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View Poll Results: EFIS or SIX-PACK
EFIS 120 90.91%
SIX-PACK (digital) 7 5.30%
SIX-PACK (vacuum steam) 5 3.79%
Voters: 132. You may not vote on this poll

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  #21  
Old 08-09-2017, 01:45 PM
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RV6_flyer RV6_flyer is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony_T View Post
Gee, the responses so far overwhelmingly favor the EFIS tapes. I’m surprised.

I have some observations and thoughts:
How easy and natural is it to roll into a coordinated 2 minute turn? Here’s how the turn indicator works on the EFIS tape display:

“The turn rate indicator is displayed as a curved magenta bar along the top, outside curve of the compass rose. The bar grows in the direction that the aircraft is currently turning and is anchored at the arrow of the numeric display. The minor tick marks to the immediate right and left of the numeric display arrow represents a half-standard-rate-turn. The major tick marks to the left and right of the minor tick marks represent a standard turn rate of 3 degrees per second.”

Got that?

Now compare that with the dial turn coordinator on the six-pack display. Just line the wings of the little airplane up with the mark. Easier? Yes.

How about the VSI on the tape display? You have to look at the arrow, read the number, and double check if it has a “-“ shown as it is hard to tell if it’s up or down without staring at it.

On the six-pack VSI a quick glance at the needle shows if you are going up or down by the hand position and you don’t even need to read the numbers. Can you tell time by looking at a conventional watch without numbers? Plus you can see the whole range, not just a small segment.

And the six-pack airspeed indicator — nice that pattern airspeed (RV-12) has the needle right at the 3 o-clock position. No need to read the numbers. A quick glance on final tells you are on-speed for landing (not considering AoA here).

So, do the tapes need less or more reading and interpretation than the dials?

I haven’t voted in the poll yet. Up until my RV-12 with the D-180 all my flying had been with six-pack, except for a G1000 weekend checkout in a Diamond DA40. Then 380 hours with the D-180 and I’m used to looking at tapes. Now with Dynon leading the way with a six-pack display option, I am taking another close look at it. Is that a pun?

If Garmin and other manufacturers include a six-pack option, would that give it more credibility? I see round gauges presented on big airplane flight decks for the engines now, does that mean the heavy iron PFD EFIS might eventually show round gauges too?
Tony:

My AI died on the way to AirVenture 2017. I paid $600 to overhaul DG 6-weeks earlier. I purchased a G5 from SteinAir and hope to install it next week. When I made the purchase, I planned to only use the G5 as an AI. Since I am due for a Transponder / Pitot / Static Test soon, I have changed my mind and will break into the pitot / static system and add the air data info then get the pitot / static / transponder test done early. The G5 costs less than a new vacuum gyro and a little more than an overhauled unit outright based on prices published on Aircraft Spruce website / 2017-2018 catalog.

Figured I would have all digital glass panel in my RV-8 and I can learn to get use to the RIBBON Airspeed and Altitude while I am still flying the backup analog gauges that have been serving me well for the past 20-years. Most likely it will be another two weeks before I have data on using the G5.

Will add a 2nd G5 and magnetometer some time in the next several years to replace the DG. Plan is to wait till it dies but SteinAir may get more money from me before that happens.
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Last edited by RV6_flyer : 08-09-2017 at 01:46 PM. Reason: spelling
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  #22  
Old 08-09-2017, 01:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony_T View Post
So, do the tapes need less or more reading and interpretation than the dials?
IMO, no. It took me a while to adjust to the PFD - where things are - but now that I am comfortable with it, I would not want to go back. My scans equal or faster than my steam gauge Cherokee 140.
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  #23  
Old 08-09-2017, 05:45 PM
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maniago maniago is offline
 
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I've gone back and forth with what to equip with for at least the last 18mos and swing from full up IFR AFS (or Dynons - when will they collapse to one format?) to a trip to Wentworth for Cessna gauges and be done with it.

I think the helo poster has it right tho, and thats that when you have no time to read numbers and process, you can still understand a comparative needle instantly. IOW, the difference I see we have here is that most folks arent flying in emergency split second situations and probably never will, so the interpretation presentation of tapes is of no consequence for them.

That said, all I know for sure right now is that I plan on having steam Alt, Airspeed and DG/Whiskey in my panel - as backup or otherwise - no matter what else I use for the rest of the required information.
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  #24  
Old 08-09-2017, 06:07 PM
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Ironflight Ironflight is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony_T View Post
Gee, the responses so far overwhelmingly favor the EFIS tapes. Iím surprised.

Not sure why you are surprised Tony - just like approach guidance has progressed to GPS (follow the magenta line) from Low Frequency AN ranges (Dit-Dah....Dah-Dit), we've learned a few things over the years with instrument as well.

I have some observations and thoughts:
How easy and natural is it to roll into a coordinated 2 minute turn? Hereís how the turn indicator works on the EFIS tape display:

ďThe turn rate indicator is displayed as a curved magenta bar along the top, outside curve of the compass rose. The bar grows in the direction that the aircraft is currently turning and is anchored at the arrow of the numeric display. The minor tick marks to the immediate right and left of the numeric display arrow represents a half-standard-rate-turn. The major tick marks to the left and right of the minor tick marks represent a standard turn rate of 3 degrees per second.Ē

Got that?
It could also be described as "bank the airplane until the magenta bar matches the tick mark". Bad manual writing doesn't mean it is hard to use!

Now compare that with the dial turn coordinator on the six-pack display. Just line the wings of the little airplane up with the mark. Easier? Yes.

How about the VSI on the tape display? You have to look at the arrow, read the number, and double check if it has a ď-ď shown as it is hard to tell if itís up or down without staring at it.

I actually find the number (plus or minus is REALLY quick to interpret) quicker, more accurate, and more stable tan tick marks or needles. YMMV - but try it before you decide.

On the six-pack VSI a quick glance at the needle shows if you are going up or down by the hand position and you donít even need to read the numbers. Can you tell time by looking at a conventional watch without numbers? Plus you can see the whole range, not just a small segment.

Most of the EFIS VSI's show you a needle as well as a number - pretty quick to see, just like a steam VSI.

And the six-pack airspeed indicator ó nice that pattern airspeed (RV-12) has the needle right at the 3 o-clock position. No need to read the numbers. A quick glance on final tells you are on-speed for landing (not considering AoA here).

Most EFIS's allow you to put a tick mark on the ASI for various speeds - easy to match the "needle" (indicator) to the tick mark - no interpretation needed.

So, do the tapes need less or more reading and interpretation than the dials?

Better or worse? Or just Different? Different isn't Worse - and oftentimes better!


I havenít voted in the poll yet. Up until my RV-12 with the D-180 all my flying had been with six-pack, except for a G1000 weekend checkout in a Diamond DA40. Then 380 hours with the D-180 and Iím used to looking at tapes. Now with Dynon leading the way with a six-pack display option, I am taking another close look at it. Is that a pun?

Actually, almost all of them have a six-pack display option - but take a look at your poll results for how popular they seem to be. Just saying....

If Garmin and other manufacturers include a six-pack option, would that give it more credibility? I see round gauges presented on big airplane flight decks for the engines now, does that mean the heavy iron PFD EFIS might eventually show round gauges too?
I'd suggest an open mind and a learning attitude until you've had a chance to fly what you might find to be new and different. You can buy a flight sim for your computer and get head start in trying out different options before you commit to aviating.

And oh - those AN Range approaches....talk about working up a good sweat! No way I want to fly those for real - I learned them in a Link Simulator, and I'll take a GPS approach any day!
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  #25  
Old 08-09-2017, 08:35 PM
RFSchaller RFSchaller is offline
 
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The whole idea with electronic displays is the Burger King approach: have it your way. I think each user has to decide which format suits them best.
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  #26  
Old 08-10-2017, 05:56 AM
AirHound AirHound is offline
 
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Is it because glass has been proven absolutely reliable and the given that all pilots carry portable gps's that standby compasses are not required. At least on the 12?
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  #27  
Old 08-10-2017, 07:04 AM
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What I like about the typical EFIS PFD tape display is all the required info is so close together it makes maintaining a scan easier, at least for me, compared to the eye movement required for a scan with a traditional 6-pack. For whatever reason I tend to fixate less with the tapes.

Bottom line this is all about works best for you, and not whether one is better than the other, as both presentations get the job done.
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  #28  
Old 08-10-2017, 08:26 AM
TomVal TomVal is offline
 
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My -12 has dual GRT EFIS displays...but as far as "hand flying", I thought the B-757 had the perfect mix of glass/steam instrumentation. It had a standard airspeed indicator and altimeter as primary instruments with the glass attitude and navigation displays in the center. Having a broad instrument needle with a bug set for reference allowed monitoring airspeed and altitude deviations with peripheral vision...required no interpretation.

My -8 also had dual GRT's with analog airspeed and altimeter. I always used both for takeoff and approach.

Having grown up with steam...that is my comfort zone. All you youngsters are dialed in to the current magic...to now include the HUD!

Sorry...my response wasn't exactly on topic.
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Last edited by TomVal : 08-10-2017 at 08:32 AM.
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  #29  
Old 08-10-2017, 08:45 AM
Dan B Dan B is offline
 
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I transitioned to EFIS/glass over 20 years ago due to new jets the company purchased. It was a lot easier than learning to scan a six-pack when I worked on my private/commercial/instrument/ATP ratings. My RV9 is EFIS/glass and no iron gage instruments. The backup attitude/AS/altimeter is glass. My wife transitioned easily to the EFIS.

I was told long ago that I could either get on the technology train, or get left at the station. I chose to get on!
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  #30  
Old 08-10-2017, 08:47 AM
rvbuilder2002 rvbuilder2002 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironflight View Post
I'd suggest an open mind and a learning attitude until you've had a chance to fly what you might find to be new and different.
I agree.

There has been comments that such and such method is easier.....

Easy in anything is usually based prior knowledge or experience that can be applied to a new experience or situation.

Someone that learns using an EFIS from the very beginning wouldn't consider analog displays to be easier.

I assure you it can be learned. And once learned, jumping back and forth between analog and traditional EFIS/PFD is then no big deal.
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