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  #1  
Old 10-04-2015, 01:20 PM
N427EF N427EF is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,510
Default Mogas E10, Successful alternative fuel!

Maybe it is time to revisit the mogas discussion.
With avgas prices down between 3 and 4 dollars, we mogas users are seeing
fuel prices at around $2.50 for 91 Octane E10.
Many of us have successfully used 91 Octane mogas with ethanol and found no adverse effects of any kind.
As with the many old wife's tales recently discussed in this forum, perhaps
more of us will lean towards building an ethanol tolerant fuel system.
All of the low compression engines, 8:1 or less, can easily burn 91 octane gasoline and with very little modification can also tolerate ethanol.

While there may not be much incentive with avgas prices hovering at less than 4 dollars, the time will come again when avgas fuel prices go back up to 6 or 7 dollars.
You can be pro active and build for the future or wait for the guvmt. to bring
you very expensive alternative 100 Octane avgas.
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Ernst Freitag
RV-8 finished (sold)
RV-10 Flyer 400 plus hours
Over 2500 Gallons of E10 mogas burned
Don't believe everything you know.
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  #2  
Old 10-04-2015, 01:53 PM
Kyle Boatright Kyle Boatright is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 3,285
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by N427EF View Post
Maybe it is time to revisit the mogas discussion.
With avgas prices down between 3 and 4 dollars, we mogas users are seeing
fuel prices at around $2.50 for 91 Octane E10.
Many of us have successfully used 91 Octane mogas with ethanol and found no adverse effects of any kind.
As with the many old wife's tales recently discussed in this forum, perhaps
more of us will lean towards building an ethanol tolerant fuel system.
All of the low compression engines, 8:1 or less, can easily burn 91 octane gasoline and with very little modification can also tolerate ethanol.

While there may not be much incentive with avgas prices hovering at less than 4 dollars, the time will come again when avgas fuel prices go back up to 6 or 7 dollars.
You can be pro active and build for the future or wait for the guvmt. to bring
you very expensive alternative 100 Octane avgas.
Ernst,

What changes (if any) did you make to your fuel system to better tolerate E10?
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Atlanta, GA
2001 RV-6 N46KB
2019(?) RV-10
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  #3  
Old 10-04-2015, 01:53 PM
maniago's Avatar
maniago maniago is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Bowie MD
Posts: 609
Default

Softening Proseal 890 is an issue. Company engineer told me its not been tested and tho it is ethanol "resistant" its not ethanol proof. A rain resistant poncho just doesn't cut it in a downpour.

As usual, everyones mileage seems to vary.
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Mani
MustangII (FoldingWing) "FirewallFwd&sundries": IO360B1E,RSA,C2YR-BF/F7666-2,Superior sump,James; 2xHXr,MiniX,EIS,480,327,240,SL30,Navworx; SteamAlt,AS,VSI
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  #4  
Old 10-04-2015, 02:07 PM
Fred.Stucklen's Avatar
Fred.Stucklen Fred.Stucklen is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Brooksville, FL
Posts: 318
Default MoGas

I've been using 93 Octane E10 for almost three years. I get it from a local Shell station near KBKV and have found that it contains little of no alcohol. The only difference in operation is that the engine starts a little differently with the E10 Vs 100LL. I have not seen any difference in vapor lock issues between the E10 and 100LL here in the summer Florida heat.

I have an IO-360 (two PMAG's) with teflon hoses in the engine compartment. I have not seen any softening of the proseal in the tanks. But I did have to change the "O" rings on the quick drains as they were not ethanol compliant....


Quote:
Originally Posted by N427EF View Post
Maybe it is time to revisit the mogas discussion.
With avgas prices down between 3 and 4 dollars, we mogas users are seeing
fuel prices at around $2.50 for 91 Octane E10.
Many of us have successfully used 91 Octane mogas with ethanol and found no adverse effects of any kind.
As with the many old wife's tales recently discussed in this forum, perhaps
more of us will lean towards building an ethanol tolerant fuel system.
All of the low compression engines, 8:1 or less, can easily burn 91 octane gasoline and with very little modification can also tolerate ethanol.

While there may not be much incentive with avgas prices hovering at less than 4 dollars, the time will come again when avgas fuel prices go back up to 6 or 7 dollars.
You can be pro active and build for the future or wait for the guvmt. to bring
you very expensive alternative 100 Octane avgas.
__________________
Fred Stucklen
wstucklen1@cox.net
RV-7A N924RV Flying (1520 Hrs & counting)
RV-6A N926RV 875 Hrs (Sold)
RV-6A N925RV 2008 Hrs (Sold)

Last edited by Fred.Stucklen : 10-04-2015 at 02:08 PM. Reason: Spelling
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  #5  
Old 10-04-2015, 02:36 PM
N941WR's Avatar
N941WR N941WR is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: SC
Posts: 11,444
Default

I recently had to rebuild the carb on one of my Honda generators after leaving auto fuel in it for four months. I was surprised to find as much water in the small tank as I did. Even worse was the corrosion I found on the bowl and other parts.

While I'm a fan of auto fuel, this E10 garbage MUST go, it is bad for the environment, food prices, and equipment!

Besides, as pointed out by the OP, fuel prices have come down; burn pure auto fuel or 100LL. (We can buy non-ethanol gas at our local gas station.)

Ethanol was brought to us by the same idiot paper pushers who gave us MTBE in our gas, which contaminated ground water all over the country.)
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RV-9 (Yes, it's a dragon tail)
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  #6  
Old 10-04-2015, 05:04 PM
hgerhardt's Avatar
hgerhardt hgerhardt is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: torrance, ca
Posts: 430
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Quote:
Originally Posted by N941WR View Post
I recently had to rebuild the carb on one of my Honda generators after leaving auto fuel in it for four months. I was surprised to find as much water in the small tank as I did. Even worse was the corrosion I found on the bowl and other parts....
Same thing I found with my small engines. I think the problem is that the fuel tanks on lawn mowers and our RV's are vented to the outside and "breathe" with temperature changes, as in the difference between day and night. Each overnight, the tank pulls in outside air, complete with whatever moisture is present. The alcohol absorbs that water until it's saturated, and then drops out and causes corrosion and jello-like sludge too. Modern automotive fuel systems are sealed and don't let in outside air.

And we can't easily seal the fuel system on our RV's like cars do because of the tanks' need to equalize the pressure differential or they would either implode or explode from altitude changes. Automotive fuel tanks are much more robust and can tolerate significantly more pressure differential.

So, I suppose if you fly often and not let the E10 sit too long, that's the key to success.
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  #7  
Old 10-04-2015, 08:00 PM
N427EF N427EF is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,510
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I want everyone to know that E10 has been a successful fuel for my IO-540
for the last 3 years and 300 plus hours of trouble free operation.
I also have friends who have used the same fuel without any problems even without any modifications to the fuel system.
My biggest ethanol mentor is the Vanguard squadron that has been burning pure ethanol or any combination of avgas mogas and or ethanol in their RVs for nearly 20 years with little or no modifications to their RVs

Comparing lawn mowers and other small engines made by the Chicoms is simply unrealistic when looking at a state of the art Lycoming and a proven and ethanol tolerant fuel injection system such as AFP and others.

Quote:
While I'm a fan of auto fuel, this E10 garbage MUST go, it is bad for the environment, food prices, and equipment!
I agree with you but why spend your efforts getting mad with guvmt policies when you can easily take advantage of what the fuel can do for you.
Apart from the price it keeps the engine and plugs wonderfully clean.

Quote:
What changes (if any) did you make to your fuel system to better tolerate E10?
I installed a constant flow fuel return system. It is very simple and the only purpose is to constantly introduce cool fuel to the fuel system to keep vapor lock from developing.
I also replaced the o rings on the quick drains with ethanol tolerant rings.

Quote:
Softening Proseal 890 is an issue. Company engineer told me its not been tested and that it is ethanol "resistant" its not ethanol proof.
Tell the engineer it has been tested by many experimental aircraft builders
and after burning through nearly 2000 gallons of ethanol fuel, the tank sealant looks as good as new.
I am aware that this is not acceptable to the certified world but is most certainly good enough for experimental aviation.
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Ernst Freitag
RV-8 finished (sold)
RV-10 Flyer 400 plus hours
Over 2500 Gallons of E10 mogas burned
Don't believe everything you know.
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  #8  
Old 10-04-2015, 08:49 PM
JimWoo50 JimWoo50 is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 370
Default Glad for this discussion

I have been considering crossing over to the dark side and using 91oct e10. I can save over 2$ per gallon over 100LL. I used Mogas in my 0-300 powered 172 for years with no negative issues whatsoever and am currently using pure 91 oct. in my O-320 powered RV-6 but I have to fly 50 mi to get it and it's still $3.25 gal.. I can get 91 oct e10 for about $2.70 at the local gas station.

What scares me is the report I read from some European University that stated once ethanol is introduced into an engine it sets into motion corrosive activity that can never be abated even if ethanol is never used again. I have no desire to introduce corrosion into my engine but at the same time I realize millions of auto engines are running on E10 and no draconian effects have been noted.

One question I have is if pure ethanol is diluted by Mogas by a factor of 9:1 does the corrosive nature of the ethanol get reduced by %90? Or is the corrosive nature of ethanol impervious to any dilution? I hope I'm not showing off my lack of chemistry knowledge but my inquiring mind wants to know.
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  #9  
Old 10-04-2015, 08:49 PM
rv7charlie rv7charlie is offline
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Pocahontas MS
Posts: 3,014
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by maniago View Post
Softening Proseal 890 is an issue. Company engineer told me its not been tested and tho it is ethanol "resistant" its not ethanol proof. A rain resistant poncho just doesn't cut it in a downpour.

As usual, everyones mileage seems to vary.
If it hurts when you do that, then don't do that! (Use Proseal 890.)

Seriously, the current Flamemaster formulation that Van's sells is rated to be immune to ethanol; it's safe for all mogas. I checked the data sheet before building my tanks.

Charlie
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  #10  
Old 10-04-2015, 08:50 PM
Mike H Mike H is offline
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Savannah
Posts: 806
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maniago View Post
Softening Proseal 890 is an issue. Company engineer told me its not been tested and tho it is ethanol "resistant" its not ethanol proof. A rain resistant poncho just doesn't cut it in a downpour.

As usual, everyones mileage seems to vary.
Hmm....that's interesting. The spec sheet says it is impervious to alcohol.
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