What's new
Van's Air Force

Don't miss anything! Register now for full access to the definitive RV support community.

How to never complete your Airplane....

JonJay

JonJay

Well Known Member
The forums are full of wonderful advice and lots of ideas that exemplify the spirit of experimental aviation.
It always surprised me, but seldom does anymore, when the guy with the greatest ideas, the most mods and opinions, the most vocal, is the one that has not finished his airplane!
Then there is the true experimenter, has his machine, and he is going to play with it to his hearts content. Fiddling with this, testing it, fiddling with that. I love those guys! Wish I had the time....
Now, some enjoy the build and the fiddling more than the flying, so more power to them and a lot of good ideas have come as a result.
However, a cautionary note to those still building - The kits are great as they are, right out of the box! Think hard before you start deviating from the standard build as everything takes twice as long as you think it will and many of the great fixes, ideas, and mods end up doing very little in the end.
Not sure why I felt the desire for this post, not trying to be your mother....
 
Great advice!

Everyone should look in the mirror and realize that the clock is running on that fella! I've watched a number of RV'ers wait too long when they could have been flying. Of course, the build does bring a lot of satisfaction to many. But, if you are a flier, don't run down too many rabbit trails or the clock will run out.
 
Great Post

Jon,

WHAT A GREAT POST. The Internet provides the "expert," persona, i.e. anyone more than 50 miles from home. We all know of one of those you described who used to post lengthy diatribes on ANY subject. Yet there is not one person who claims to have actually met him in person. And, now there is a frequent poster here who has never completed a RV but posts on lots of subjects. To those who don't know, do not know to take the info with a grain of salt. This could lead to some problems. I'm not saying you have to have built a RV to be of a good information source, but at least something with an engine on it or in a similar genre of aircraft. (Glasair, Lancair etc..)

On the flip side, we have some great sources of experience with a "known" background that can benefit us all. What would we do without the likes of Mel, Mahlon, Rhonda, Stein and Dan Horton to name a few. When they post, I read and listen.

As I work on my second RV, I find myself really listening to these people. What a wealth of information. Be cautious and look at the background of those posting. Some things to look for. Have they built a RV? If not, what have they built? Have other people visited their project? Have they physically assisted others in their project? Who are they? Know your source!!!

Finally, as you noted, these are great planes right out of the box. Follow the plans and be cautious of mods. Build clean, build light and don't be the "first" to use anything.:eek:
 
I could not agree more with JonJay's post about modifications! I made a couple of minor modifications on the Cozy MKIV I built and paid dearly in time and money for them. The RV is going to be per plans,,,then when its flying I will decide if any modifications will be worth the added time and aggrevation. My quess is that they won't and I will be flying a whole lot sooner, rather than later.
 
I took 2 years 8 months to build my RV7A. Many times I was ragged by other RV owners and builders to change this or that. I stayed focused and did the basic build, sure I deleted the vans brakes and wheels, really glad I did, the Grove brakes are really nice. But, back to what I was saying, the standard out of the box, slow build here, was quick and painless. I feel if I want to change anything, which I probably won't, can be done while now, flying. It better be something worth it for me to take it out of service.

I noticed a slightly warped left airleron when I fitted the wings, which got fitted for the first time when I took the whole plane to the airport. The wings where put on one time, taken off one time for cleanup of holes and than reinstalled. Again painless. This is when I found the last 10inches of the aileron went on a down slide about 1/4 inch. I pondered on it, than just moved on, you know what, I had the normal heavy wing on a 7, mainly with my backside sitting on the left side. So I would have had a heavy left wing anyway. The control of the airlerons are great. So I'm not making another one or going to try and fix it. I want to fly. I think many times people will get side tracked on little imperfections and waste precious time on them. Vans even told me that the little dip wouldn't do anything, they were right.
 
Best thing you can ever do is learn to sift through the information that is being fed to you.

I had a guy try to convince me that my GPS antenna was mounted backwards and that it would track the airplane backwards on the moving map. At first I chucked because I thought he was kidding, but he was convinced.

I had another guy (an A&P) argue with me for 30 minutes that I needed .041 safety wire on my prop. I had installed .032. I had to quit what I was doing, go and get the Hartzell prop manual and point to the line in the manual that calls out .032 safety wire!
 
Jamie said:
Best thing you can ever do is learn to sift through the information that is being fed to you.

I had a guy try to convince me that my GPS antenna was mounted backwards and that it would track the airplane backwards on the moving map. At first I chucked because I thought he was kidding, but he was convinced.

I had another guy (an A&P) argue with me for 30 minutes that I needed .041 safety wire on my prop. I had installed .032. I had to quit what I was doing, go and get the Hartzell prop manual and point to the line in the manual that calls out .032 safety wire!
Click to expand...

I didn't put in the GPS entenna, my 696 works great, even picks up sometimes in the hangar, using the internal.

On the .032, funny you mentioned that one, the DAR was throwing a fit about using the .032, he wanted .042. The FAA guy watching over him(his boss), also the fella that had been helping me with the build over the years, told him that .032 was ok. But to put the .042, you would have to drill out the role pins to make it fit, not to mention how hard it would be to make some of the bends, yuk. NOt only that, it was done already. I hate taking things apart after I get them together.
 
I disagree (I guess you knew that)

If you plan is to simply build an airplane that will lift you off the ground in fine style the advice is ok. If you have flying experience and have been an owner you have some particular mission in mind and you had better give that a lot of thought as you build. Much of your mission needs will not be met by the kit out of the box (maybe they are closer these days) and you must search options and decide how to incorporate them into your airplane when it is convenient (practical) to do so. Engine, propeller, lights, fuel system, engine sensors & gauges, instrument flight capability, autopilot, etc. The builder that is striving for excellence in his or her machine for their application is not automatically following the wrong path. My RV-6A was built by me and my wife and it is highly modified. It has a race and long range cruise configuration, night flight and IFR capable (less GPS approaches). I did finish my plane, it is exactly what I want but it is not optimized - I'm working on it. I have flown it from coast to coast many times so it is not a hangar queen.

I kinda miss old George.

Bob Axsom
 
Absolutely

Bob Axsom said:
If you plan is to simply build an airplane that will lift you off the ground in fine style the advice is ok. If you have flying experience and have been an owner you have some particular mission in mind and you had better give that a lot of thought as you build. Much of your mission needs will not be met by the kit out of the box (maybe they are closer these days) and you must search options and decide how to incorporate them into your airplane when it is convenient (practical) to do so. Engine, propeller, lights, fuel system, engine sensors & gauges, instrument flight capability, autopilot, etc. The builder that is striving for excellence in his or her machine for their application is not automatically following the wrong path. My RV-6A was built by me and my wife and it is highly modified. It has a race and long range cruise configuration, night flight and IFR capable (less GPS approaches). I did finish my plane, it is exactly what I want but it is not optimized - I'm working on it. I have flown it from coast to coast many times so it is not a hangar queen.

I kinda miss old George.

Bob Axsom
Click to expand...

I was hoping you would chime in. The kind of modifications you are talking about make sense and everyone needs to understand their mission and objective and make those decisions and choices. That level of understanding takes experience, and most mods take time. My point is that many mods lead to very little gain, and huge losses in time. In contrast, there are some great mods that folks like you have expended great effort to qualify and quantify. If I ever get the time, I am going to jump all over your work and others hard work, graciously shared, and incorporate a few of those on my own airplane.
 
Really the truth is the same as it is with everything else aviation. Do it the way you want and enjoy the ride; where ever it takes you.

My goal is not to fly this -7 ASAP so I'm taking some time and building my dream with a few fun mods along the way. (IFR systems, floors, extra lightening holes - those take the longest!, etc.) It all takes time. If I needed to get in the air ASAP I would put my head down, stick to the plans and forget the fun stuff that would make the plane special to me.

I'm not interested in a plane that I finished just to finish. Some are and they will certainly be flying before me! When mine is completed, I can feel good about every part of it...even if some of those parts were the source of a few curse words along he way and several extra hours!

- Peter
 
Folks who have never done "it" but are experts at "it" are high on list of my own personal pet peeves. Running down the list of things I have been told I "must" have over the last six months: two-axis autopilot, redundant EFIS / EMS, auxiliary fuel, GPS w/WAAS, cockpit floor w/complete sound proofing, insulation on the firewall, and more. None of those things are bad ideas - certainly not - but they are certainly not must-haves either: Van's planes fly fine without most/all of them and I trust mine will too.

I might even go so far as to say that for day VFR, mine will probably fly better because it doesn't have the extra weight of some of that stuff (I caved on the EFIS because it was lighter than a vacuum system).
 
ChiefPilot said:
I might even go so far as to say that for day VFR, mine will probably fly better because it doesn't have the extra weight of some of that stuff (I caved on the EFIS because it was lighter than a vacuum system).
Click to expand...

Contrary to popular belief.....

My "heavy" 1172 lb. RV6A with it's Hartzell C/S prop and old fashioned heavy starter motor, as well as the heavier tri-cycle gear; is very sports car like when compared to lighter RV's including 9's and 6's. It goes like a bat out of h##l on takeoff, and very light and manuverable on the controls.

It even has the "old fashioned" 1" trim tab sticking out on the aileron, which seems quite preferable over the spring bias type; according to other RV pilots who have flown my plane. Elevator and aileron trims are servo controlled from the joystick.

I have insulation and carpet on the floor, but none on the firewall. I may never, as my ANR headsets do a great job of sound elimination.

And yes, a C/S prop & 2-axis auto pilot, along with GPS with WAAS is very important! :D And I like the two comms with the audio panel too!

L.Adamson --- RV6A, 180HP LYC, Hartzell C/S, heavy six pac panel with vacuum, oxygen (figured in the 1172 lbs), Garmin 696 with XM weather, radio
 
Everything about this game is subject to the Chinese Menu Rule:

Fast
Cheap
Good

Pick any two.
 
My plan is to build the standard 7 VFR configuration.

I was thinking that after I flew a couple of 100 hours in it, i would know what i wanted to change and then i always could change it

is this correct thinking ?
 
You can't go wrong with that thinking, but...

N72YS said:
My plan is to build the standard 7 VFR configuration.

I was thinking that after I flew a couple of 100 hours in it, i would know what i wanted to change and then i always could change it

is this correct thinking ?
Click to expand...

...the risk is that once you are flying, you will be having too much fun that you wont want to put the airplane down to make the changes! Upgrades take more time in a completed airplane than they do when you are building.
 
<<Upgrades take more time in a completed airplane than they do when you are building.>>

Which is why (returning to the original post) some take a little longer to build.....deliberate choice.
 
signature!

DanH said:
Everything about this game is subject to the Chinese Menu Rule:

Fast
Cheap
Good

Pick any two.
Click to expand...

I like that rule so much I added it to my signature. It applies to anything. I am a marine aquarium hobbyist and it applies there as much as here.
 
Yeah, that's just what I needed -- to feel like a second-rate member of VAF because my plane isn't done yet. :eek:

Now if anyone who is concerned a bout that would like to fly up to KSGS and pitch in on the wiring....

There's only one incorrect way to build an RV airplane -- on someone else's terms. I just hate it when other people try to make the rules. I'm building it. I'm paying for it. It'll be done when I say it's done.
 
Last edited:
Andrew Sego said:
Heh.... I'll bet the builders outnumber the flyers around here. :D
Click to expand...

Don't sweat it Bob. Many of the "flyers" claim they're done when it flies...even if it does lack paint and the glasswork looks like five miles of bad road....

Bet you never saw a new Pitts pushed out in silver sunblock ;)
 
DanH said:
Don't sweat it Bob. Many of the "flyers" claim they're done when it flies...even if it does lack paint and the glasswork looks like five miles of bad road....
Click to expand...

My feelings exactly! :D

A paint job is good for another two or three months of work; or $6000 - $9000+.

L.Adamson --- RV6A flying & painted
 
Geico266 said:
Show off! :p
;)
Click to expand...

I won't kid you................painting is a lot of work! I'd have to start painting at 5:00 A.M. because it was summer and the paint would "flash" at 80 degrees. The yellow that I used could require up to six coats about 15-20 minutes apart. My plane also has full black and white invasion stripes along with the stars and stripes. Everytime a different color was applied, the entire rest of the plane would have to be taped and covered. It's extremely time and labor intensive. I doubt that those who fly un-painted realize what still lies ahead. Unless they just still have thick wallets. :)

L.Adamson
 
As I get asked All the time, when will it be done! (It's most likely a conversation point.)
I still use the old line ... "Thursday!" ... don't know what year :D
Calms the waters.
If they don't understand, I know better.

I also like Dan's post...
Everything about this game is subject to the Chinese Menu Rule:

Fast
Cheap
Good
Pick any two.


My .02
 
Sorry Bob

Bob Collins said:
Yeah, that's just what I needed -- to feel like a second-rate member of VAF because my plane isn't done yet. :eek:

Now if anyone who is concerned a bout that would like to fly up to KSGS and pitch in on the wiring....

There's only one incorrect way to build an RV airplane -- on someone else's terms. I just hate it when other people try to make the rules. I'm building it. I'm paying for it. It'll be done when I say it's done.
Click to expand...

Certainly was not the intent of the thread. Absolutely everyone should build what they want, or need, or whatever THEY feel they need it to be, and take as much or as little time as they want. Just trying to remind folks, and help out some of those less experienced, that every mod is not necessary even if it is written up as a must have in this forum...
 
JonJay said:
......
It always surprised me, but seldom does anymore, when the guy with the greatest ideas, the most mods and opinions, the most vocal, is the one that has not finished his airplane!....
Click to expand...
Is there any builder anywhere out there who has not endured these two endlessly asked questions?

#1: "When you gonna fly it?"
#2: "Whatcha gonna paint it?"

After rereading the first post, I don't think the original intent of this thread had anything whatsoever to do with paint/no paint, C/S props or how well appointed our instrument panel happens to be. Rather, the conclusion I draw is that deviating from the plans comes at a cost yet there are some builders who are quick to offer a full spectrum of advice even though they have yet to complete and fly their own RV. :rolleyes:
 
Rick6a said:
Is there any builder anywhere out there who has not endured these two endlessly asked questions?

#1: "When you gonna fly it?"
#2: "Whatcha gonna paint it?"

After rereading the first post, I don't think the original intent of this thread had anything whatsoever to do with paint/no paint, C/S props or how well appointed our instrument panel happens to be. Rather, the conclusion I draw is that deviating from the plans comes at a cost yet there are some builders who are quick to offer a full spectrum of advice even though they have yet to complete and fly their own RV. :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

Rick really hits the nail on the head here. After many years of being involved with RV's, and having built my first one long before this website ever came into existence it's a whole new world. A world of instant information for RV builders, but along with that comes a world of instant opinions. The good thing is that we all are entitled to our own opinions. The difficult thing is sorting out opinions that are posted on subjects by people who are opining and presenting expert testimony without having ever finished a plane. Things like people giving advice on engines, panels, canopies, etc....while still building their tails or wings. This isn't to slam people who do offer their opinions, it's just to make the point that sometimes the level of experience behind said opinions can vary greatly depending on what people have done. You'll also find that original opinions/suggestions are likely to change once the plane is done and flying.

It can be difficult for a new builder to sort the wheat from the chaff when there are thousands upon thousands of pages of information available. Some good points about mods have been made. Another good point is that most first time builders will do many, many more "mods" than experienced builders. First time builders (myself included) will spend an agonizing amount of time trying to make decisions. By the time you're on your 2nd, 3rd, or more RV, you learn that many of the things that people said you really "need to do" were either a waste of time, energy, money, weight or combinations thereof. The best mod you can make is to build the plane the way YOU want to, WHEN you want to and HOW you want to. I'm not saying that people should ignore suggestions or ignore advice, just be mindful of what and where the advice is coming from. Not all suggestions are bad, in fact many are GREAT (I have and do use an awful lot of them myself), but I'm careful to pay attention to what/where it comes from.

The only advice I can give after doing many of these thing is to just go DO IT - no matter what, how, when - just do it. The one thing I often see is people agonizing or discussing for days, weeks or months on something that they shouldn't. The neat thing is that as a homebuilder you get to do what you want, how you want it and when you want to do it. Believe me, I know where ya'll are coming from. I've been there with my RV's and I'm now there with my Mullicoupe...the difference is that with my current project there is NO support group at all, so getting any suggestions/help/opinions is near to impossible. I've spent months tracking down things like a dumb door handle, a Super18 carb air box for a 985, a specific oil cooler from a KingAir, a new set of Twin Beech cowl bumpers, and an NOS Staggerwing door latch! Makes me really appreciate the RV world even more.

My 2 cents as usual - and just another opinion! :)

Cheers,
Stein
 
Bob Collins said:
Yeah, that's just what I needed -- to feel like a second-rate member of VAF because my plane isn't done yet. :eek:

Now if anyone who is concerned a bout that would like to fly up to KSGS and pitch in on the wiring....

There's only one incorrect way to build an RV airplane -- on someone else's terms. I just hate it when other people try to make the rules. I'm building it. I'm paying for it. It'll be done when I say it's done.
Click to expand...

Couldn't agree more :) It's my time, my money, my house (I had to "redecorate" to build). And I listen to the opinions I want to listen to. If they only have done one rivet or built a dozen planes, it doesn't matter to me. I good idea is a good idea no matter who it comes from.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top