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View Poll Results: EFIS or SIX-PACK
EFIS 120 90.91%
SIX-PACK (digital) 7 5.30%
SIX-PACK (vacuum steam) 5 3.79%
Voters: 132. You may not vote on this poll

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  #11  
Old 08-08-2017, 08:53 PM
Gary7A Gary7A is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Dalton, Ohio
Posts: 11
Default Different perspective

The tapes are obviously fine when the flying is prosaic.

My background is mostly rotary wing. There are several normal helicopter
maneuvers where things happen quickly, such as in Cat A and
rooftop takeoffs. Practicing engine failures during a takeoff from an oil rig
is inherently a fast exercise. Being able to see trends at a glance plus not having to read and interpret digits (which takes time) during such maneuvers is very advantageous.

We had one model with vertical tapes but steam backup airspeed and
altimeter located off-axis toward the center of the cockpit. I made it a point
to notice what the flying pilot was looking at during rapid maneuvers.
Without exception it was the backup airspeed, not the tape right in front of him.

Subsequent models from our company had steam gauge replicas on the EFIS.

I'm curious as to what type gauges aerobatic competitors use. I've only seen a few Pitts, which had steam.
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  #12  
Old 08-08-2017, 09:14 PM
David Paule David Paule is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Boulder, CO
Posts: 3,177
Default

One thing worth considering with some experimentals and older certified aircraft, is that with analog gauges, electric power isn't required. Once that's part of the mix, the weight goes up and the cost, especially if you need to add ADS-B.

One has to carefully assess their own goals - but not installing all that stuff can have certain advantages worth considering.

Dave
RV-3B, now skinning the fuselage
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  #13  
Old 08-09-2017, 05:33 AM
AirHound AirHound is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: OFallon IL now, everywhere before
Posts: 149
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Paule View Post
One thing worth considering with some experimentals and older certified aircraft, is that with analog gauges, electric power isn't required. Once that's part of the mix, the weight goes up and the cost, especially if you need to add ADS-B.

One has to carefully assess their own goals - but not installing all that stuff can have certain advantages worth considering.

Dave
RV-3B, now skinning the fuselage
I'm all for the EFIS weight advantage. However, miss the practicality of being able to fly partial panel with steam gauges. Was wondering if anyone knows of any EFIS inflight shutdown information or lessons learned, outside of, have a charged backup battery and a portable GPS? Lastly, all be it navigation, if the Digital DG becomes unavailable has anyone successfully installed traditional standby compass? Thank you for your thoughts!
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  #14  
Old 08-09-2017, 05:46 AM
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MikeyDale MikeyDale is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Garden City Texas
Posts: 760
Default

I started flying with Dynon Effis 2.5 yrs ago and never looked back! Maybe it is because I stared at that panel for a year and a half while finishing my 7 but I had no problems transitioning to 100% glass!
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  #15  
Old 08-09-2017, 07:11 AM
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Carl Froehlich Carl Froehlich is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Dogwood Airpark (VA42)
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AirHound View Post
I'm all for the EFIS weight advantage. However, miss the practicality of being able to fly partial panel with steam gauges. Was wondering if anyone knows of any EFIS inflight shutdown information or lessons learned, outside of, have a charged backup battery and a portable GPS? Lastly, all be it navigation, if the Digital DG becomes unavailable has anyone successfully installed traditional standby compass? Thank you for your thoughts!
I would never consider flying IFR with a single EFIS display, nor would I fly IFR with a single power source for the panel (I'm not a fan of multiple backup batteries so I address this with a dual battery electrical distribution scheme).

EFIS partial panel is, for me, defined as "I lost the other display". I did my IFR check ride with a dual SkyView panel and the examiner was ok with the partial panel check being done by turning off one of the SkyView displays. The two ADHARS modules are independent in operation as well as power source, so losing both of them is a very low probability.

I note that while not required by any regs that I could find, my local FSDO office required a whiskey compass in the plane before signing off the airworthiness certificate. So I have one. That was over five years ago so perhaps they have come up with the times. I'll find out next year on the new project.

Carl
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  #16  
Old 08-09-2017, 08:08 AM
Canadian_JOY Canadian_JOY is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 1,337
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AirHound View Post
I'm all for the EFIS weight advantage. However, miss the practicality of being able to fly partial panel with steam gauges. Was wondering if anyone knows of any EFIS inflight shutdown information or lessons learned, outside of, have a charged backup battery and a portable GPS? Lastly, all be it navigation, if the Digital DG becomes unavailable has anyone successfully installed traditional standby compass? Thank you for your thoughts!
Since I've been flying Experimental EFIS equipment (namely legacy Dynon products) I've replaced a "steam" altimeter, DG and two Turn & Bank indicators while the EFIS hasn't so much as even blinked once.

As has been mentioned previously, "partial panel" is a concept developed to match with the steam gauge panel. If building with glass, build in sufficient redundancy that "partial panel" truly means loss of one redundant display. Switching to glass requires one to think differently - trapping our minds in a paradigm that no longer applies is dangerous thinking indeed.

I was once asked what this last phrase meant. I likened it to driving a modern car without a buggy whip. When you run out of gas you'll feel naked because you no longer have a buggy whip to produce motive force. The buggy whip is as much an anachronism as the steam gauge "partial panel" concept.

Oh, by the way... Tapes format for me, hands down. Situational awareness is vastly improved with them. Especially when one doesn't come into the cockpit with many thousands of hours of steam gauge bias. I tested this out with my kids, using FlightSim. They simply could produce a more accurate picture of their flight situation using tapes (and they had zero hours of flight experience).
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  #17  
Old 08-09-2017, 11:08 AM
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rmartingt rmartingt is offline
 
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Location: Savannah, GA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadian_JOY View Post
Oh, by the way... Tapes format for me, hands down. Situational awareness is vastly improved with them. Especially when one doesn't come into the cockpit with many thousands of hours of steam gauge bias. I tested this out with my kids, using FlightSim. They simply could produce a more accurate picture of their flight situation using tapes (and they had zero hours of flight experience).
I suspect a lot of thst is also the "HUD-like" pitch ladder, synvis, and flight path marker. Just given those you can make a very quick and useful assessment of the aircraft's general energy state and flight condition, without having to interpret dials or tapes.
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  #18  
Old 08-09-2017, 11:57 AM
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sglynn sglynn is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Anacortes, WA
Posts: 521
Default 6 pack

I like the 6 pack view. But then I've been flying a Cherokee with 6 pack for 20 years. My RV-7A is almost done and will have a Dynon. I hope I can transition to tape view and like it.

But right now when I look at the two screens, I can quickly figure out the 6-pack view. I have to read the tape view and it takes me 3x as long.

I'm pretty sure the initial first flight will be 6 pack view.

have fun
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  #19  
Old 08-09-2017, 12:25 PM
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Ironflight Ironflight is offline
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Back when we were still flying the Space Shuttle (last flight now what....six years ago?!), I came to realize that we had pilot astronauts, all generally military test pilots before they had been selected for the astronaut corps, who had started their basic training in glass cockpit airplanes in their military primary flight training. Flying anything with steam gauges was the oddity for them. The Shuttle's "Glass Panel" upgrade merely replicated the tapes and round ADI/HSI displays (a weird mix of formats with a heritage that could keep be traced to the XB-70), so it really was a transition for guys used to a PFD display.

That just puts into perspective how old those of us who grew up with steam gauges might really be.....

All PFD on EFIS on the airplanes I own these days!
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Last edited by Ironflight : 08-09-2017 at 01:12 PM.
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  #20  
Old 08-09-2017, 01:27 PM
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Tony_T Tony_T is online now
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Seattle, WA
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Default

Gee, the responses so far overwhelmingly favor the EFIS tapes. I’m surprised.

I have some observations and thoughts:
How easy and natural is it to roll into a coordinated 2 minute turn? Here’s how the turn indicator works on the EFIS tape display:

“The turn rate indicator is displayed as a curved magenta bar along the top, outside curve of the compass rose. The bar grows in the direction that the aircraft is currently turning and is anchored at the arrow of the numeric display. The minor tick marks to the immediate right and left of the numeric display arrow represents a half-standard-rate-turn. The major tick marks to the left and right of the minor tick marks represent a standard turn rate of 3 degrees per second.”

Got that?

Now compare that with the dial turn coordinator on the six-pack display. Just line the wings of the little airplane up with the mark. Easier? Yes.

How about the VSI on the tape display? You have to look at the arrow, read the number, and double check if it has a “-“ shown as it is hard to tell if it’s up or down without staring at it.

On the six-pack VSI a quick glance at the needle shows if you are going up or down by the hand position and you don’t even need to read the numbers. Can you tell time by looking at a conventional watch without numbers? Plus you can see the whole range, not just a small segment.

And the six-pack airspeed indicator — nice that pattern airspeed (RV-12) has the needle right at the 3 o-clock position. No need to read the numbers. A quick glance on final tells you are on-speed for landing (not considering AoA here).

So, do the tapes need less or more reading and interpretation than the dials?

I haven’t voted in the poll yet. Up until my RV-12 with the D-180 all my flying had been with six-pack, except for a G1000 weekend checkout in a Diamond DA40. Then 380 hours with the D-180 and I’m used to looking at tapes. Now with Dynon leading the way with a six-pack display option, I am taking another close look at it. Is that a pun?

If Garmin and other manufacturers include a six-pack option, would that give it more credibility? I see round gauges presented on big airplane flight decks for the engines now, does that mean the heavy iron PFD EFIS might eventually show round gauges too?
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