, started build before VAF"

The problem I have is that builders are not reading my Post no. 1 regarding voting qualifications. It says that the poll is not open to builders who commenced construction before January 2005.

This condition was specifically to avoid the problem of builders voting "It was not a factor" simply because they started building before VansAirforce.net came into existence.

It is obvious that VAF could not have exerted any influence before it even existed.

Anyway, you are right. I should have known that some voters would vote without reading the first post. Silly me. As you suggested I should have had the poll option: "Not a factor, started build before VAF".

At any rate I've modified Post no. 1 to further highlight the fact that the poll is not open to builders who commenced construction before January 2005.
 
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Bob, some are repeat builders, having built both BEFORE and AFTER this site came into existence. :)

Vic
 
Bob, when I clicked the poll on, did not see

THIS POLL IS ONLY OPEN TO BUILDERS WHO COMMENCED CONSTRUCTION AFTER JANUARY 2005

The data is not accurate.
 
Modifying the first post should help, but people still read top to bottom. The poll still occurs above the instruction.
 
Definitely! I read this forum for almost a year before I decided I want to build and Have been trying to learn as much as possible on here every since. The help and knowledge people are willing to share here is amazing. I try to give a little bit back by sharing my build experience.
 
It did not exist when I started construction. The Matronics RV list was the top internet Go to Source at the time. VAF has certainly been a great help though since.
 
Bob, some are repeat builders, having built both BEFORE and AFTER this site came into existence. :)

Vic

Vic thanks for your constructive comment. Certainly this poll has proven to be trickier than I first imagined. Obviously if builders started building before VansAirforce existed then it is not relevant for them to vote because one cannot determine the influence of VAF if it did not exist at the time. But I think it is relevant for builders to vote if they are repeat builders and started their repeat build after the formation of VAF. In the latter case the resources of VAF, if not the camaraderie, may have been a factor in their decision to build another RV.
 
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Not a factor .... well sorta

The site was not a direct factor, in that my wife wanted a four place. However, I think the site was indirectly a big factor. You see, I chose the RV10 because of the reputation Vans has for wonderful aircraft, great support and someday (I hope a long time from now) great resale value.

Most home builts are not worth the sum of their parts cost ..... not so with Vans.

I think this site goes a long way in supporting that reputation.
 
Didn't vote but still want to respond!!

You see Bob, the thing is that many of us started our builds waaaay before VAF came along! But this site has been so informative, so supportive, and yes, even so social, that I just can't help myself!

I just HAD to jump in and add my two cents worth! Doug Reeves and VAF is absolutely priceless!!

There....I feel better now..;)
 
VAF's existence had no impact on my decision to build--I helped my dad with a -6 starting in 1998, and we finished and flew it well before I knew VAF existed. Deciding to build, and eventually to go with a -7, was entirely driven by my involvement with Dad's airplane and the other guys at FFC.

However, I've gained a lot of good technical information, and my decision to go EFI stemmed from first learning about it here.

ETA: Started in 2013
 
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The site was not a direct factor, in that my wife wanted a four place. However, I think the site was indirectly a big factor. You see, I chose the RV10 because of the reputation Vans has for wonderful aircraft, great support and someday (I hope a long time from now) great resale value.

Most home builts are not worth the sum of their parts cost ..... not so with Vans.

I think this site goes a long way in supporting that reputation.

Ditto. I would have built my 10 regardless of whether VAF existed as I started looking at building back in the early 90's (Glasairs and Lancairs), changed my focus to 4-seaters as my family grew (Velocity, Compair, Lancair, Wheeler Express, Murphy Super Rebel) in the early 2000's and knew what I wanted in 2003 when the RV-10 project was announced.

However, when asked to provide an opinion as to whether an RV is the right choice for a prospective builder/buyer, I always include the builder community, which VAF is a major part of, as one of the "Pros" for going with an RV.
 
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While I love this site and have had great help from it so far, I cannot say that it was a factor in my decision.

The lost Dan C RV7 website was way more important, it was when reading that site, that I decided that I would sooner or later build an RV.... When the time finally came the RV14 had been announced :D
 
Us too.

I can still remember D.R. coming to the Beacon with his camera before he quit his day job and eating a burger wanting to get started on an RV. Us too for that matter, as we would drive up from Houston to see what RV's would show-up. But, the "VAF" as it came to be named as time went on was and is factor or good contribution to our build.
Thanks to all that have helped all these years as we still like to pick-up ideas and hints from this system of collaborations. Yours, R.E.A. III # 80888
 
I voted "It was not a factor"

The existence of VAF was only vaguely known to me and was not a factor in deciding to purchase the kit.

Synergy Air was the motivating force for me. I knew I could get started with professionals and they would teach my wife the basics. And, having my wife on board was everything!

That being said: VAF turned out to be a HUGE resource. This project would be taking much longer if I didn't have the years of information to lean on.

The only reason VAF wasn't the motivating force was my ignorance of it's depth of knowledge at the time.
 
Watching Jim Cone enter the pattern in his RV-6A at Smartt Field, do overhead break into the downwind while I was pre-flighting a barely flyable rental Cherokee 140 is why I decided to build an RV.
 
I voted not a factor

I voted "not a factor" because I had not seen or heard of VAF prior to my decision to build my RV-7. I started to build in early 2006 and first flew in 2016.

I did follow a few online build sites, especially Dan Checkoway's, prior to my decision to build.

However, I discovered and joined VAF shortly after I started building and have found it invaluable ever since.

EDIT: Perhaps the question should be, "Was VAF a factor in my ability to FINISH an RV?" In my case most probably!
 
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I read VAF religiously for a year before I started my project! Being a first time builder and new to the "ExperiMENTAL" world, I couldn't get enough! I would have never struck out on this adventure without it!
 
This poll is more flawed than the previous one.

Multiple builders cannot say they built more because of a website, any more than people who always by Chevrolet do so because of TV ads. They are predisposed from their prior experience.

You are also clearly discounting the site's impact on the non-build decision maker. The site was an influence between buying a flying RV vs a Mustang II.

As with all things statistics... there are no right answers. Just a lot of interpretations.
 
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I didn't vote because I did not build my -7, but I can say with certainty that I would not have purchased an RV without discovering this site. It is one of the reasons why I'm so adamant about supporting Doug. I can go on and on about how great owning an RV is but you all already know that, so I for one have been very grateful and will continue to be grateful to be a part of this community and everything that Doug has done to keep it going.
 
You are also clearly discounting the site's impact on the non-build decision maker. The site was an influence between buying a flying RV vs a Mustang II.

Rob, thank you for your comment. This poll was set up specifically to gauge in some quantifiable manner whether Vans Aircraft benefits in terms of kit sales from the existence of VAF.

There is no direct financial benefit to Vans Aircraft in the re-selling of completed aircraft thus I deleted the first poll and restricted the second poll to builders only.

This poll was not established out of whimsical curiosity. Hopefully it leads somewhere. Stand by.

And for others who have not voted yet...please do so.
 
Some value to the mothership comes from parts sales for planes purchased flying which need repairs or updates. Does it not?
 
Rob, thank you for your comment. This poll was set up specifically to gauge in some quantifiable manner whether Vans Aircraft benefits in terms of kit sales from the existence of VAF.
.

I don't see how you can quantify VAF's contribution to Van's sales via a simple poll. As your poll indicates, VAF is only factor for some and that's a only tiny sample of the whole RV builder population (187 as of this post vs thousands) and doesn't capture those who don't go online, don't care for VAF (and there are a few), or determine what the impact really would be if VAF didn't exist at all. IOW, it's easy for someone to say it was an important factor since it does exist, but if it didn't, we have no way of knowing if those respondents would have chosen a different brand or chosen not to build at all. At the end of the day, I'm of the opinion that RVs sell RVs and that ancillary contributions to the bottom line by intangibles like the builder community are marginal at best. YMMV......
 
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Rob, thank you for your comment. This poll was set up specifically to gauge in some quantifiable manner whether Vans Aircraft benefits in terms of kit sales from the existence of VAF.

There is no direct financial benefit to Vans Aircraft in the re-selling of completed aircraft thus I deleted the first poll and restricted the second poll to builders only.

This poll was not established out of whimsical curiosity. Hopefully it leads somewhere. Stand by.

And for others who have not voted yet...please do so.

Van's benefits in supporting a used market ecosystem. Best aviation example is Cirrus.
A few examples of how Van's benefits. They sell parts, upgrades to buyers. A healthy used market gives a builder confidence that some equity will be returned to his/her estate at some point. e.g. the money is not just thrown away. If I plan on a 100% loss of money spent on building a plane, this is likely a non-starter for me. If I accept a 50% loss, this becomes much more "bearable".
I have discussed buying vs building with a couple of pilots who own RVs. Both bought, maintained the plane. Now both are building because they want something custom, and will sell the one they bought when the build is complete.

I am also trying to understand, how this pole is "useful'.

Tim
 
I don't see how you can quantify VAF's contribution to Van's sales via a simple poll. As your poll indicates, VAF is only factor for some and that's a only tiny sample of the whole RV builder population (187 as of this post vs thousands) and doesn't capture those who don't go online, don't care for VAF (and there are a few), or determine what the impact really would be if VAF didn't exist at all. IOW, it's easy for someone to say it was an important factor since it does exist, but if it didn't, we have no way of knowing if those respondents would have chosen a different brand or chosen not to build at all. At the end of the day, I'm of the opinion that RVs sell RVs and that ancillary contributions to the bottom line by intangibles like the builder community are marginal at best. YMMV......

Very true statement!
 
Well, I'm building an RV-3B, and I'm doing it more to have a good project than to have an RV-3B. When I was considering which airplane to build, this one would not have crossed my attention at all, were it not for VAF. The other planes, except for the RV-12 (which I rejected because of not being a taildragger), were not RVs.

So in my case, VAF was the single most important factor in my kit purchase.

Dave
 
Well, I'm building an RV-3B, and I'm doing it more to have a good project than to have an RV-3B. When I was considering which airplane to build, this one would not have crossed my attention at all, were it not for VAF. The other planes, except for the RV-12 (which I rejected because of not being a taildragger), were not RVs.

So in my case, VAF was the single most important factor in my kit purchase.

Dave

Wow!!!!

Considering a 12 or a 3. That's quite a range, never mind other aircraft were in the running as well!

And VAF was the "single most important" factor. Lost for words!
 
I different slant on the same idea......

Van's benefits in supporting a used market ecosystem. Best aviation example is Cirrus.
A few examples of how Van's benefits. They sell parts, upgrades to buyers. A healthy used market gives a builder confidence that some equity will be returned to his/her estate at some point. e.g. the money is not just thrown away.

It would be hard to qualify the used RV market as a money maker for Van's.....

One example would be to consider the cost of tech support.
When a builder finishes an RV, the need for tech support usually ends for the most part (assuming they used it at all). When that RV gets sold to a new owner.... particularly one that is totally green to all things RV (because they haven't spent years immersed in the builder culture), the tech support process starts all over again. This can happen multiple times with the same airplane.

Also consider that in most cases, any big money being spent by new owners is going to businesses that sell and or install avionics. Purchases of replacement parts and canopy covers don't go very far towards supporting the used market side of the business.
 
It's kinda funny......

...how I first became aware of VAF. Got the bug in 2008, met a fellow builder purely by coincidence shortly thereafter, visited a few more local area builders, Got a link from someone for the RV List, started seeing lots of posts that were of a competing nature with VAF, followed by the capitulation of sorts of the RV List with instructions to seek out VAF, as it was becoming the source of choice for most builders that I was aware of. Was introduced to Dan Checkoway's site early on, tapped into VAF shortly thereafter, and been there ever since. Then I also discovered other RV builder's blogs and logs.

Then I joined two different EAA chapters. My first meeting at one of them was a meeting at an airport hangar to watch a demo of how to re-cover the fuse of a Husky. Then I got to take a ride in the back seat of an RV-8 for 20 whole minutes - and what a ride that was! Talk about having "a little" incentive to build after all that! My cup was running over at that point, and VAF was a major reason for that.

This site is invaluable to me. It was the first actual forum that I ever officially belonged to, and I had to learn all about "forum speak" and "forum etiquette," and most importantly, how to search the forums AND post pictures properly.

Then I gained an EXTREME appreciation for how well organized this site was, compared so many of the other forums out there, both aviation and non-aviation related. I also appreciated the fact that it had some "rules" that are very closely monitored - most of which I have no issues with at all, and some that I just have to learn to live with if I want to play in here (and that's totally OK).

So the existence of VAF is most definitely a significant reason why I decided to build an RV - non-stop shopping for almost anything you need to know, with some really smart people out there, many of whom I have met personally over the years, and respect all the more. it is not THE single most important reason for me, but very close to that.

Donation coming soon DR!
 
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At the end of the day, I'm of the opinion that RVs sell RVs .

The truth is that any manufacturer who is conceited or foolish enough to imagine that their products will simply sell themselves is not destined to have a big future.

RV kits are good products but endless companies have gone to the wall despite having good products. In todays ever-competitive commercial environment having a good marketing strategy is just as important as having a good product. And that applies to everyone, including Vans.

Vans understands this principle and that is why they advertise strategically. It's also why they spend buckets of money annually promoting their products at major airshows such as Oshkosh. Like every other successful manufacturer they inevitably have to spend money to market their products and reinforce their brand.
 
The truth is that any manufacturer who is conceited or foolish enough to imagine that their products will simply sell themselves is not destined to have a big future.

RV kits are good products but endless companies have gone to the wall despite having good products. In todays ever-competitive commercial environment having a good marketing strategy is just as important as having a good product. And that applies to everyone, including Vans.

Vans understands this principle and that is why they advertise strategically. It's also why they spend buckets of money annually promoting their products at major airshows such as Oshkosh. Like every other successful manufacturer they inevitably have to spend money to market their products and reinforce their brand.

Sigh. Yes, I get that and I didn't mean to imply that Vans doesn't need to market. Obviously they do, I just don't happen to think that traditional marketing is particularly effective at generating E-AB kit sales, but that's just my gut assessment--I have nothing empirical to base that on. What I meant by RVs sell RVs was it's the quality of the product that ultimately sustains sales. IMO Van's best advertising comes free of charge in the form of 10000+ flying examples. No amount of ads in any form can duplicate that impact. And all the advertising in the world will not help a crappy product survive for long in a low demand market as the free market is generally governed by the law of survival of the fittest, particular in an niche industry with low margins despite the fact that the aircraft industry as a whole produces a very price inelastic type of product.

So IMO if VAF went away tomorrow, Van's sales wouldn't suffer significantly. YMMV....
 
Marketing comes in many forms .. building an airplane is a fringe hobby where traditional marketing won't really pay for itself. Somebody who wants to build an airplane is already out there seeking information. A vast library of quality how-to and instructional videos would sell more airplane kits than anything else. How many people start down the path but never pull the trigger because they convince themselves they can't do it? A video library says "Hey, you can do it, here's how, just watch me, I'm human too." And then you have them. If they decide to do it, they will commit to the path of least resistance and most comfort. The forum is a huge marketing tool for Van's because it increases that comfort level and reduces the path of resistance by providing timely answers by experienced builders .. for free.
 
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The forum is a huge marketing tool for Van's because it increases that comfort level and reduces the path of resistance by providing timely answers by experienced builders .. for free.

Free to Van's you mean. EVERYONE deriving value from this forum supports DR. Well they SHOULD anyway. :)
 
Free to Van's you mean. EVERYONE deriving value from this forum supports DR. Well they SHOULD anyway. :)

100% agreed .. but not required .. so the casual visitor doesn't hit a paywall .. not sure if this is on purpose [ed. It is. v/r,dr]or just collateral outcome.
 
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