Passenger Loading

I have been flying the RV-12 a lot (13 times this month so far) but never with a passengr (deliberately have no passenger insurance coverage) but I have a BFR due next month.

I am not certain what to expect with fuel and a passenger on the right side on take off performance or lateral control impact.

I intend to progressively load the plane with ballast and ease into it.

What control effects, if any, do you folks giving rides notice as opposed to solo flight?

thankis for your input.

How did you complete your phase I flight testing without loading the aircraft to gross weight?

Left stick

HI john,

I have 143WM trimmed for solo +about 2/3 fuel. With an adult passenger I have to hold left stick-- not a lot but noticeable. Of course rate of climb drops a bit, too. If you let go of the stick a right roll will start immediately-- not rapid, but you'll notice it. Nothing even close to being something you can't handle, though.
I've been trying to come up with a simple, ground-adjustable trim tab idea for the flaperon. Set it to neutral for solo, up flaperon if I'm going to carry a passenger.

Wayne 120241

Weight

My concern is unbalanced loading...heavier on one side, not total balanced loading which is straightforward with kitty liter and cement bags.

JohnF said:

My concern is unbalanced loading...heavier on one side, not total balanced loading which is straightforward with kitty liter and cement bags.

Click to expand...

No worries John, by the time you are 3' off the ground you will have compensated for the weight already. It's automatic.

Phase 1 ballast...

Mel said:

How did you complete your phase I flight testing without loading the aircraft to gross weight?

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Mel,
Actually, the PAP requires a ballast sufficient for a test weight of 1050 lb. including the pilot and fuel. There is no gross weight test card to fly in the RV-12 Phase 1.

John,
I have given several rides to folks over 200 lbs., most recently my passenger was 260 lbs and we departed at gross weight with 14 gallons of fuel and some baggage on board. I weigh in at 185 so there was fair amount unequal loading around the centerline. Takeoff is a bit longer with that much weight. Like Larry says you will compensate as soon as you lift off, I do pay close attention at lift off with a heavy passenger. But stick forces and movements required are small. Kids and little people are no problem. I have not felt the need for aileron trim even when flying heavy passengers. One thing to be careful of is big passengers can interfer with movement of the control stick.

Also, needless to say, when flying with ballast be sure it strapped down good.

Tony

Hey John, no worries. It just climbs slower and sinks a little quicker. Other than that it flies just like solo.
Dick Seiders

Mel said:

How did you complete your phase I flight testing without loading the aircraft to gross weight?

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To Mel's point...regardless of Van's suggested procedures, my actual Part 91 FAA operating limitations in the plane state that I must complete Phase 1 at the full gross weight of the aircraft and state as such in my aircraft logbook. What would be the value of testing it at a lesser weight?

Pete

Controversy...

Peterk said:

To Mel's point...regardless of Van's suggested procedures, my actual Part 91 FAA operating limitations in the plane state that I must complete Phase 1 at the full gross weight of the aircraft and state as such in my aircraft logbook. What would be the value of testing it at a lesser weight?

Pete

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Well, I feel sure that Van's tested the SLA at "maximum operating weight". That must cover us ELSA builders, but if you build it EAB, maybe you would not be covered, would be my guess.

Also, it says that the compliance statement can/will be restated with any changes. I simply changed the "conditions" part of the statement to refer to the Van's PAP. You have to build it per the plans and that includes the PAP, IMHO. Since it is an ELSA, what other choice do you have?

To test at 1320 lbs you would have had to load the plane with five (5) five gallon water cans and full fuel. Who has done that? Speak up, guys.

This highlights problems with building this plane EAB, say with an alternate engine. You will have no PAP or test cards, you will have to design your own and you will for sure have to test at max weight and 40 hours.

Tony

Tested mine per PAP....

... that's what I thought I was supposed to do. Later took a 260 lb. friend with me - flew a little heavier but still plenty of performance.

No Controversy

BigJohn said:

... that's what I thought I was supposed to do. Later took a 260 lb. friend with me - flew a little heavier but still plenty of performance.

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John, Tony,
My only point was that operating limitations are part of your FAA Form 8130-7, special airworthiness certificate which requires that you carry them in the aircraft at all times. My personal operating limitations state that I must comply with part 91.319(b). There will be a specific logbook statement certifying the results of my phase 1 test as it relates to aircraft control through all maneuvers. Mine also states that I must perform these tests under maximum operating weight, maximum demonstrated airspeed and minimum demonstrated stall speed. AND that once completed, the aircraft cannot be operated in excess of the weights and speeds demonstrated.
I can't speak for anyone else's operating limitations. I don't know if they all read the same of not. I only know what mine says. I wanted to be able to fly mine at max gross weight so that's what I did my Phase 1 at. Your's and other's may not read the same as mine but you do have one if you have an AW Cert. Obviously, Van's PAP suggestion of 1050lbs leaves me 270 lbs short...about the size of a large passenger.

Pete

This is cut and pasted right out of my Op Limits

7. Flight testing required for Phase I operations or as a result of the incorporation of a major change will be conducted in
the assigned test area. Flight test operations will only be conducted under VFR day conditions, with the pilot as the sole
occupant of the aircraft. This aircraft must be operated for
at least 5 hours in the assigned geographic area. Following the satisfactory completion of the
required number of flight hours in the flight test area, the pilot must certify in the aircraft records that the aircraft has
been shown to comply with ? 91.319(b) with a statement that includes the following information: "I certify that the
prescribed flight test hours have been completed and the aircraft is controllable throughout its normal range of
speeds and throughout all maneuvers to be executed, has no hazardous operation characteristics or design
features, and is safe for operation. The flight test was completed under the following conditions: maximum
operating weight, maximum demonstrated airspeed, and minimum demonstrated stall speed." All major changes
or modifications will be listed in the aircraft records and the compliance statement will be restated with the changes
listed. The aircraft may not be operated in excess of the weights and speeds demonstrated.

Yep!

That's right out of the operating limitations. The verbage is straight from FAA Order 8130.2G. If yours are different, they were issued wrongly.