Insurance $100k per seat limit

I have been getting quotes for insurance on an RV-6a I am planning on purchasing. I have not been able to find a product that gives me the liability coverage that I will feel comfortable with. I have had discussions with Falcon and Nationair about the $100,000 a seat limit and if there was a product to fill the gap to $1,000,000. They both say no product exists. This then also prevents umbrella coverage for extended liablility.

Does anyone have a work around or company that will write the $1,000,000 smooth coverage? I had it on my Bonanza.

Is everyone flying with this liability exposure?

Takes the fun out of flying when you know your passenger or their family can take all the money you thought you had.

I have $1,000,000 million liability but I am guessing that it is for outside the aircraft. If you are looking for one million for the passenger and that is not available, then I suspect that you will fly solo.

I would think that having a pax sign a liability waiver be very helpful in a court case but I'm not an attorney...would love to hear from one how practical this is.

rocketbob said:

I would think that having a pax sign a liability waiver be very helpful in a court case but I'm not an attorney...would love to hear from one how practical this is.

Click to expand...

Not an attorney, but waivers are near worthless in court. Only makes people think they are covered.

This is why I stopped taking people for rides, including Young Eagles. There is no protection from EAA or waivers that cannot be thrown out in court, and the lawer bills are not covered even if you prevailed in court. You could win, but loose everything to legal costs. Being Mr. Nice guy could cost you everything you own, and that is not a position I will out my family in. No good deed goes unpunished.

Jmho.

Waivers are worthless,

the only possible use for the waiver is to make the passenger think they cannot take legal action.

My wife is an attorney and one of her fellow partners is an aviation attorney, he says the waivers are worthless. I am working on getting someone to write the gap coverage from the $100,000 per seat limits to the full million.

It seems many experimental plane owners are not aware that their passenger liability coverage is almost non-existant with our present lawsuit judgements.

If you are interested in getting this coverage for your liability (you must be flying an RV-3 if you are not) call or email Nationair, they are the broker for the Van's aircraft program. The info for the program manager is below. Let her know you want this coverage and are willing to pay a reasonable amount to get it.

If enough of us call we may be able to show that there is enough interest to provide it.

You can also do the same for Falcon who is the preferred insurance broker for the EAA.

Jenny Estes
Account Executive
Van’s ProgramManager
877.648.8267
[email protected]

I should explain,

I am not an insurance person and if I state something wrong any insurance people out there please correct me.

The product we are looking for is called $1,000,000 smooth liability coverage. Smooth coverage pays out the money no matter who or what the damage is in the incident. There would be no $100,000 per seat limit. I was also told that some companies are also writing $100,000 per person limits on policies which is even worse! That would mean that if you hurt someone outside of your airplane, you would only be covered for $100,000. The smooth coverage is available to certificated aircraft that are not antique or have other issues.

Read your policy, know your liability, it might save you or your widow wife from being very poor!

Waivers were recently debated on another thread.

Just GOOGLE "Are Liability Waivers Enforceable" and read till your heart is content on the subject....

Here is one that I thought was interesting:

An interesting table Brantel. Something to always remember if you end up in court. Just because it looks obvious to you that the logical thing to happen is that you should win, even a slam dunk, this is usually far from reality in court. The latitude judges have and the sympathy, in spite of the real law, a jury will show will often reverse any and all real logic in the situation.

The only true defense you have is good liability insurance or a very deep pocket with the willingness to spend your money.

When we fly our experimental planes, we will invariably be found at fault for the incident, and that translates into a judgement against us if someone was injured or killed.

My next email will be to the EAA asking why they do not have a program to fill the gap in this insurance chasm.

Don't worry so much

Jordan, I've been in the ag business for 41 years now and carry lethal loads of pesticides that can kill fish and or animals and sometimes humans.

I also have an RV-10 in which I haul passengers and friends.

With the foregoing in mind, it behooves us to fly even safer and take no chances with passengers aboard and consequently, no worries...life is too short for over-concern.

No formation flying...no aerobatics or high-speed low passes or flight into lousy weather with passengers. Try to be your own best insurance.

Best,

Sub Limits

Just to clarify the way the passenger sub limit works - so that we all understand. Your policy's liability limit is $1,000,000 for bodily injury and property damage. That $1Mil is LIMITED to $100,000 for bodily injury per passenger - meaning, the most that the policy will pay on your behalf to an injured passenger is $100,000.

If you're flying an RV 10 with 3 passengers and you crash and kill all aboard, your $1 Mi liability limit is available up to $100,000 X 3 (each passenger) with $700,000 left for bodily injury to non-passengers or property damage. Remember - legal fees and defense costs are paid outside this limit.

And yes - at this point in time, the only policies available to experimental aircraft owners are limited to $100,000 per pax. Same is true for low time pilots, or other "higher risk" situations. Solution - We need to fly safer.

This "per passenger" sub limit is the same for all broker accessed insurers. AVEMCO policies are limited to $100K per PERSON - any injured claimant, not just passengers.

Jeff,

Can you explain how that works in regards to legal fees and defense cost? Thank you for your time you put into educating us about insurance!

Always good plans,

Pierre. You certainly give sage advice and I always enjoy reading your posts.

Jeff you explained our current coverage much more elegantly than I stated it, thank you.

If I can get $1,000,000 smooth on a Bonanza, why not on an RV-6a? My piloting skills are the same in both aircraft. Is the aircraft itself that much more likely to cause me to have an accident? I think not. In fact I would never have a gear up accident in the 6. My pursuit of this subject is the blanket status given to our planes and flying experience. As Jeff pointed out, there are instances where the seat limit is imposed for good reason, higher risk. Are our aircraft themselves (particularly the RV series) higher risk aircraft? Are the pilots of these planes higher risk pilots? Maybe on a case by case basis. In the early 80's I purchased a Grumman Tiger. It had a very poor safety record at that time. The problem was these aircraft, even though simple single engine planes, acted more like high performance aircraft when controlling airspeed and planning landing approaches. This was corrected with pilot training and today the planes have a good safety record. I think the RV series of aircraft suffers from the same malady. Builders get their feathers ruffled when their low flight time is questioned in juxtaposition to the aircraft they are building. Look at the posts on our Forum, we have people without a private license building two place RV tail draggers with 180-200 hp engines. I would contend that could be construed as risky behavior, depending on the training the pilot eventually gets.

We always need to try to keep our flights as safe as possible. Insurance exists to spread the cost of a catastrophe over the many instead of the one. While some of us are not careful or make bad decisions, none of us leave the house in the morning thinking we will have an accident. I read posts on this forum all the time that I consider risky behavior. I consider carrying passengers without proper coverage just as risky to my family!

We rarely hear of the devastation that a family experiences when there is an accident and never hear about the effects of the law suits that inevitably occur later. Without proper insurance the devastation for that family just continues after the accident.

The policy states that the insurer will provide you a legal defense. Those costs are paid "outside" the limit ($100,000 or $1,000,000 - whichever applies). In other words - they pay your lawyer and court costs and you still have the full limit avialable to pay the award (or settlement).

Smooth limits are not available on experimentals simply because no insurer chooses to offer them. Airplane insurance is too small of an insurance niche to really be managed by actuarial data. There are more automobiles registered in Cobb County, GA than there are airplanes in the world. Acceptable underwriting for airplane insuance is largely goverened by the compeditive marketplace (my compeditors do it, so do I) and by tradition and experience of the underwritiers themselves. For most insurers, it really just comes down to "we feel like amateur-built aircraft warrant slightly higher premiums and holding the liability limits low. And we can do it because all our compeditors feel the same way."

Unfortunatly, if you NEED higher limits, you'll need to fly a Bonanza and not an RV. Really, though - we offer quotes with smooth limits to our factory-built airplane clients where they qualify - and few ever take them. They'd rather save the premium $$'s

Depending on pilot standards I have been able to get as much as $250k passenger sublimit on some RV aircraft. Just did one recently.

FWIW. I do a lot of experimental aircraft and have had my share of fatal accidents. Nearly every one was a $100k passenger limit. Every one has been settled peacefully.

That isn't always the case, but very often things go smoothly.

But there are options for liablity limits in many cases.

Tj

Resurrecting this old thread...

Because...I have been offered an opportunity to purchase "smooth" coverage at slightly less than double the cost of standard coverage.

I'm seriously considering it, but am wondering if it would be overkill. I tend to be pretty conservative regarding insurance and can talk myself into things by "worst case scenario" introspections...

Throwing it out to the brain trust...what would you do?

Disclosure: Comfortable financial situation, <5 years to go to retirement, no debt, no other major sources of potential liability claims except the usual....house, car, etc.

Thanks for any insight.